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Fred D Mentor Group Part III (Page 102)
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 2012-12-10 1:19 PM in reply to: #4529406 |
Melon Presser  52116   |  Subject: RE: Fred D Mentor Group Part IIIspudone - 2012-12-11 3:12 AM brigby1 - 2012-12-10 11:06 AM axteraa - 2012-12-10 12:26 PM TriAya - 2012-12-10 2:03 PM brigby1 - 2012-12-11 1:55 AM Yanti, what kind of temperatures could you be looking at? "Cold" varies by person, so it might help to have an idea of what you'll see. It could vary the amount of getting used to it and dressing better. Will see what comes to mind for various rain situations, but that can also depend on the temps. By anyone else's measure, mild. In an extreme case it could be as cold as 15C, but it's more likely to be 18C at worst, and most likely to be between 20-24C. The problem is me, and coming straight from Bali where it's pretty much in the 90s F and same percentage humidity year round. For whatever reason (and I'm pretty sure I have Raynaud's phenomenon), cold affects me profoundly. Wow, if that's the case it's tough. I swam with someone at masters last year who had that and her hands went blue when the pool was 82 degrees! That does sound tough if you do have it! I only know what I've read in the last few minutes. What comes to mind is how the the recovery is when the phenomenon is triggered, since the swim sounds likely to do it (again). How long does it take and what do you do? Just kind of brainstorming if there is something you could do in transition to help warm up a little before going out on the bike. It's not likely you'll warm back up on the bike unless it's rather hot out or you overdress. Might end up overdressing at first, then peeling layers off as you go, but curious about recovering first. You know what I thought of are those glove warmers people use for skiing. Something like this: http://www.amazon.com/HeatMax-Hand-Body-Warmer-Count/dp/B0007ZF4Q8 Pull on some bigger gloves over them and you'd be set. And you could always toss the gloves later on in the ride if it gets hot out. You might even stuff a couple of those inside your tri top. Not sure if they still work when they get wet so you'd have to experiment. I don't think any of that would cost you more than a minute or two in transition. Yes! That's what I meant by chem packs, but it didn't occur to me to wear them OUT of transition, in the gloves, in the clothes. Top will not get wet. Scarf under the weatherproof, neck-high shell, I think. P.S. I really appreciate all the input from everyone--keep it coming--also gearwise I need to get all of this stuff while I'm here in Oz. |
| 2012-12-10 1:19 PM in reply to: #4529422 |
Master 5557   , California | Subject: RE: Fred D Mentor Group Part III bzgl40 - 2012-12-10 11:17 AM TriAya - 2012-12-10 12:11 PM spudone - 2012-12-11 3:07 AM Btw for those in the group who aren't familiar with Western Australia, Yanti is not kidding about the flies. They are super annoying in the summer in that area Note my hand waving during the run and check out my hat... They were clustered in swarms on my chafe wounds. It tickled. And no, they don't go away after dark, and everyone had tiny polka dots of flies all over their clothes after dark--the critters just hung on or even got stuck in the fabric. I didn't count the flies I ate that were on my PB&J sandwich in special needs. Just the ones I consumed directly. After my Grand Canyon experience hearing this might make me cancel my trip to Australia. I hate things in my face They're really problematic only in Western Australia and only in the summer months (Dec through May or so). When I hopped over to Brisbane and Sydney there were no problems. |
| 2012-12-10 1:21 PM in reply to: #4529417 |
| Payson, AZ | Subject: RE: Fred D Mentor Group Part III TriAya - 2012-12-10 12:15 PM brigby1 - 2012-12-11 3:06 AM That does sound tough if you do have it! I only know what I've read in the last few minutes. What comes to mind is how the the recovery is when the phenomenon is triggered, since the swim sounds likely to do it (again). How long does it take and what do you do? Just kind of brainstorming if there is something you could do in transition to help warm up a little before going out on the bike. It's not likely you'll warm back up on the bike unless it's rather hot out or you overdress. Might end up overdressing at first, then peeling layers off as you go, but curious about recovering first. Some people it doesn't affect their core temp, it really is a peripheral vasoconstrictive phenomenon, but that's not me. Problem is once that's cold, it takes a long time to heat back up. Really good thought, though. I'm going to have to get good and faster on both bike and run to make up time, but I'll need to take it in transition to warm up. Chem packs for hands and feet, thermos of warm drink? Fully change top so trunk stays dry, layers on top, weatherproof outermost (bottoms will get wet no matter what, likely). If I were having your issue I'd for sure do a full change. And I think the chemical warmers might be a good idea. get the volunteer to open them as soon as you get into T1 as they don't work right away and actually need air a bit. Then when you are ready to go shove them in your glove. You should be able to deal with them on the bike easily enough. |
