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 2014-01-27 10:05 AM in reply to: JBacarella |
Pro  4675     Wisconsin near the Twin Cities metro |  Subject: RE: Birkierunner's (Jim Kelley) General + Long Course Group (OPEN)Originally posted by JBacarella Originally posted by Birkierunner Would it be better to find something in October or November then? Using the HIM as a tune up? And Yes I live in Northeast Michigan on Lake Huron. Originally posted by JBacarella There is an iron distance race that is semi-convenient for me in mid-August, but it is 3 weeks before a HIM that I have to do. Its in my home town, I am heavily involved in the planning of the event and the city has me as its liaison to the event. Plus, I am literally the only person who lives in my county that does the HIM (plenty of people from here do the spring and a few do the Olympic). Is 3 weeks enough time to recover between the two races? Mind you I will say that I just want to complete the Iron distance race, but don't believe my BS, when the race starts I will not be able to control myself and I will try to beat people. I would not advise this at all. Regardless of how hard you race an Ironman it is still 140.6 miles of racing and you will not be recovered enough to do the HIM justice. Jim, I would sit down and ask myself "what is my goal for this year?". As an outside oberver it sounds like the HIM event is your goal for the year for a variety of reasons. That is great! However, it sounds like you're trying to squeeze in an ironman in a casual manner without really planning things out. I don't mean to sound harsh when I say that, but you need to decide if 2014 is the "year of ironman" for you or not. You can have two "A" races in a given year but that takes planning, good scheduling, etc. I would give myself 5-8 weeks (depending on the athlete) between a tune-up HIM and an IM, so obviously that would put a potential IM into at least November for you. I am not familiar with non-IM brand independent race availability. Howerver, the only November events in the U.S. in Nov are FL and AZ and they are sold out. The other option is Cozumel if you want to travel abroad. If I were coaching you I would advise that you wait until 2015 for an IM if you can find an event based on your schedule and geography, and see whether registration is still open if its an IM brand race. Make that your "A" race and plan your year around it. |
| 2014-01-27 12:47 PM in reply to: 0 |
Member 213 | Subject: RE: Birkierunner's (Jim Kelley) General + Long Course Group (OPEN) [Thanks so much Todd, that was really helpful!!! I paced my first "long run" the other day with run/walk at a slightly slower pace then I want to go and it averaged out to 11:28min/mile for the hour. I checked and that boils down to a 5 hour Marathon. If I were able to maintain that pace for the whole Marathon portion, which I think I can, I will be happy with it.] I would be happy with that too! Edited by trei 2014-01-27 12:49 PM |
| 2014-01-27 1:35 PM in reply to: Birkierunner |
| 7 Greenfield, Indiana | Subject: RE: Birkierunner's (Jim Kelley) General + Long Course Group (OPEN) Originally posted by Birkierunner Originally posted by bwalden It seems that you guys are generally a more experienced group of triathletes, so I would like to pose this question: From where you are now, what general advice would you give to someone just starting out so that they can be better off in the long term? I aspire to compete in an IM, and be competitive in my age group for shorter races. As an engineer, I tend to over-think things and I keep getting caught up thinking about appropriate training intensities as well as how to train in general. I am planning on starting the 20 week Olympic 3x balanced plan in a couple of months, and it says that for your first year you should only be focused on volume of training not intensity. Would you agree? Can you provide a link to the specific plan you are referencing? I looked in the BT list of plans and didn't find it, although there is a 21 week plan mentioned and I didn't see where it says to focus only on volume and not intensity. If it says that, then I would not agree with that philosophy. But, before I say why I would like to know exactly what the plan says. Thanks. Here is the link to the training plan I am looking at: http://beginnertriathlete.com/discussion/training/training-plans-vi... "This program IS JUST a volume-builder. If your new to endurance, its recommended to focus on only volume for your first year, the following years you can start adding intensity-specific workouts as you will have a good base. BUT the following program is easily modified for intensity training." Let me know what you think. |
| 2014-01-28 11:56 AM in reply to: bwalden |
Pro 4675 Wisconsin near the Twin Cities metro | Subject: RE: Birkierunner's (Jim Kelley) General + Long Course Group (OPEN) Originally posted by bwalden Originally posted by Birkierunner Here is the link to the training plan I am looking at: http://beginnertriathlete.com/discussion/training/training-plans-vi... "This program IS JUST a volume-builder. If your new to endurance, its recommended to focus on only volume for your first year, the following years you can start adding intensity-specific workouts as you will have a good base. BUT the following program is easily modified for intensity training." Let me know what you think. Originally posted by bwalden It seems that you guys are generally a more experienced group of triathletes, so I would like to pose this question: From where you are now, what general advice would you give to someone just starting out so that they can be better off in the long term? I aspire to compete in an IM, and be competitive in my age group for shorter races. As an engineer, I tend to over-think things and I keep getting caught up thinking about appropriate training intensities as well as how to train in general. I am planning on starting the 20 week Olympic 3x balanced plan in a couple of months, and it says that for your first year you should only be focused on volume of training not intensity. Would you agree? Can you provide a link to the specific plan you are