Over a cartoon?

Christianity is a loving peaceful religion too.

'cept for the crusades.

and Christians who bomb abortion clinics in God's name.

and that Fred Phelps guy. 

 I will give you the last two with little argument... embarassing situations where people took their religon too far (extremists exist on both sides). 

As for the crusades:  1) Happened hundreds of years ago... to compare the two is to say that those countires lag that far behind in civility and culture.  2) In addition, the crusades were a campaign to take back Christian lands that the Muslims had taken by force.  But that's a very dicey topic that I will avoid here.

Back to the last two... I really want to believe that that type of behavior is the extremists.  The vocal minority.  The article in fact gives examples of peaceful protesting by Muslims in the UK.  I think is speacks more poorly about those countries than it does about the followers of Mohammed.  I have worked with and been aquainted with several who are just as peace loving as any Christian.  What's scary is when an entire country seems to adopt the "extremist viewpoint".  Either the gov't is so pathetic that it can't prevent that with police force/militia or that type of behavior is acceptable... which again goes back to why I'm really glad they don't have a big red button to push.

bts 

Bottom line is that there are bad apples in who claim to be associated with all types of religious and non religious groups. Along with bad atheists, agnostics etc etc.

There will always be extremists.  If anyine wants to judge a group as a whole because of the past history of a few well IMO they aren't very educated people.

The Crusades have already been discussed here.  On the latter two subjects however:  The abortion clinic bombings are abhorent, but they're carried out by a few, mostly lone, psychos.  Fred Phelps...again, lone psycho.  Not by any stretch of the imagination the throngs of tens of thousands of "peace loving" fanatics who are burning embassies and threatening anyone who dares to have a differing opinion with death.

I don't know how much is religion as it is a way to vent some fairly intense pent-up rage.

Since September 11, the whole Muslim world, both peace-loving and extremist, has been subject to significant, widespread vilification. I cannot help but think that has an equally widespread and pernicious effect on people, and that this may have served as the straw that broke the proverbial camel's back.

It's not religious-based, but in terms of a comparison I lived through, I'm thinking about the L.A. riots. A (much more horrible) incident sparks widespread rioting and violence. It was in the people's own neighborhoods for the most part, so not productive. People outside reacted to it with equal disbelief and statements saying that it just proved the stereotypes. I don't think it did/does. I think it goes back to what others have said: there will always be some people who are willing to pick up the first brick and light the first match. And if a situation is created where other people feel badly enough, there can be more of them than usually. And as usual, there will be people with other agendas, on both sides, who will exploit those willing to turn to violence for their own ends. Disturbing all the way around.

It was the straw for those folks in L.A. and I think this was the straw/catalyst for the ones burning and boycotting Danish cheese in the Middle East. The sales of Danish products have dropped to near nil in several middleastern countries--that is what the other enraged yet not violent people are doing.

Not productive (the rioting), but I don't think as frivolous as people are making it out to be, either.

NB: I am NOT suggesting that the cartoon in question is on par with the Rodney King trial decision. I am using it as an example of an incident that had consequences that some people outside the situation saw as excessive and unnecessary.

Hmmm...Let's see , let me run down my list of current atrocities to see which were done in the name of Jesus.

Embassies burned........none

Car bombs........ah none

Suicide bombers.........nope

Beheadings........ah no, none here

Kidnappings........don't see any

Crashing planes into buildings......can't say I see any

Seeking the destruction of an entire nation.....ah no.

On and on and on.

Quit coming up with unfair comparasions in an effort to bring my faith down to their level. I know I'll catch a lot of flack for this but I've said it before .... the sooner we come to grips with the base issue of the worlds terrorism effort the better we will defend against it.

Islam hates Israel and all those who support it (us the US) and seeks the destruction of both.

btw when abortion clinic bombers are caught they are punished.....not rewarded. As for self proclaimed ministers who spread hate, well we expose them for what they are and we have.

Let the Christian bashing begin.

Um...um

 Never mind--I have to go to work.
 

definitely didn't mean to start a Christian bashing angle on this!  I am a Christian, and I love my faith!

I was just trying to say, not very well obviously, that Islam can be a peace loving religion as is Christianity, but have still have peple who intrepret scripture according to their own agenda. There is way more to Muslim extremism than just religious jihad.  I think a lot of the violence and terror that is done in the name of jihad is in response to other forces. Ther eis NO justification or excuse for the kind of evil done in God's name, whether you call him Allah, Jehovah, or anything else...

bowing out now.  My NY's resolution was to stay out of politics and religion on BT. Oops.  

IMHO...

I think The Muslims are generally peaceful.  It's the terrorist/crazy people who have the pwoer who are controlling the minds of the Muslims there. 

A true peaceful protest may take the form of a demonstration (without fighting), or in this case, they can boycott Danish goods (the cartoon originates in Denmark, correct if I'm wrong).  There is no need of bombing and blood-shedding. 

I think what you're seeing in the case of Islam is the end result of what happens when the church runs the state. More and more, our beloved country is taking on the look of a theocratic state, and it's terribly ironic. We want to tear down Islam-based theocracies because they breed violence, oppress people and harbor terrorism. But here at home, we try to enact laws based on faith, elect leaders based on faith and appoint judges based on faith.

How is that any better? Is it just "our faith is better than yours"? Because if that's the case, well, isn't that why our forefathers left Europe in the first place, to escape that sort of mentality?

And as far as the crusades go, one could argue that our middle east policy is very crusade-like. Heck, early on W even used that term, but quickly backed off of it.

I'm with Possum on this.  There is a Muslim...well, "club" is a bad word, maybe "group" or "faction" is a better term....anyway, a Muslim group on our campus who every once in a while (at VERY appropriate times I might add) puts out a table with pamphlets explaining some of thier beliefs.  I took one out of curiousity and foun dnothing terribly objectionable in it.  I feel badly for moderate Muslims who are trying to separate themselves from thier more radical counterparts. 