| 2012-12-10 1:23 PM in reply to: #4529275 |
Master 2912 ...at home in The ATL | Subject: RE: Fred D Mentor Group Part III brigby1 - 2012-12-10 12:55 PMYanti, what kind of temperatures could you be looking at? "Cold" varies by person, so it might help to have an idea of what you'll see. It could vary the amount of getting used to it and dressing better. Will see what comes to mind for various rain situations, but that can also depend on the temps. dang Yanti - you really ARE one tough cookie. I can assure you that one thing I would NOT be doing less than 48 hours after an ironman is planning my next one THREE MONTHS FROM NOW!!!! You are a nut of the first degree... I was wondering the same thing as Ben (a belated welcome from me Ben!) Relative to riding in the rain, we have to ride in wet weather a good bit in these parts(where it is also very humid), and the air temp really makes a big difference. 20c (70F) would be fairly warm for me to worry about trying to stay too dry on the bike, and no way I would worry about it on the run. At around 15c/60F I might think about it a little more, but only if it is a long ride and a steady rain. Under 10c/50F I will put on a rain jacket that is reasonably ventilated, as I have found anything that keeps the rain off creates its own little tropical microclimate inside and I will be soaking wet from sweat - the jacket really just keeps the wind off. I will also slip on some neoprene booties for the same reason: feet will sweat but keeping the wind off is important. I have found that so long as my core and feet stay warm, my legs do not matter too much - I do know that wet tights are better than wet wind stopper pants, at least the ones I have. The wind stopper fronts are looser so it seems like they let too much air move around inside them when they are wet. all that said, the possible Raynaud's obviously would make a big difference obviously to any of my own personal experience. Do you have an official diagnosis? I would expect that you would at least need that to get any dispensation from the RD. I can't remember, but did one of the racers profiled in the book "You are an Ironman" have Raynaud's? Can't remember what they wound up doing for their race - does anyone else? |
| 2012-12-10 1:24 PM in reply to: #4529431 |
| Master 5557 , California | Subject: RE: Fred D Mentor Group Part III bzgl40 - 2012-12-10 11:21 AM TriAya - 2012-12-10 12:15 PM brigby1 - 2012-12-11 3:06 AM That does sound tough if you do have it! I only know what I've read in the last few minutes. What comes to mind is how the the recovery is when the phenomenon is triggered, since the swim sounds likely to do it (again). How long does it take and what do you do? Just kind of brainstorming if there is something you could do in transition to help warm up a little before going out on the bike. It's not likely you'll warm back up on the bike unless it's rather hot out or you overdress. Might end up overdressing at first, then peeling layers off as you go, but curious about recovering first. Some people it doesn't affect their core temp, it really is a peripheral vasoconstrictive phenomenon, but that's not me. Problem is once that's cold, it takes a long time to heat back up. Really good thought, though. I'm going to have to get good and faster on both bike and run to make up time, but I'll need to take it in transition to warm up. Chem packs for hands and feet, thermos of warm drink? Fully change top so trunk stays dry, layers on top, weatherproof outermost (bottoms will get wet no matter what, likely). If I were having your issue I'd for sure do a full change. And I think the chemical warmers might be a good idea. get the volunteer to open them as soon as you get into T1 as they don't work right away and actually need air a bit. Then when you are ready to go shove them in your glove. You should be able to deal with them on the bike easily enough. Or, if you don't want gloves, you could tape one around each bar on your bike and just hold on to them. Depends if it's raining or not I guess Definitely stuff one or two in your jersey though. If your core stays warm, the extremities will follow. Edited by spudone 2012-12-10 1:25 PM |
| 2012-12-10 1:24 PM in reply to: #4529381 |
