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2013-12-06 10:55 AM

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Subject: Protests for $15 an hour minimum wage
Does anyone think that artificially raising the cost of low skilled labor for fast food restaurants does much else than increase the speed at which these jobs are automated? If anything like this is put in place I believe for a short time a large number of these employees will make more money, but I can ask my phone for directions so it isn't a huge leap for me to ask a computer for a number 5 with a diet coke. Worst case I put the order into a kiosk or smart phone.

I believe the problem is that people are attempting to support families with jobs that require little manual labor and very little skills. These types of jobs are meant for teenagers and college students. We need to invest in increasing the skillset of these employees so they can create larger marginal impacts to their firms. This can be done through lowering the cost of college, but also investing in trade school type training.


2013-12-06 11:22 AM
in reply to: jmcconne

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Subject: RE: Protests for $15 an hour minimum wage

 

Ridiculous IMO. I know lots of college grads that don't make $15 an hour around here. Heck the cushy government jobs around here start around $12.

Besides, it does no good to raise the min to $15. So a burger at McD's costs $1.50 today, raise the wage and it goes to $3.00 or more, that extra income is just going to go to increased prices. Raise the min for the Walmart workers and that $2 gallon of milk is now $5. 

I agree with your point on low skilled jobs. An entry level McD's job was never meant to provide for a family of 4. Heck my wife and I both make good money and we are putting away as much money as we can before we have kids because we know it will be much harder financially once we have them. That is called being responsible instead of breeding kids for the tax break or due to irresponsibility, and then complaining that you can't make more than $8 an hour at your high school drop out burger flipping job. 

Wow, there was a rant.

2013-12-06 11:27 AM
in reply to: jmcconne

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Subject: RE: Protests for $15 an hour minimum wage

My initial thought is that would certainly factor in one's perception of opportunity cost.  Why rack up debt on a 2yr trade when you will end up making about the same amount flipping burgers?  More importantly, total compensation (salary, housing, food, medical) in the early years of military service would be around the equivalent of a fry cook.  I want someone to explain how that is "fair" in their world.  I suppose that a McDonalds drive-through worker in Detroit may face a similar risk in terms of safety but it wouldn't be close in terms of the responsibility.

2013-12-06 11:48 AM
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Subject: RE: Protests for $15 an hour minimum wage
Touch screens and swipe cards are already here. Soon they'll be apps where you order ahead or while in line. Within 5-7 years you won't order with a person in most fast food establishments beyond the ones who pride themselves on customer service (Five Guys, Chic-Fli-A, etc). Wait staff at chain sit-down restaurants will disappear to some extent with Ipad ordering. Hell, a recent Domino's Pizza TV ad admitted calling on the phone sucks and rather than making that better they just encourage you to order online. That requires 1-2 less employees per store to run phones and enter orders.

Employees will make food, deliver food, and give you refills and even that has decreased in recent years with DIY drink machines.

For better-or-worse these low paying service jobs will disappear regardless of an increase in wages.

Edited by Mtneer 2013-12-06 11:49 AM
2013-12-06 12:51 PM
in reply to: Mtneer

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Subject: RE: Protests for $15 an hour minimum wage

Asking for $15 minimum wage is simply people wanting more money to do the same thing their doing now out of a pure sense of entitlement.  They haven't thought about the effects of raising the minimum wage, nor are they wanting to do anything to improve their position.  They just want more and don't care how they get it.

2013-12-06 1:23 PM
in reply to: Mtneer

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Subject: RE: Protests for $15 an hour minimum wage

Originally posted by Mtneer Touch screens and swipe cards are already here. Soon they'll be apps where you order ahead or while in line. Within 5-7 years you won't order with a person in most fast food establishments beyond the ones who pride themselves on customer service (Five Guys, Chic-Fli-A, etc). Wait staff at chain sit-down restaurants will disappear to some extent with Ipad ordering. Hell, a recent Domino's Pizza TV ad admitted calling on the phone sucks and rather than making that better they just encourage you to order online. That requires 1-2 less employees per store to run phones and enter orders. Employees will make food, deliver food, and give you refills and even that has decreased in recent years with DIY drink machines. For better-or-worse these low paying service jobs will disappear regardless of an increase in wages.

