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2012-02-16 12:10 PM

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Subject: Should we lawyer up?

Short version: Wife tore her ACL in taekwondo free sparring.  We are claiming the owner is liable because:

1. She was kicked by another sparring tandem (spacing/safe conditions weren't maintained)

2. As a white belt, she shouldn't have been free-sparring.

The owner agreed to submit a claim through his insurance.  We're currently not concerned about anything other than direct, out of pocket expenses, currently <$10K for the surgery and rehab (that's just our share, the cost to our insurance is greater).

Received a request from a field investigator with the insurance company for a statement from my wife.

Given that the insurance agency will not be working on our behalf, should we go into this meeting with or without an attorney?

To be honest, I've been pollyanishly hoping that we just get through the meeting, and receive a check in a few weeks.



2012-02-16 12:59 PM
in reply to: #4050963

Master
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Subject: RE: Should we lawyer up?
You probably signed a waiver when you started.  Good luck getting around that.  Martial arts are an inherently dangerous sport.  I'm all for exercising your rights but I don't think you'll get very far.  If you ware walking down a sidewalk and they were demonstrating and one of them kicked you then you would have a very good case.
2012-02-16 1:09 PM
in reply to: #4050963

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Subject: RE: Should we lawyer up?

I am not a lawyer, but I would not think you'd be entitled to anything IMO.

please keep us up to date, I'd like to hear how it goes.

2012-02-16 1:12 PM
in reply to: #4050963

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Subject: RE: Should we lawyer up?

Lawyer up?  Are you kidding? 

Honestly not trying to be a d-bag but you are actually going to sue because your wife chose to participate in martial arts and got hurt?

2012-02-16 1:17 PM
in reply to: #4051106

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Subject: RE: Should we lawyer up?
Sous - 2012-02-16 1:12 PM

Lawyer up?  Are you kidding? 

Honestly not trying to be a d-bag but you are actually going to sue because your wife chose to participate in martial arts and got hurt?

What he said

2012-02-16 1:18 PM
in reply to: #4050963

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Subject: RE: Should we lawyer up?
They're either liable or they're not. You can't just go after your portion of the medical bills; you go after the entire cost of medical treatment and then reimburse whomever has paid a bill already (your medical insurance).

And yeah; martial atrs is a known hazard when you enter into it. I'd say you have no grounds for an argument or a suit. You wouldn't want me on the jury.


2012-02-16 1:27 PM
in reply to: #4051125

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Subject: RE: Should we lawyer up?

pitt83 - 2012-02-16 1:18 PM They're either liable or they're not. You can't just go after your portion of the medical bills; you go after the entire cost of medical treatment and then reimburse whomever has paid a bill already (your medical insurance).

I've been trying to type this same notion up succintly. Thanks for doing it for me. If the OP had not asked for a claim to be filed, it's likely his/her insurance would have investigated anyway, possibly leading to a claim nevertheless. Let the 2 companies duke it out.

2012-02-16 1:29 PM
in reply to: #4050963

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Subject: RE: Should we lawyer up?
It doesn't sound like the OP is asking about a lawyer to sue, per se, but if they should have one to represent them with the insurance investigator. 
2012-02-16 1:30 PM
in reply to: #4050963

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Subject: RE: Should we lawyer up?
roch1009 - 2012-02-16 10:10 AM

Short version: Wife tore her ACL in taekwondo free sparring.  We are claiming the owner is liable because:

1. She was kicked by another sparring tandem (spacing/safe conditions weren't maintained)

Questions asked seriously

So, she was out sparring and got kicked by one of another pair sparring?  Is there a std for spacing/safe conditions?  Did she notknow there were other sparring partners out there?  Did she not perhaps get in their way?

2. As a white belt, she shouldn't have been free-sparring.

So, why was she?  When the instructor said "go free spar" why did she do it?

The owner agreed to submit a claim through his insurance.  We're currently not concerned about anything other than direct, out of pocket expenses, currently

Ouch, that's a lot of money but besides whether you should or not, I think you'd have several pretty high hurdles to get over.  The first is probably a waiver, which may or may not be legal/apply/bar the suit.  But you can bet the insurance company (that hires the lawyers) will fight it tooth and nail.  Second is her own conduct and participation.