| Payson, AZ | Subject: RE: Fred D Mentor Group Part III TriAya - 2012-12-10 12:01 PM bzgl40 - 2012-12-11 2:58 AM I might suggest along with volume you add some intensity on the bike (once you are recovered). What kind of effort are you putting into your trainer rides that are not 10 hours long? With the run though I'd just slowly build up as best you can given the duration. TriAya - 2012-12-10 11:53 AM AND THE MOST IMPORTANT QUESTION OF ALL: Any tips on how to train for the next 12 weeks?! I was thinking unstructured, whatever I feel like stuff (but staying active and maintaining) the next couple of weeks, and then back into a solid-volume program--still went in with very little run so I'll just be consistently running most days and keep on building that up. As far as the bike goes, to be able to deal with the chip seal roads in NZ (like a good part of it was here in WA), I have to get out on the open road for some good long hauls. I just don't know how I'm going to do it. Probably bring my bike to Java when I visit my folks (there's great riding surprisingly close to Jakarta). Rainy season now, so the seas around Bali are like a giant toilet. Pool swimming for me. Agreed. The 2-3 hour rides were fairly intense (as much as they could be) and I throw in 5-10 minute segments of what feels like Z4 (the edge of suffering) to me. Also, there's no way I can keep up 12-16 hours of bike load regardless, so I'll be cutting back on that but suffering more during less I don't know that I would do Jorge's program at this stage. The rides are not long enough and the recovery is too hard. Not what you need right now. Take a look at some of Bryan's rides during his IM prep and see if that gives you some ideas? |
| 2012-12-10 1:30 PM in reply to: #4529431 |
Melon Presser 52116 | Subject: RE: Fred D Mentor Group Part III bzgl40 - 2012-12-11 3:21 AM TriAya - 2012-12-10 12:15 PM brigby1 - 2012-12-11 3:06 AM That does sound tough if you do have it! I only know what I've read in the last few minutes. What comes to mind is how the the recovery is when the phenomenon is triggered, since the swim sounds likely to do it (again). How long does it take and what do you do? Just kind of brainstorming if there is something you could do in transition to help warm up a little before going out on the bike. It's not likely you'll warm back up on the bike unless it's rather hot out or you overdress. Might end up overdressing at first, then peeling layers off as you go, but curious about recovering first. Some people it doesn't affect their core temp, it really is a peripheral vasoconstrictive phenomenon, but that's not me. Problem is once that's cold, it takes a long time to heat back up. Really good thought, though. I'm going to have to get good and faster on both bike and run to make up time, but I'll need to take it in transition to warm up. Chem packs for hands and feet, thermos of warm drink? Fully change top so trunk stays dry, layers on top, weatherproof outermost (bottoms will get wet no matter what, likely). If I were having your issue I'd for sure do a full change. And I think the chemical warmers might be a good idea. get the volunteer to open them as soon as you get into T1 as they don't work right away and actually need air a bit. Then when you are ready to go shove them in your glove. You should be able to deal with them on the bike easily enough. Bless you! |
| 2012-12-10 1:31 PM in reply to: #4528709 |
Master 2912 ...at home in The ATL | Subject: RE: Fred D Mentor Group Part III bzgl40 - 2012-12-10 6:21 AMOnly 28F here. My gym in the garage sure is going to be chilly this morning. Maybe I'll do the foam rolling inside. lol Strength training and a short run on tap today. What has everyone else got going on? Officially started my 8 months off from work today. We have terrible storms rolling in, but I beat the lightening to get 3000y in at the pool followed by 1.5 hours of deep tissue massage. Getting buttoned up at work and handing everything off really took its toll the last 6 weeks and made crap for training - I got nothing in during the last two weeks. I am very much looking forward to have IM training as my primary focus. |
| 2012-12-10 1:37 PM in reply to: #4529455 |
Melon Presser 52116 | Subject: RE: Fred D Mentor Group Part III TankBoy - 2012-12-11 3:31 AM bzgl40 - 2012-12-10 6:21 AMOnly 28F here. My gym in the garage sure is going to be chilly this morning. Maybe I'll do the foam rolling inside. lol Strength training and a short run on tap today. What has everyone else got going on? Officially started my 8 months off from work today. We have terrible storms rolling in, but I beat the lightening to get 3000y in at the pool followed by 1.5 hours of deep tissue massage. Getting buttoned up at work and handing everything off really took its toll the last 6 weeks and made crap for training - I got nothing in during the last two weeks. I am very much looking forward to have IM training as my primary focus. Yes, it's a fantastic primary focus to have No official diagnosis but it should be easy enough to get. I was looking through TUE information as well as physically challenged but neither of them really apply. Is there anything (really) I could wear on my hands that would be insulating but not propulsive? |
| 2012-12-10 1:37 PM in reply to: #4528773 |
Master 2912 ...at home in The ATL | Subject: RE: Fred D Mentor Group Part III riorio - 2012-12-10 8:02 AM bzgl40 - 2012-12-10 3:21 AM Only 28F here. My gym in the garage sure is going to be chilly this morning. Maybe I'll do the foam rolling inside. lol Strength training and a short run on tap today. What has everyone else got going on?