Over the summer while in Milwaukee for Nats, we went to a chili's and they had tablets that you could use to order food and drinks from your table.  People just brought your food out when it was ready.  And your kids could play games on the tablet while you waited.  



2013-12-06 1:55 PM
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Subject: RE: Protests for $15 an hour minimum wage
Originally posted by Mtneer

Touch screens and swipe cards are already here. Soon they'll be apps where you order ahead or while in line. Within 5-7 years you won't order with a person in most fast food establishments beyond the ones who pride themselves on customer service (Five Guys, Chic-Fli-A, etc). Wait staff at chain sit-down restaurants will disappear to some extent with Ipad ordering. Hell, a recent Domino's Pizza TV ad admitted calling on the phone sucks and rather than making that better they just encourage you to order online. That requires 1-2 less employees per store to run phones and enter orders.

Employees will make food, deliver food, and give you refills and even that has decreased in recent years with DIY drink machines.

For better-or-worse these low paying service jobs will disappear regardless of an increase in wages.




Perhaps they will disappear sooner than we think. Here is a link fast food workers should read before they strike.

http://www.dvice.com/archives/2012/11/burger_making_r.php






Edited by NXS 2013-12-06 1:56 PM
2013-12-06 2:08 PM
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Subject: RE: Protests for $15 an hour minimum wage
Originally posted by Aarondb4

 

Ridiculous IMO. I know lots of college grads that don't make $15 an hour around here. Heck the cushy government jobs around here start around $12.

Besides, it does no good to raise the min to $15. So a burger at McD's costs $1.50 today, raise the wage and it goes to $3.00 or more, that extra income is just going to go to increased prices. Raise the min for the Walmart workers and that $2 gallon of milk is now $5. 

I agree with your point on low skilled jobs. An entry level McD's job was never meant to provide for a family of 4. Heck my wife and I both make good money and we are putting away as much money as we can before we have kids because we know it will be much harder financially once we have them. That is called being responsible instead of breeding kids for the tax break or due to irresponsibility, and then complaining that you can't make more than $8 an hour at your high school drop out burger flipping job. 

Wow, there was a rant.




The price thing is only true if 100% of their costs are only the wages they pay out. Obviously the prices would increase somewhat to offset the increased expenses but I bet they increase less than the wages. Then again, we're ignoring the fact that the fast food industry is ignoring the external costs of their employees and foisting it off on the taxpayers to help support these people instead of paying them a better wage.

Taking a step back from a broader perspective, I think this automated fast food thing is a big deal. If you remove these bottom rung jobs from the social job ladder, there are a lot of people who won't be able to get a job. Everyone on here always says they'd take a job at Mcdonalds if they got laid off, well what if those jobs are all gone? I think it will eventually lead to social unrest.

Edited by JoshR 2013-12-06 2:09 PM
2013-12-06 2:59 PM
in reply to: jmcconne

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Subject: RE: Protests for $15 an hour minimum wage

When I'm at the grocery store, if there's no line at the self-checkout registers then that's where I go.  But if there's a line, I'm going to a human cashier every single time.  That's the thing with the automated, self serving systems.  It's only as good as the person in front of you.  And inevitably, the person in front of me is a complete moron.  These things have been around for years,  all you have to do is swipe a barcode across a scanner, but for some reason it still befuddles people.

McDonalds doesn't need to create a system that'll work for the customer with average intelligence.  They need to create a system that is usable by the absolute dumbest person that walks through their door.  It's got to have pictures for the illiterate, an idiot-proof way to supersize you fries or order a burger with no ketchup.  Until they can figure out how to cater to the truly stupid, they'll have no choice but to continue to employ human cashiers.  On the other hand, having to pay them $15/hour might motivate McDonalds to put a little more effort in to developing that idiot-proof system.

