Sept 15-Oct 15 "Daniel's Running Formula" Book Club (Page 11)

I'm going to try a run this weekend.  I can still "feel it" but it doesn't feel too bad.  I'm going to take it really, really easy.  I fricking can not have a three year battle with this.  I won't make it.  I need to be able to run or my family will have me committed.

I'll tell you what makes it hurt.  Sitting at a desk for fourteen hours a day for three days straight.  Makes it throb...

Originally posted by switch

Originally posted by popsracer

Originally posted by switch

Originally posted by Asalzwed I've never thought of M pace that way. Very interesting! Often people tend to say that you are "getting the feel" for running at M but I've never liked that answer. Thank you for this.

Agreed.  This was really helpful.

I'm back at JD, gang.  Had to take a break because of a crazy work deadline.  I have my life back now.

Where's Steve?  He's MIA...

Out of town for a few days.  I'm doing my long run today at M pace but because my M pace is so slow it actually is an exercise in discipline to take it down a notch.  I have a marathon next weekend and this is kind of a 13-15 mile simulation.

Is your ankle/AT any better?  I went through AT for three years before getting past it.  I just could not take it easy and I kept aggravating it.

  Good, when I don't see my friends post for a few days I start to worry.

I'm going to try a run this weekend.  I can still "feel it" but it doesn't feel too bad.  I'm going to take it really, really easy.  I fricking can not have a three year battle with this.  I won't make it.  I need to be able to run or my family will have me committed.

I'll tell you what makes it hurt.  Sitting at a desk for fourteen hours a day for three days straight.  Makes it throb...

Hmmm, my teammate had acute achilles tendonitis and it maybe sounds like you had chronic achilles tendonitis, right Steve? From what I understand (which may not be correct) is that these are two different injuries.

Also from what I understand is that acute can become chronic if it's not given proper rest/treatment. So, please be careful. No sense turning this thing into a multi-year issue.

Did you start running yet, Elesa? How did it feel? If so, did you run on alternate surfaces or anything?

Yes!  I did a 5 miler yesterday and it felt great! I ran on a hilly, paved MUP.  I thought I might try running in the grass next to the path, put it was pretty uneven in there, and I thought the unpredictability might be a bad idea.

 Really, it was so weird, it's the best my leg/ankle thing has felt in days.  It almost feels like it's some sort of weird perfusion issue.  I have really low BP (high 80s over low fifties/high forties) and when I sit for a long time, as I had to do for a grant deadline last week, my lower legs can swell quite a bit.  Bad combo with whatever thing I have going on with my leg, as it just made it throb.  Anyway, the run felt AWESOME. 

I had to seriously hold back, as I just felt so fresh from all the rest that is felt really good.  it didn't hurt more after the run than before, and this morning it was there but not tlaking to me.  Don't know if that makes sense...

I'm going to do another short run this evening, and I promise I'll keep it easy :)

Ok, sounds like what I was thinking. It's not like LT or VO2 running where there is a spot to work. More like Z2, but at a higher level. More stress for the time run, but also more risk, so use wisely. And as much as he likes it, still put the other areas as more priority for the most part.

I see where the sweet spot comparison sort of makes sense, but not sure I'd put it quite up there for most people as it's right on the Z3/Z4 border, and one would have to be quite fast to run a marathon there. But that's getting a bit technical about things.

Liked reading about the R-pace running. Seems I've kind of been doing that at times in the past. Will be interesting to see how it goes with a much better understanding of it. With how much I push on the bike, haven't been able to do T-pace or I-pace as much as I'd like. Be interesting to see how much better this can help take that fitness and work it into running.

Compression socks are my friends :)  I wear them when I drive, long days at work.  And, yes, they are sexxeh!

Run last night was awesome, folks.  I'm probably not going to run today, as I'm traveling for work.  But I'm very pleased with the last two days of running. 

I had been planning on, and had started, a run focus this fall, thinking I'd then shift to a swim focus mid November, and then a bike focus around mid January.  I've switched that around now due to the leg/ankle thing, and am picking up my swim focus now.  Feels good to get back in the water, and, holy crap, I've lost a lot!

Back, to JD, do any of you use the Barry P plan?  If so, how do you dovetail JD and Barry P? 

I like Barry P's plan and recommend it to anyone who's new to running.  Mainly because a lot of people (looking at you Salty ) like simple plans that don't require "extrapolating".

So with Barry P we have 6 runs:

3 Short (1/3 of long distance)

2 Medium (2/3 of long distance)

1 Long

Where you build the mileage by 10% 

I usually recommend making one of the short runs kind of a quality day (track workout, hill repeats) and one of the medium runs a tempo run (warmup then running at T pace).  Doing that with the other runs at E builds a solid skeleton for a runner to work up to a more complicated strategy.

Edit:  

Training for an earlier summer race, I used the Barry P plan sort of with JD's speedwork mixed in:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AvYJPqk_DAdxdFZmVlRnYUtoVVRTc2RKUnVhWmJ2aFE&usp=sharing

Heh heh effin' extrapolating...

Yeah. I think Barry P gives a newbie a really simple guide for being consistent AND keeping that long run in check, relative to the rest of the weekly milage.

Other than that, from what I understand, it doesn't give you any guidance in regard to specific workouts, periodization etc. 

Are you still keeping the same order for these in lieu of your training priorities swapping around?