Recovering from a busy weekend...Saturday was an 85 mile ride, hike with the family and holiday parade..yesterday I pulled off a surprise 40th b-day party for my husband. I'm worn out (and a little hungover). I start work at a new school today, same position, just a transfer. I am trying to decide if I should swim on my way to work like I usually do or if showing up with "goggle eyes" and a slight odor of chlorine on my first day is not a good idea. That sounds like a great weekend all around! And I agree - hopefully you went in with "goggle eyes." No point in setting false expectations - just go ahead and let them know how it is going to be... Hope the first day at the new school went well - did it at least make the trip to and from work better? |
| 2012-12-10 1:44 PM in reply to: #4529465 |
Member 5452 NC | Subject: RE: Fred D Mentor Group Part III TriAya - 2012-12-10 2:37 PM Is there anything (really) I could wear on my hands that would be insulating but not propulsive? What about tight nitrile gloves? Even if a little water got in, it might have a wetsuit-like effect.
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| 2012-12-10 1:47 PM in reply to: #4433790 |
Champion 6656 | Subject: RE: Fred D Mentor Group Part III 7 more sleeps till Maui!!! Woooo woooo!!!  training has been more consistent so I'm ready for some good training in the land of warm! Trying to convince my bro to do a 5k with me in Lahaina on Jan 5. Been in the OR...successfully done 2 spinal anesthetics so far..good day all around. Trainer ride planned for this evening! |
| 2012-12-10 1:53 PM in reply to: #4433790 |
| Subject: RE: Fred D Mentor Group Part III Had fun yesterday running a portion of the Honolulu Marathon. The friend I was pacing was having GI issues, so we had to go a bit slower than planned, but she made it to the finish around 4:30 which was quite impressive given her condition. Got to see some of the pros come by including Wilson Kipsing who's the #1 ranked marathoner in the world and won by about 30 seconds. Those guys just glide across the ground. I tried to take a picture of them, but it was just a blur...LOL. |
| 2012-12-10 1:54 PM in reply to: #4529465 |
Master 2912 ...at home in The ATL | Subject: RE: Fred D Mentor Group Part III TriAya - 2012-12-10 2:37 PM Is there anything (really) I could wear on my hands that would be insulating but not propulsive? No idea from experience, but it seems that at the very minimum it would have to be a fingered glove (not a mitten) and very thin in order to be "non-propulsive). Also I would guess that it would have to be tight fitting so that water could not move in and out of them - I cannot imagine swimming with two big Mickey Mouse gloves filled up like balloons full of water...! |
| 2012-12-10 1:59 PM in reply to: #4528890 |
Master 2912 ...at home in The ATL | Subject: RE: Fred D Mentor Group Part III brigby1 - 2012-12-10 9:34 AM axteraa - 2012-12-10 5:29 AM I ran a 5k at the track on the weekend, 21:00 - 47 seconds faster than a month ago and only 9 seconds slower than my PR! Nice job! Seriously! That is moving pretty well on the track, and would DEFINITELY translate to a good bit faster on the road Under race conditions. And FWIW, you would just have to kill me now if I thought I had to run a fast 5k on the track... |
| 2012-12-10 2:01 PM in reply to: #4529503 |
| Master 5557 , California | Subject: RE: Fred D Mentor Group Part III TankBoy - 2012-12-10 11:54 AM TriAya - 2012-12-10 2:37 PM Is there anything (really) I could wear on my hands that would be insulating but not propulsive? No idea from experience, but it seems that at the very minimum it would have to be a fingered glove (not a mitten) and very thin in order to be "non-propulsive). Also I would guess that it would have to be tight fitting so that water could not move in and out of them - I cannot imagine swimming with two big Mickey Mouse gloves filled up like balloons full of water...! I'd worry that tight fitting gloves might actually constrict circulation and aggravate the problem. Definitely something you'd want to test out before the race. |
| 2012-12-10 2:07 PM in reply to: #4529488 |