Wait and see what the insurance says. I am sure you could probably find a lawyer to take the case, but you want a really good one, not just someone out for a buck

2012-02-16 1:32 PM
in reply to: #4051157

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Subject: RE: Should we lawyer up?

abqtj - 2012-02-16 2:29 PM It doesn't sound like the OP is asking about a lawyer to sue, per se, but if they should have one to represent them with the insurance investigator. 

But taekwondo is inherently dangerous!

 

 

 

 

2012-02-16 1:32 PM
in reply to: #4050963

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Subject: RE: Should we lawyer up?
'She tore her ACL free sparring, but as a white belt she shouldn't have been free sparring?'

Did the owner/instructor force your wife to participate? Kinda doubt it. If she 'shouldn't' have been doing it then she should of said no. Obviously she made a choice to do it so now she should accept the consequence and move on.


2012-02-16 1:34 PM
in reply to: #4051162

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Subject: RE: Should we lawyer up?
Goosedog - 2012-02-16 12:32 PM

abqtj - 2012-02-16 2:29 PM It doesn't sound like the OP is asking about a lawyer to sue, per se, but if they should have one to represent them with the insurance investigator. 

But taekwondo is inherently dangerous!

 

 

 

 

 

agreed! 

2012-02-16 1:34 PM
in reply to: #4050963

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Subject: RE: Should we lawyer up?
I did martial arts for a long time and one night, my dad was training with another member of class and wound up falling and breaking his collar bone. No lawsuit because it was "an accident" and nothing really could have been done to prevent it. Also, we are adults and aknowledge the risks associated with the sport prior to participating. Even if the "Safe conditions" were maintained, what is there to say that she couldnt have tore her ACL from moving around during the sparring match, despite being geared up, on a mat, with people watching, etc? I mean it happens to people all the time, just by moving in a certain way. As for her being a white belt and not supposed to be sparring, it is a class and you learn by doing so at some point she would have to spar. ALso, if she thought it was unsafe,  she could have said no and not participated. Please dont read this an think I am blasting you because I am not, I am just making arguments that the owner/his lawyers will probably make if you were to sue them. I am not a lawyer but IMHO I dont think you have a lawsuit on your hands at all. I pray that your wife gets better and has a full recovery from her injury. Please keep us updated with the situation because I am interested to see what happens.
2012-02-16 1:38 PM
in reply to: #4050963

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Subject: RE: Should we lawyer up?

Listen, don't listen to these people saying move on.  Insurance exists for a reason, maybe you can get some relief.  Do listen to ChrisM, you've got some hurdles.  But, like everything, there is probably more to the story than contained in your post.  To answer your question, many of these interviews are conducted without attorneys.  However, rest assured, the investigator will be trying to obtain information that will get the owner's insurance company off the hook.  As mentioned, your insurance company will want to keep them on the hook.  I would let your insurance company know you are being interviewed.  They might have an interest in protecting you.

 

 

 

2012-02-16 2:00 PM
in reply to: #4051183

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Subject: RE: Should we lawyer up?
Goosedog - 2012-02-16 1:38 PM

Listen, don't listen to these people saying move on.  Insurance exists for a reason, maybe you can get some relief.  Do listen to ChrisM, you've got some hurdles.  But, like everything, there is probably more to the story than contained in your post.  To answer your question, many of these interviews are conducted without attorneys.  However, rest assured, the investigator will be trying to obtain information that will get the owner's insurance company off the hook.  As mentioned, your insurance company will want to keep them on the hook.  I would let your insurance company know you are being interviewed.  They might have an interest in protecting you.

This is what I would do. Since the case will really be between insurances, they should be made aware.  Otherwise I would do the interview, answer what is asked of me plainly, and stop the meeting if I am uncomfortable.  Maybe you can videotape it, too. 

I often forget that even if I am not at fault, my insurance is there to help.  This is also true with auto accidents. I don't have to call the other person's insurance if they hit me, my insurance will do it even if they aren't the ones paying.  Use the resource you are paying for.

2012-02-16 2:21 PM
in reply to: #4050963

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Subject: RE: Should we lawyer up?

The OP says that the "insurance agency will not be working on our behalf" I assume this to mean their (OP's) insurance agency. 

That said, the dojo's insuranace agency is looking for info from the OP's wife to use to deny the dojo's claim for any and all damages.  If this happens, then the OP will be left with all of their out of pocket costs which they are "concerned" about.

Seems to me, the next scenario would for the OP to sue for out of pocket costs, thus best to lawyer up now.  Or realize that anything in life is dangerous (as triathlete we should all be very familiar with this) but practicing martial arts is probably close to the top of the list.



