aerobic base questions

Welcome to the dark and boring side!

I have felt your pain, 2 years ago I start HRM training and had to do 10 minute miles to keep my HR in Z2. Before that I thought I had to do 8 min miles for any run I did.  Yet within 5 months my fitness improved so much I PR'd a 5k without doing any hards runs except mixing in intervals on my longer runs. 

Based on a RW article I read awhile back, even world class track athletes spend ~90% of their training in Z2 region.  As you get fitter your pace will naturally increase.

ooh ooh! i am a very recent convert to the "slow" thing. v. quick synopsis:

-I've done 4 sprints and 2 half marys, never really trained according to the BT philosophy of z1/z2 go slow to get fast

-Decided I wanted to get fast

-Ran a 5K on 9/30 at 29:50...~the same time as my last four 5Ks stretching back to 2004 (ALL around 30 minutes).

-Did Z1/Z2 training in October/November. Felt doubt because I felt so slow. Ran all 11-12 minute miles. Could not imagine how this could possibly help. My RPE was also very low, and I could walk just about as fast as run that pace, just like you. Convinced myself I should give it a shot, be patient, and at least what happened when I ran another 5K in December.

-That 5K was yesterday. I wanted hit 28 minutes. You can check my logs for the week before the race, I was wondering how I could possibly be faster when I didn't even know what a 9 minute mile felt like. But then, I did it, coming in just under 28 minutes.

-I really don't understand how it happened, but it did and I'm a convert. I'm going to continue with the z1/z2 training at 11-12 min/mile until I have about 200 miles under my belt, then incorporate some tempo/speed to get even faster.

I advocate patience and trying it out, try a race in a while and see how you improve. You might be converted then too . I don't think I will doubt anymore.

People look for that instant gratification that you receive from the "ache" of harder workouts and something like Z1/2 work takes literally years to build and have a great affect.  Each workout has a specific goal and place, and if you follow them correctly it will all balance out and you will be stronger/faster/better for it.

Patience Grasshopper ........

How timely--just put out a long post on this in my mentor group. I'm a believer and I still need to remind myself when I'm feeling like, hey, I'm not getting a workout here ...

I love this article from Mark Allen:

http://www.duathlon.com/articles/1460

The answer's maddeningly simple: you build base, you eventually go much faster at the same heart rate, and dizzyingly faster if you push the heart rate, say in races. I don't spend a lot of time digging through review articles anymore for the fancy schmancy commentary on the primary research, but it's out there.

to answer Jorge and kproudfoot -

I did LT on the bike - so for now was a bit liberal with the zone 2 - was more in zone 3 by biking numbers....

To do what Mike Ricci suggests and do a whole month of zone 1/2 I think you all would have to heavily medicate me - and since I want numbers for running (praying they are substantially higher) I am doing LT/VO2 max this saturday on dreadmill.

And yes Rick, I have NO patience.....

my dog was really happy with the pace - she could trot along having a grand old time - and thankfully her interactions with others helped to entertain me..... 

it is going to be a long december..... but if it helps me get to 8 minute or less mile pace in 5K fine.....just really hard to see how.....

Yeah, you're right--and no approach or method or plan is a cure-all, esp. if there are individuals with individual needs involved!

I do like the way the article explains it, though. Simple (if too simple).

And there's a lot of different info/experience re. doing ALL, EVERYTHING in Z1/Z2, what type of re-building base is necessary for experienced athletes in a new training season (or off-season, as you pointed out), etc. etc.

Cat's post sounded like she'd never actually spent a significant amount of time building a strong aerobic base, though.

This year I have gone from race pace being 10 minute miles. LSD (z1/ z2) pace coming in around 11:30 miles.

Now, my last 5k I went sub 24 minute.

My long run saturday in middle zone 1 pretty much the entire time was right around 10 minute miles. 10 miles. No aches, no pains, no injuries.

I plan on going sub 40 in New Years Day 5 miler if weather conditions are conducive. ALL because of HR training.

A year ago a 5 miler would have EASILY been a 52+ minute affair.

My run LT is 167, bike is 153. Obviously you can see if I used  my bike LT I would have to crawl to stay in zone 1 and 2. Do yourself a favor and do a run LT test.

Thank you Suzanne - that is what I was looking for in the how....

and Jorge I think my coach is like you - does not feel that all the work needs to be zone 2 - has me right now doing one bike and one run per week but does have me doing some pace work this week (yay).

Suzanne (and anyone else who knows) - did a bunch of athletes really let people muscle biopsy them to get this data??? It seems counterintuitive that slow running would cause faster gains than interval work..... 

Saturday at 7am..... 

If I go by the Borg scale at the bottom of that link, then I was a 2 MAYBE a 3....and except for muscle glycogen storage increase it looks like there is more gain at Borg 4....which would more like zone 3.....which would be much more appealing to me.....

Actually, no .... it's pretty logical ..... do you think you will have better results by stimulating your muscles for longer periods and more often or for shorter periods that require more rest?  The muscle doesn't care whether you are Z1 or Z5 ...... it is simply responding to the loads put on it.  So a constant lighter load for a long time will (in my non-medical opinion) stimulate and enhance those fibers better and make them more adapted to workloads than high intensity loads applied over a very short time.

Back to the whole icing/cake thing (speedwork/base).  This is something that HAS been proven over time that you cannot train and sustain high intensity workouts constantly.  The body can't handle it and it will start to rebel and break when the loads are constantly too high .....

Newbie mistake #1 in every coaching book out there for endurance sports is "too hard, too fast = burnout and injury."

I did zero speed work this whole year as I struggled with run injuries and had to take weeks off at a time, did all my run training in my aerobic zones from testing and zones set up by my coach. Guess what my long runs I was 1:30-2:00 faster than the previous year. It really does work.

I look forward to meeting you on the 23rd and watching your training this year. You have a lot of questions and like to fully understand stuff...I'm much the same way...but I do most of my asking to my coach as I trust him.