In my mind, associating all moderate peaceful Muslims with extremists based soley on thier religion is no different than associating me with Fred Phelps simply because we both call ourselves Christians. Just as my views are quite different from his, so might moderate Muslims' views be different from radical Muslims. 

Simplistic overview:

• It is considered sacrilegious to produce images of the Prophet Mohammed; the Muslim faith preaches against idolatry and images are considered idolatry. Drawing a bomb in his turban is beyond the pale for some Muslims.
• While the West values Freedom over Expression over Respect for Sacred Cows (so to speak), this is not the case in much of the rest of the world. Our freedom of expression values are not universal and people of different values will see things quite differently.
• I heard on the news that the SuperBowl celebrations were 'peaceful' which reminded me of times when our own happy citizens rioted in the streets, overturning or torching cars in celebration of their winning team. We aren't that different, really, from the rest of the world; we just like to think we are.
• Our own DonTracy was offended by the appropriation of a religious painting by Planned Parenthood (in their condom use campaign). It's not difficult to understand why someone of deep faith would take offense to having their particular 'sacred cow' being caricaturized.
• Not all Muslims are rioting, just the riff-raff. (Just like not all football or soccer fans riot, just the riff raff.)

I certainly did not mean to offend anyone and apologize if I did. Early morning rant.

I'd like to say it was my steroids conflicting with my prozac, pain pills and muscle relaxers but it wasn't. Just an early observation that I took mistakenly took offense to.

Hope all is well.

That reminds me of the picture I saw this morning at one of the protests of a gent with his face wrapped holding up a sign saying "Freedom Go to Hell."  I guess some folks really do choke on the sweet air of freedom.

bts

(go to hell.jpg)

I read this and found it clearly illuminates why Muslims are offended. Like I said above, different values - but we hold to our respective values just as tightly. We (the West) would no sooner allow someone to strip us of our right to offend free speech than some Muslims would allow someone to use an image of Mohammed to make a political statement.

Summing up the cultural rift between Islam and the West, imam Ahmed Abu Laban told worshippers at Friday prayers in a Copenhagen mosque: ''In the West, freedom of speech is sacred; to us, the prophet is sacred.''

Religious zealots of any stripe are dangerous. Methinks the extremists are using this opportunity to vent their spleen.

Well, just from personal experience, I have never had a negative experience with any Muslim I have ever met or spent time with. Just the opposite. I'm been welcomed into homes and gatherings with a wonderful degree of graciousness and hospitality.

One thing I've come to understand is that I know very little about Islam. I do know how often Christianity, and for me particularly Catholicism, is misunderstood by the Media and folks in general. So I'm hesitant to paint a world religion with a broad brush dipped in the paint of extremism.

My four year old's best friend is Muslim. It's been great to get to know his family and to be able to talk freely with them about theology. We clearly disagree profoundly about some things, but we find common ground in the fact that we are children of Abraham, and that we worship the same God.

Long term goal for myself: study the Koran so that I can understand all of this better.

I don't know, Chris, I haven't read the entire Christian Bible.

I do know various Christian sects quarrel over whether the use of icons is appropriate. If I'm not mistaken (please correct me if I'm wrong), the Puritans or the Reformists railed against religious icons. I have some hazy recollection of a violent time in European history (can't remember which nation) when icons were destroyed, considered idolatrous.

Catholics wear the Crucifix (Jesus on the Cross) but some Baptists might say "Christ has risen, why is he on your crucifix?" Everyone has an opinion on the use/misuse of religious imagery.

Wait - are you talking about worshipping pagan idols or worshipping icons of saints, the Virgin Mary, etc?

So, Don was offended..did he go burn the place down or blow it up...NO! I keep hearing about all these peaceful Moslims but I'm not seeing them. To listen to some folks you'd think they are all really John Lennon in a turbin singing "give peace a chance". If the overwhelming majority are peace loving,freedom seeking choir boys then why don't they enact laws to control the riff raff. What's that... their rulers don't allow that....well what say they get a little in house revolution going, maybe draft a constitution, elect some leaders who will enforce their desire for peaceful coexistence with the rest of the world. I mean if 99.9% of Muslims want to live peacefully with Israel and allow those who want to convert to Christianity to do so with suffering death then I say let's see that majority step up to the plate.

Ain't gonna happen bubba. We've seen a few radicals in this country and I do mean a few. We dealt with them and either executed them or locked them away. Moslim radicals are not only tolerated, they are considered heroes and martyrs. The great majority of Muslims give them quiet approval and silent support.

Research this a bit and you will find that many many thousands of Muslims in the Middle East and around the world attended candlelight vigils to show solidarity and respect for the victims of 9/11 and their families and their opposition to terrorism after the attacks in New York, Washington and Pennsylvania. They outnumbered the militants who celebrated by a wide margin.

Your gross generalization is, in fact, quite wrong.

There are two issues there:

• Why Muslims are offended by the caricatures of Mohammed (using the analogy of Don's distress of the use/misuse of religious images that are sacred in his eyes)
• Riff raff activities

To equate all Muslims with RiffRaff is unfair and an unsupportable argument.

Muslims make-up approx. 22% of the world population; Christians makeup approx 33% of the world population. If all Muslims were crazed militants, this planet would be burning to cinders as I type this.

I think most of us cannot say we understand "Muslim" thinking anymore than we can say we understand "Christian" thinking. Both are composed of broad and disparate sects;  both have nasty adherents as well as peaceful adherents. But I digress... it's probably more intellectually honest to say "I don't understand this" than to say "From the actions of a few, I can draw the logical conclusion that all Muslims are violent."