2012-02-16 2:32 PM
in reply to: #4051106

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Subject: RE: Should we lawyer up?
Sous - 2012-02-16 1:12 PM

Lawyer up?  Are you kidding? 

Honestly not trying to be a d-bag but you are actually going to sue because your wife chose to participate in martial arts and got hurt?

Agreed.If you feel she shouldn't have been sparring why was she? Her body, she controls it, her choice to do something that got her injured.
2012-02-16 2:39 PM
in reply to: #4051337

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Subject: RE: Should we lawyer up?

KeriKadi - 2012-02-16 3:32 PM Agreed.If you feel she shouldn't have been sparring why was she? Her body, she controls it, her choice to do something that got her injured.

I know nothing of taekwondo.  However, the OP's wife paid an instructor for taekwondo instruction.  She hired a pro (presumably).  Let's believe the OP that white belts shouldn't be sparring.  Maybe it's some sort of standard.  OP's wife doesn't know any different - that's why she hired an instructor.  So, she sparred when she was instructed and got injured.

Let me try an example.  I hire a certified swim instructor for lessons.  I'm new.  Instructor wants me to "build my lung capacity" and has me doing 25s with 3, 2 then 1 breath.  The organization that certified the instructor has a standard that says I should not be doing these sets.  I black out and drown.  Should I have known better?

 

 

 



Edited by Goosedog 2012-02-16 2:40 PM
2012-02-16 3:05 PM
in reply to: #4051348

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Subject: RE: Should we lawyer up?
Goosedog - 2012-02-16 2:39 PM

KeriKadi - 2012-02-16 3:32 PM Agreed.If you feel she shouldn't have been sparring why was she? Her body, she controls it, her choice to do something that got her injured.

I know nothing of taekwondo.  However, the OP's wife paid an instructor for taekwondo instruction.  She hired a pro (presumably).  Let's believe the OP that white belts shouldn't be sparring.  Maybe it's some sort of standard.  OP's wife doesn't know any different - that's why she hired an instructor.  So, she sparred when she was instructed and got injured.

Let me try an example.  I hire a certified swim instructor for lessons.  I'm new.  Instructor wants me to "build my lung capacity" and has me doing 25s with 3, 2 then 1 breath.  The organization that certified the instructor has a standard that says I should not be doing these sets.  I black out and drown.  Should I have known better?

 

Standards and Guidlines are not laws.  If you couldn't do the work out or were struggling than you should have stopped.  An adult should know their limits and make the choice before getting on a mat or jumping in the water.

Also, the wife did not get hurt from sparring with a partner.  It was an outside accident that occured.

2012-02-16 3:07 PM
in reply to: #4051395

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Subject: RE: Should we lawyer up?
Bmel - 2012-02-16 4:05 PM

Standards and Guidlines are not laws.  If you couldn't do the work out or were struggling than you should have stopped.  An adult should know their limits and make the choice before getting on a mat or jumping in the water.

You don't have to break a law to be held legally responsible. 

In my example of the "hypoxic" sets, the point is to struggle.  Also, it's my understanding that the swimmer would not realize that they are about to black out before it happens. 

 

 

 



Edited by Goosedog 2012-02-16 3:09 PM
2012-02-16 3:10 PM
in reply to: #4050963

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Subject: RE: Should we lawyer up?

The OP says that the "insurance agency will not be working on our behalf" I assume this to mean their (OP's) insurance agency.

I thought this meant the dojo, which is why you should have YOUR insurance deal with them.  If the dojo's insurance wants to talk to you on the phone or in person, refer them to your own insurance company first, or make sure you have your own representative in a meeting.

You could get your own attorney but that's an additional cost for what your own insurance should be doing in the first place.  If you don't have your own insurance, then all bets are off...



Edited by spudone 2012-02-16 3:10 PM


2012-02-16 3:10 PM
in reply to: #4051348

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Subject: RE: Should we lawyer up?
Goosedog - 2012-02-16 12:39 PM

KeriKadi - 2012-02-16 3:32 PM Agreed.If you feel she shouldn't have been sparring why was she? Her body, she controls it, her choice to do something that got her injured.