2013-12-06 4:45 PM
in reply to: jmcconne

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Subject: RE: Protests for $15 an hour minimum wage
I have a few thoughts:

1) If the Democrats can pull this off it will be a masterful stroke. Millions of people who now qualify for obamacare subsidies will no longer be eligible. All those people will have to pay for their own insurance!

2) Tablets tableside are already here. My wife and daughter went out to a sit down chain (I forget which one) and told me all about it. This was several months ago.

3) When San Jose, CA moved to a 'living wage' minimum of $10/hour I know several businesses that reduced headcount and made people do more work. The owners argument to the employees was you are being paid 25% more (CA state minimum wage is $8/hr), I expect 10% more work.

4) Any arbitrary increase in costs with no additional output is by definition inflationary. Businesses will simply pass the costs along. It's like taxing businesses. Businesses do not pay taxes, their customers do.

5) I wonder if this has anything to do with the fact that most of the new jobs being created are low wage jobs. You can get more support for such an idea when people used to make good money lost their jobs and all they can find today are lower wage positions.

6) According to Forbes, 60% of those officially counted as poor do not work. So wouldn't the resulting rise in prices make it even harder for that 60% of poor people to survive?

Just thought I would stimulate some conversation.
2013-12-07 6:52 PM
in reply to: 0

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Subject: RE: Protests for $15 an hour minimum wage
A nation-wide increase to a $15 minimum wage is a bad idea in my opinion...and I'm a left-leaner for sure.
If local areas want to increase (as is already done in high cost of living areas) go for it.
But nation-wide? Bad idea...in my opinion.


Edited by ChineseDemocracy 2013-12-07 6:52 PM


2013-12-07 7:06 PM
in reply to: jmcconne


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Subject: RE: Protests for $15 an hour minimum wage
The problem I foresee is if the minimum wage rate shoots up, that will cause pricing from all venues to go up for the consumer, so in the long run (or maybe short run) will it ultimately be counter productive to the economy?
2013-12-08 10:38 AM
in reply to: Mtneer


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Subject: RE: Protests for $15 an hour minimum wage
Originally posted by Mtneer

Touch screens and swipe cards are already here

For better-or-worse these low paying service jobs will disappear regardless of an increase in wages.


Because we all know that the touch screens will build and program themselves.

Just like buggy whip manufacturers gave way to engine mechanics, order takers will give way to tech applications.
2013-12-08 3:25 PM
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Subject: RE: Protests for $15 an hour minimum wage
I know two people who work for minimum wage. My 16 year old niece and my 15 year old nephew. They both live at home with my sister and brother-in-law. The 10 hours they work and the resulting income are used to pay for dates and I-tunes cards, not rent and groceries. Nobody working for minimum wage needs to support themselves. If you're in your 20's and working a minimum wage you are either a) disabled and also receiving some sort of disability wage or social security or b) a fool.

Seriously, people, do you know ANYONE who isn't 16 or 17 who works for minimum wage? I didn't think so.

Nobody works for minimum wage for more than a few months (maybe a year) when you start out working. My first job I bagged groceries for $3.35/hour, within 6 months I was already up to like $3.50. My first raise for being efficient enough to impress my keepers in the grocery store. It was called "merit". If I didn't get it, I could have gone to the rival down the block who would have paid me more. I know it's not a princely sum, but the fact of the matter is that there are plenty of opportunities to work outside of fast food (which entail about 90% of all minimum wage jobs). Once you get any work experience, it translates into you being a more valuable employee. Again, unless we're talking about someone who is disabled (where there are other Government programs to save you), nobody should be making minimum wage for long.

Edited by mcgilmartin 2013-12-08 3:29 PM
2013-12-08 7:46 PM
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Subject: RE: Protests for $15 an hour minimum wage
You are very wrong McGill. I know several people who live of f of minimum wage jobs. I'm sure most people on a triathlon board aren't going to be in that category but if you look at the quantity of minimum wage jobs, there has to be quite a few people supporting themselves.
2013-12-09 8:01 AM
in reply to: JoshR

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Subject: RE: Protests for $15 an hour minimum wage

Here is an interesting thought based upon a post in this thread.  What if we stopped providing wellfare for those working for minimum wage?  Wouldn't you end up with people who could not afford to take those jobs at the rate they are being paid, thus creating a shortage of workers and "driving up" the value/cost to hire people for those positions?  Maybe it is government that is holding down the wages by subsidizing the wages with wellfare benefits?