| Subject: RE: Fred D Mentor Group Part III mndymond - 2012-12-10 11:47 AM 7 more sleeps till Maui!!! Woooo woooo!!! training has been more consistent so I'm ready for some good training in the land of warm! Trying to convince my bro to do a 5k with me in Lahaina on Jan 5. Been in the OR...successfully done 2 spinal anesthetics so far..good day all around. Trainer ride planned for this evening!Hook up with Maui Cyclery in Paia for a ride up Haleakala, or the Road to Hana. I can also recommend Flyin Hawaiian zipline above the Maui Tropical Plantation. Excellent operation, last zip is something like 1700 feet long, at one point going 70 mph and 10 feet off the ground..... wow |
| 2012-12-10 2:14 PM in reply to: #4529519 |
Master 2912 ...at home in The ATL | Subject: RE: Fred D Mentor Group Part III spudone - 2012-12-10 3:01 PM TankBoy - 2012-12-10 11:54 AM TriAya - 2012-12-10 2:37 PM Is there anything (really) I could wear on my hands that would be insulating but not propulsive? No idea from experience, but it seems that at the very minimum it would have to be a fingered glove (not a mitten) and very thin in order to be "non-propulsive). Also I would guess that it would have to be tight fitting so that water could not move in and out of them - I cannot imagine swimming with two big Mickey Mouse gloves filled up like balloons full of water...! I'd worry that tight fitting gloves might actually constrict circulation and aggravate the problem. Definitely something you'd want to test out before the race. yeah, that is a possibility as well - both of these concerns are probably why you don't see too many options in a true "swimming" glove... Yanti you also asked about acclimatization? I have had much better experience by either getting very little or a lot. So based on your timeframe I might either get there two weeks before the race or only a day or two before. Either would work for me. I have actually found getting to a venue a week-5 days before to be disastrous. For me I would make the decision based on whether or not I wanted to make the trip a vacation or not. If yes, the I would def get there as close to race day as possible then take the vacation afterward. |
| 2012-12-10 2:39 PM in reply to: #4529537 |
Champion 6656 | Subject: RE: Fred D Mentor Group Part III ChrisM - 2012-12-10 1:07 PM Road to Hana would be good. I don't think I'm in good enough shape for Haleakala. I had planned to do it before I got sick so now something flatter might be nice! mndymond - 2012-12-10 11:47 AM 7 more sleeps till Maui!!! Woooo woooo!!! training has been more consistent so I'm ready for some good training in the land of warm! Trying to convince my bro to do a 5k with me in Lahaina on Jan 5. Been in the OR...successfully done 2 spinal anesthetics so far..good day all around. Trainer ride planned for this evening!Hook up with Maui Cyclery in Paia for a ride up Haleakala, or the Road to Hana. I can also recommend Flyin Hawaiian zipline above the Maui Tropical Plantation. Excellent operation, last zip is something like 1700 feet long, at one point going 70 mph and 10 feet off the ground..... wow haha. Thanks for the suggestion Chris! |
| 2012-12-10 2:46 PM in reply to: #4529639 |
| Subject: RE: Fred D Mentor Group Part III mndymond - 2012-12-10 12:39 PM ChrisM - 2012-12-10 1:07 PM Road to Hana would be good. I don't think I'm in good enough shape for Haleakala. I had planned to do it before I got sick so now something flatter might be nice! mndymond - 2012-12-10 11:47 AM 7 more sleeps till Maui!!! Woooo woooo!!! training has been more consistent so I'm ready for some good training in the land of warm! Trying to convince my bro to do a 5k with me in Lahaina on Jan 5. Been in the OR...successfully done 2 spinal anesthetics so far..good day all around. Trainer ride planned for this evening!Hook up with Maui Cyclery in Paia for a ride up Haleakala, or the Road to Hana. I can also recommend Flyin Hawaiian zipline above the Maui Tropical Plantation. Excellent operation, last zip is something like 1700 feet long, at one point going 70 mph and 10 feet off the ground..... wow haha. Thanks for the suggestion Chris!