I know nothing of taekwondo.  However, the OP's wife paid an instructor for taekwondo instruction.  She hired a pro (presumably).  Let's believe the OP that white belts shouldn't be sparring.  Maybe it's some sort of standard.  OP's wife doesn't know any different - that's why she hired an instructor.  So, she sparred when she was instructed and got injured.

Let me try an example.  I hire a certified swim instructor for lessons.  I'm new.  Instructor wants me to "build my lung capacity" and has me doing 25s with 3, 2 then 1 breath.  The organization that certified the instructor has a standard that says I should not be doing these sets.  I black out and drown.  Should I have known better?

 

Guess we need to know how OP knows a white belt shouldn't be sparring.  If she knew it going in.......

Even without a waiver, every state has different laws on assumption of the risk, but as a general statement most states probably follow something along the lines that the participant assumes the risk of an inherently dangerous activity, and so long as the potential defendant does not unreasonably increase those inherent risks involved in the sport, then there is likely no liability.  Inherent risks are those without which the activity can't be performed.  Foul balls, for example.  Can't go watch a game without risking getting hit by a foul ball.

Getting kicked is an inherent risk of TKD I assume.  Did the instructor do something to increase the risk of that?  OP says yes, because didn't space out the figheters enough.  But did that increase the risk?  Or just make getting kicked more possible?  It's a hard factual question.  It's not really as much about what the plaintiff should have known (because every plaintiff, rightly or wrongly, comes to court pleading ignorance of the risks), but about what the defendant did. 

However, the plaintiff may get hit with their own comparative negligence if it ever gets to trial (reduction of damages based on percentage of liability).

2012-02-16 3:11 PM
in reply to: #4051348

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Subject: RE: Should we lawyer up?
Goosedog - 2012-02-16 3:39 PM

KeriKadi - 2012-02-16 3:32 PM Agreed.If you feel she shouldn't have been sparring why was she? Her body, she controls it, her choice to do something that got her injured.

I know nothing of taekwondo.  However, the OP's wife paid an instructor for taekwondo instruction.  She hired a pro (presumably).  Let's believe the OP that white belts shouldn't be sparring.  Maybe it's some sort of standard.  OP's wife doesn't know any different - that's why she hired an instructor.  So, she sparred when she was instructed and got injured.

Let me try an example.  I hire a certified swim instructor for lessons.  I'm new.  Instructor wants me to "build my lung capacity" and has me doing 25s with 3, 2 then 1 breath.  The organization that certified the instructor has a standard that says I should not be doing these sets.  I black out and drown.  Should I have known better?

 

I give you that, but the OP also said that the injury happened because some other sparring team hit/bumped into/whatever his wife.  This could happen whether she was a white belt or a Bruce Lee belt... accidents happen.  More so, I imagine, in a fighting sport.

It's not like your scenario where the activity was inherently too dangerous, but more that an accident happened while doing the activity.  Now if the white belt was sparring and this is a no/no per industry standard and her sparring partner beat her to a bloody pulp, that's another story.

2012-02-16 3:14 PM
in reply to: #4050963

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Subject: RE: Should we lawyer up?

only because you're asking for opinions:

I don't see how the teacher/facility is responsible for anything in this case.  She voluntarily participated in a known physically dangerous activity where she could potentially be hurt.

Torn ACL comes with the territory.  You hope it doesn't happen, but know that it can.  Can't sue someone for your wife not saying "no".  (well I guess you can, but I'm not sure you have very good grounds)

So no, I wouldn't lawyer up.  I'd go to the doctor and schedule a surgery and put it on my own insurance.

I'm sorry that happened to your wife either way.

2012-02-16 3:16 PM
in reply to: #4051413

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Subject: RE: Should we lawyer up?
Sous - 2012-02-16 4:11 PM

I give you that, but the OP also said that the injury happened because some other sparring team hit/bumped into/whatever his wife.  This could happen whether she was a white belt or a Bruce Lee belt... accidents happen.  More so, I imagine, in a fighting sport.

It's not like your scenario where the activity was inherently too dangerous, but more that an accident happened while doing the activity.  Now if the white belt was sparring and this is a no/no per industry standard and her sparring partner beat her to a bloody pulp, that's another story.

All good points.  But, none of that would lead me to tell the OP that they should just not worry about it and move on because his wife should have known better.  The are some possibly good factors for the OP (1) the sparring groups weren't separated by a safe distance, and maybe (2) the instructors had inexperienced students sparring.  Maybe both were violations of some standard.  That would be good for the OP.

 

 

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