Interested to know peoples thoughts on this.  

 

Thanks...



2013-12-09 9:43 AM
in reply to: mcgilmartin

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Subject: RE: Protests for $15 an hour minimum wage

Originally posted by mcgilmartin

Seriously, people, do you know ANYONE who isn't 16 or 17 who works for minimum wage? I didn't think so.

YES. 

2013-12-09 9:47 AM
in reply to: mcgilmartin

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Subject: RE: Protests for $15 an hour minimum wage

Originally posted by mcgilmartin  Seriously, people, do you know ANYONE who isn't 16 or 17 who works for minimum wage? 

If I lost my job and that's all I could find, you could count me in.

2013-12-09 1:24 PM
in reply to: mcgilmartin

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Subject: RE: Protests for $15 an hour minimum wage

Originally posted by mcgilmartin I know two people who work for minimum wage. My 16 year old niece and my 15 year old nephew. They both live at home with my sister and brother-in-law. The 10 hours they work and the resulting income are used to pay for dates and I-tunes cards, not rent and groceries. Nobody working for minimum wage needs to support themselves. If you're in your 20's and working a minimum wage you are either a) disabled and also receiving some sort of disability wage or social security or b) a fool. Seriously, people, do you know ANYONE who isn't 16 or 17 who works for minimum wage? I didn't think so. Nobody works for minimum wage for more than a few months (maybe a year) when you start out working. My first job I bagged groceries for $3.35/hour, within 6 months I was already up to like $3.50. My first raise for being efficient enough to impress my keepers in the grocery store. It was called "merit". If I didn't get it, I could have gone to the rival down the block who would have paid me more. I know it's not a princely sum, but the fact of the matter is that there are plenty of opportunities to work outside of fast food (which entail about 90% of all minimum wage jobs). Once you get any work experience, it translates into you being a more valuable employee. Again, unless we're talking about someone who is disabled (where there are other Government programs to save you), nobody should be making minimum wage for long.

Just some numbers from the BLS.

http://www.bls.gov/cps/minwage2011.htm

 

 

2013-12-09 3:10 PM
in reply to: crowny2

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Subject: RE: Protests for $15 an hour minimum wage
OK, I stand corrected on my assumption.

I still don't think anyone would be employed for minimum wage for any extended period of time though (unless they were disabled or something). Again, correct me if I'm wrong.
2013-12-09 3:11 PM
in reply to: SGirl

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Subject: RE: Protests for $15 an hour minimum wage
Originally posted by SGirl

The problem I foresee is if the minimum wage rate shoots up, that will cause pricing from all venues to go up for the consumer, so in the long run (or maybe short run) will it ultimately be counter productive to the economy?


This is only partially true. Many places already pay more than minimum wage even for entry level so they will not have additional direct labor cost increases immediately. There will be a direct increase in prices from those who currently have employees making under $15/hour. The residual effect will be hire wage demand because those people already making more than that will have higher costs for what they buy. Their likelihood to prevail in those demand will fluctuate wildly.

Moreover, those at the lower end of the wage scale will be hurt far more than those making more money. The reality is those at the lower end of the wage scale are more frequent consumers of goods and services from companies that pay minimum wage. Those retailers are more often found in lower income neighborhoods than Beverly Hills.

And as I stated above, 60% of those considered 'poor' are unemployed. What happens to their buying power when the cost of goods and services rise?


2013-12-09 3:52 PM
in reply to: Stuartap

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Subject: RE: Protests for $15 an hour minimum wage
Originally posted by Stuartap

Originally posted by SGirl

The problem I foresee is if the minimum wage rate shoots up, that will cause pricing from all venues to go up for the consumer, so in the long run (or maybe short run) will it ultimately be counter productive to the economy?