Ooooh, you fancy, HUH? I dunno if I am ready for something like Gold or not.

In fact, I am starting to think about exactly how I am going to train for my next marathon. Hmmmm....

I just skimmed over the color plans on my way to some of the more distance specific plans.  I think I'm going to just create my own based on some of the earlier phase discussion in the book.  Since I'm just starting to introduce "real" quality work into my schedule I want to be very cautious in order to avoid injury.

Each of the two weeks I've done a repeat workout (Q1) and a quasi-LT run (Q2) along with several easy runs and a long run.  I'm tapering this week for a marathon which kinds of messes with things.  I'll throw in a Q2 of "I" type if I feel really good but only occasionally.

I still am swimming and biking a few days a week so definately plays a role in scheduling but I'm finding that the swim/bike at this point is more maintenance and very manageable.  As swim/bike ramp up in January one of the easy runs will probably be dropped to make up 3 swims/3 rides/4 runs.

On another note, I read something kind of interesting in the race prep/execution section.  JD says that if you are struggling in a race instead of slowing down, speed up.  Sometimes, by utilizing a different muscle set/stride you can get back on track.  For me, I think when I slow down in the latter stages of a race, and I'm talking mostly marathon and HM, I get in a downward spiral where I start losing all economy in my stride and I feel worse and worse.  I'm just trying to figure out why my marathon races have been so far off the calculators.  I've been forced to run at a pace much slower than my long runs to deal with the last 6 miles of the marathon and am thinking that is counterproductive.  I hope this is making some kind of sense.  

I was thinking about that "speed up" philosophy when you were talking about marathon pacing.

Do you feel as though you were fully prepared for your marathons in the past? What kind of mileage were you running per week? How long were your long runs and did you do any of them with some M pace thrown in? 

I will say that the 5-15k plan worked wonders for me.  I ran my 10K and half marathon PR's after spending a winter doing it.

Fantastic advice. I found that those medium long runs during the week were amazing in helping support my long run during my marathon training. I will most definitely be doing that again.

Not fully prepared.  I've was going 25-30 miles a week with fairly regular long runs of 13-15 miles.  But also swimming/biking so total weeks were about 10 hours.  The thing is, and this is what got me thinking, that I do my long runs about 30 seconds faster than M-pace.  When I slow them down to M-pace is when I start to struggle much more in the latter stages of the run.

I've run almost 1,000 miles this year, almost 2,000 riding, and 160k swimming.  I've run four HM's this year and I'm about 1:50 HM.  I've also done 2 marathons and a 50 miler this year.  Last month was 135 miles running.  Even slowing it down to 10:00/mile or 4:20, I collapse.  If I run 13 at 9:00/mile I feel way better than at 10:00.   I don't get tired, or feel I have no strength, I just get to a point where everything just hurts.  If I walk for a bit, things loosen up and I'm good to go again.   I feel I have the endurance, cardio, strength, speed.  For the most part I feel great after my long runs.  It's that 20-22 mile mark that is the monkey on my back.

So bottomline, I think my miles are still on the light side but I feel I should be able to run a marathon without so much struggle in the last 4-6 miles given the amount of consistent workload I've done over the last two years.  I'm searching for a strategy for Saturday's race.  The first 9 miles is all gradual downhill then flat.  Do I run the faster pace where I feel more comfortable and hope I can last?  Run the faster pace and throw in some walk breaks?  Just keep it slow from the start and throw in walk breaks?  I think I'm trying to rationalize stepping my pace up a notch with the theory that I'll increase my economy enough to get me through.

BTW I would be curious to hear people's response to Jason's question in this thread http://beginnertriathlete.com/discussion/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=501941&posts=19&page=1

"

This is why I asked at what point is two runs equal to one 20.  If 15 and 5 is still less than 20...what happens physiologically in the last 5 miles of a 20 miler that gets you additional fitness gains?  If during a 20 miler your HR increases from 130 the first hour, to 140 the second hour, to 150 the third hour, you can still simulate the time spent in those HR ranges with equal amounts of time in each zone with a 15 and 5 mile run (or 2x10, 12 and 8, etc.) by tweaking the intensity.

There are definitely more than one way to reach a goal.  In no way am I saying that you shouldn't run long.  There are benefits of learning mentally what type of paces you can hold, how you deal with nutrition, and how you adjust to temperatures possibly getting warmer the longer you run.  But I think a lot of people get caught up in "the long run is more important than any other run" train of thought. 

I say this in very general terms.  Someone can dig up some study if they want to that proves the long run provides 3% more benefit than running an equal distance over 2 days if they want to.  I'm trying to dispel the notion that some people tend to believe the long run provides something like 30% more benefit than running equal distance over more days (Bruce, not saying this is what you think, but there are others who seem to think so).  Hence why you see hundreds of threads asking about how they should structure their 16, 18, and 20 mile long runs because they don't want to give them up...but they only run 15-20 miles during the mid week.  Not implying that's the OP (I know the OP puts in her miles), but it's true that 90% of the "what should I do about my running" threads always emphasize the long run...and all the other miles tend to get overlooked as if they don't matter.

Just my 2 cents."

In marathon training, that is quite low mileage AND those long runs are quite short. I definitely believe the weekly milage should support the long run, and even in your case your weekly long was nearly 50% of your mileage.  They should both be higher in order for you to be more successful.  Just for starters ...

Look where you are in terms of potential