Just went through my Maui notes from last August and my suggestions on restaurants we went to. Not sure where you are staying but most of this is South Maui/Kihei/Wailea area Food - Kihei Cafe - great breakfast spot Coconuts Cafe- Kihei - fish tacos to die for Hailemaile General Store - Didn't do it this trip, but went a few years ago Mama's - a maui classic, we had been to Maui 10+ tiems and never went until this trip. Expensive. But very good. Paia Flatbread Pizza - More pizza to die for..... But I ate here after the Haleakala ride so I could have eaten a scabby baby and been happy. My wife liked it too though Lapperts ice cream - used to be all over, unfortunately have to find them now, we went to Shops at Wailea. Well worth it if you are near one Trilogy Lanai trip - Meh, it was OK, fun to be out on a boat, but not great. |
| 2012-12-10 3:17 PM in reply to: #4433790 |
| Subject: RE: Fred D Mentor Group Part III Maui Specialty Chocolates. They've got fresh mochi filled with azuki bean, peanut butter chocolate, or dark chocolate truffle. They usually run out before noon unless you pre order. Unfortunately not good for taking back home as if they are not eaten fresh they need to be frozen. Also don't take them with you on a hot day out as they need to be kept at room temp or cooler. |
| 2012-12-10 3:41 PM in reply to: #4529465 |
Pro 4482 NJ | Subject: RE: Fred D Mentor Group Part III Yanti...... Just thinking out loud, but have you thought about a thick layer of petroleum jelly? Isn't that what channel swimmers use? Edited by kcarroll 2012-12-10 3:42 PM |
| 2012-12-10 4:13 PM in reply to: #4433790 |
Master 2411 Goodyear, AZ | Subject: RE: Fred D Mentor Group Part III Yanti...this works for cycling, might work for swimming too...or petroleum jelly http://www.enzoscyclingproducts.com/embrocation |
| 2012-12-10 5:08 PM in reply to: #4529639 |
Elite 7783 PEI, Canada | Subject: RE: Fred D Mentor Group Part III mndymond - 2012-12-10 4:39 PM ChrisM - 2012-12-10 1:07 PM Road to Hana would be good. I don't think I'm in good enough shape for Haleakala. I had planned to do it before I got sick so now something flatter might be nice! mndymond - 2012-12-10 11:47 AM 7 more sleeps till Maui!!! Woooo woooo!!! training has been more consistent so I'm ready for some good training in the land of warm! Trying to convince my bro to do a 5k with me in Lahaina on Jan 5. Been in the OR...successfully done 2 spinal anesthetics so far..good day all around. Trainer ride planned for this evening!Hook up with Maui Cyclery in Paia for a ride up Haleakala, or the Road to Hana. I can also recommend Flyin Hawaiian zipline above the Maui Tropical Plantation. Excellent operation, last zip is something like 1700 feet long, at one point going 70 mph and 10 feet off the ground..... wow haha. Thanks for the suggestion Chris!Wait, the Road to Hana on a bike??? I have memories of that road being a twisted narrow stretch of madness in a car, I can't imagine on a bike! |
| 2012-12-10 5:09 PM in reply to: #4529876 |
| Subject: RE: Fred D Mentor Group Part III axteraa - 2012-12-10 3:08 PM mndymond - 2012-12-10 4:39 PM ChrisM - 2012-12-10 1:07 PM Road to Hana would be good. I don't think I'm in good enough shape for Haleakala. I had planned to do it before I got sick so now something flatter might be nice! mndymond - 2012-12-10 11:47 AM 7 more sleeps till Maui!!! Woooo woooo!!! training has been more consistent so I'm ready for some good training in the land of warm! Trying to convince my bro to do a 5k with me in Lahaina on Jan 5. Been in the OR...successfully done 2 spinal anesthetics so far..good day all around. Trainer ride planned for this evening!Hook up with Maui Cyclery in Paia for a ride up Haleakala, or the Road to Hana. I can also recommend Flyin Hawaiian zipline above the Maui Tropical Plantation. Excellent operation, last zip is something like 1700 feet long, at one point going 70 mph and 10 feet off the ground..... wow haha. Thanks for the suggestion Chris!Wait, the Road to Hana on a bike??? I have memories of that road being a twisted narrow stretch of madness in a car, I can't imagine on a bike! I thought/think the same thing... but the guys at the shop say it's an amazing ride, best one on the island. Start from Paia early so you don't hit all the traffic. I'd be worried about drivers not paying attention |
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