This is only partially true. Many places already pay more than minimum wage even for entry level so they will not have additional direct labor cost increases immediately. There will be a direct increase in prices from those who currently have employees making under $15/hour. The residual effect will be hire wage demand because those people already making more than that will have higher costs for what they buy. Their likelihood to prevail in those demand will fluctuate wildly.

Moreover, those at the lower end of the wage scale will be hurt far more than those making more money. The reality is those at the lower end of the wage scale are more frequent consumers of goods and services from companies that pay minimum wage. Those retailers are more often found in lower income neighborhoods than Beverly Hills.

And as I stated above, 60% of those considered 'poor' are unemployed. What happens to their buying power when the cost of goods and services rise?




  • As the macro economy equalize the burger flippers of the world will be exactly in the same economic position as they are today except it will now take them $15 buy what used to cost $7.50 (or what ever the prevailing minimum wage is) and there will be less people who can say they are burger flippers by trade. The marked will always adjust to compensate a burger flipper their real value regardless if they are paid $7.50 an hour or $100 and hour.And no offense to burger flippers everywhere but the value of your skills in the market place will never equal to what is generally considered a living wage. But as long as there are people to who don't require a living wage, there will be burger flippers.

    And I agree, the poor and middle class always take it in the chin in an inflationary economy because they don't have the appreciable capital assets to offset inflation.
    2013-12-09 4:51 PM
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    Subject: RE: Protests for $15 an hour minimum wage
    Originally posted by msteiner

    Asking for $15 minimum wage is simply people wanting more money to do the same thing their doing now out of a pure sense of entitlement.  They haven't thought about the effects of raising the minimum wage, nor are they wanting to do anything to improve their position.  They just want more and don't care how they get it.




    Ignoring the cheap grammar shot I could take at your post, you display staggering ignorance.

    "They just want more and don't care how they get it." -- I don't know your situation, and I don't presume to know you at all, but words like these are usually spoken by people who have never had to struggle.

    Edited by Bodaggit 2013-12-09 4:51 PM
    2013-12-10 9:44 AM
    in reply to: mcgilmartin

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    Subject: RE: Protests for $15 an hour minimum wage

    Originally posted by mcgilmartin OK, I stand corrected on my assumption. I still don't think anyone would be employed for minimum wage for any extended period of time though (unless they were disabled or something). Again, correct me if I'm wrong.

    You might be right about individuals minght not stay on it for long, but keep in mind those making slightly above minimum wage would be affected by this as well and those likely would stay at a lower wage salary for quite a while.  And it likely isn't because they are disable but because they do not have the education.  And they can't afford to get the education because of the cost for the education and likely the lack of time to get it.  They are also likely working more than one job. 

    Disclaimer: I'm not advocating for either side, just making certain as much information is coming out as possible.

    2013-12-10 10:00 AM
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    Subject: RE: Protests for $15 an hour minimum wage

    Originally posted by Bodaggit
    Originally posted by msteiner

    Asking for $15 minimum wage is simply people wanting more money to do the same thing their doing now out of a pure sense of entitlement.  They haven't thought about the effects of raising the minimum wage, nor are they wanting to do anything to improve their position.  They just want more and don't care how they get it.

    Ignoring the cheap grammar shot I could take at your post, you display staggering ignorance. "They just want more and don't care how they get it." -- I don't know your situation, and I don't presume to know you at all, but words like these are usually spoken by people who have never had to struggle.

    Your last sentence assumes that I haven't worked hard.  Do I look like someone who doesn't understand that hard work pays off?  I worked all my way through high school and worked in college, while still having to take loans.  It was challenging at times, but I got to where I am now by working through it and not waiting for someone to get my salary for me.  I'm sorry if expecting others to do the same is out of line. 

    When I say "and don't care how they get it", I'm referring to the ramifications of raising the minimum wage that has been brought up enough in this thread that it doesn't bear repeating.  They simply want more, because they think they deserve more.  That's not how things work.

    Also you're correct.  I used "their" instead of "they're".  My apologies.

     



    Edited by msteiner 2013-12-10 10:01 AM
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