referencing? I looked in the BT list of plans and didn't find it, although there is a 21 week plan mentioned and I didn't see where it says to focus only on volume and not intensity. If it says that, then I would not agree with that philosophy. But, before I say why I would like to know exactly what the plan says. Thanks. If the plan advocated focusing only on volume and NO intensity, then I would have a big problem with that approach. However, that doesn't appear to be the case and, as you quoted, the program is easily modified for "intensity training". Regardless of how much of a beginner someone is, to say that you can't do ANY intensity work for your first training plan is simply silly. "intensity" is relative to the individual so no one is going to advocate a beginner should be doing the same pace workout as an elite. However, they can still do more intense workouts that are scaled to that person's fitness level and experience. To focus only on volume for a year is selling yourself short. |
| 2014-01-28 11:59 AM in reply to: Birkierunner |
Pro 4675 Wisconsin near the Twin Cities metro | Subject: RE: Birkierunner's (Jim Kelley) General + Long Course Group (OPEN) OK, when this group first started there were several folks that wanted to discuss HIM and IM nutrition planning. We have had a couple of chats about that, but let's get a little more detail oriented.... Who has already developed a tentative approach to their ironman training and racing nutrition plan and is willing to share with us so we can discuss? Be specific as much as you can (ounces, grams, timing, etc) and provide the rationale for why you have chosen your approach. Its not a test and don't be afraid of saying "I don't know". This is designed to help you get to the finish line. |
| 2014-01-28 12:46 PM in reply to: Birkierunner |
| Member 763 | Subject: RE: Birkierunner's (Jim Kelley) General + Long Course Group (OPEN) Originally posted by Birkierunner OK, when this group first started there were several folks that wanted to discuss HIM and IM nutrition planning. We have had a couple of chats about that, but let's get a little more detail oriented.... Who has already developed a tentative approach to their ironman training and racing nutrition plan and is willing to share with us so we can discuss? Be specific as much as you can (ounces, grams, timing, etc) and provide the rationale for why you have chosen your approach. Its not a test and don't be afraid of saying "I don't know". This is designed to help you get to the finish line. I'll lead off...not sure if this is what you're looking for, but in any case.... a few days before race day, a mugful of chicken broth with dinner to increase electrolytes in my system. medium carbo load and lean protein the week before a race - but this part is not out of the ordinary for me. race morning - coffee, toasted bagel with peanut butter, and some Cliffshot electrolyte drink. Maybe a bar or gel depending on how my stomach is doing and what time I wake up. T1 - 1/2ish bottle of water bike leg - sip water for the first 15ish minutes to let my stomach settle from swim. every hour 2 salt tabs. 2 Clif shot blocks pieces every half hour, water and clif electrolyte drink every 15 minutes, switch back and forth. T2 - water, and I usually have some additional shot blocks in my bag in case I feel I need them. run leg - 2 salt tabs every hour and eat off the course. My rationale...well, i've tried clif bars, bonk breakers, GUs, and other products, but my stomach handles the Clif shot blocks best. Same goes for Clif electrolyte drink mix. (my stomach also likes the chocolate honey waffles, but those are so hard to eat while biking, so I usually don't bother...maybe i'll stash some in T2 this year, we'll see.) That's about it for me. What do you think? |
| 2014-01-28 1:15 PM in reply to: Birkierunner |
Expert 2811 | Subject: RE: Birkierunner's (Jim Kelley) General + Long Course Group (OPEN) Originally posted by Birkierunner Originally posted by JBacarella Originally posted by Birkierunner Would it be better to find something in October or November then? Using the HIM as a tune up? And Yes I live in Northeast Michigan on Lake Huron. Originally posted by JBacarella There is an iron distance race that is semi-convenient for me in mid-August, but it is 3 weeks before a HIM that I have to do. Its in my home town, I am heavily involved in the planning of the event and the city has me as its liaison to the event. Plus, I am literally the only person who lives in my county that does the HIM (plenty of people from here do the spring and a few do the Olympic). Is 3 weeks enough time to recover between the two races? Mind you I will say that I just want to complete the Iron distance race, but don't believe my BS, when the race starts I will not be able to control myself and I will try to beat people. I would not advise this at all. Regardless of how hard you race an Ironman it is still 140.6 miles of racing and you will not be recovered enough to do the HIM justice. Jim, I would sit down and ask myself "what is my goal for this year?". As an outside observer it sounds like the HIM event is your goal for the year for a variety of reasons. That is great! However, it sounds like you're trying to squeeze in an ironman in a casual manner without really planning things out. I don't mean to sound harsh when I say that, but you need to decide if 2014 is the "year of ironman" for you or not. You can have two "A" races in a given year but that takes planning, good scheduling, etc. I would give myself 5-8 weeks (depending on the athlete) between a tune-up HIM and an IM, so obviously that would put a potential IM into at least November for you. I am not familiar with non-IM brand independent race availability. However, the only November events in the U.S. in Nov are FL and AZ and they are sold out. The other option is Cozumel if you want to travel abroad. If I were coaching you I would advise that you wait until 2015 for an IM if you can find an event based on your schedule and geography, and see whether registration is still open if its an IM brand race. Make that your "A" race and plan your year around it. Thanks Jim. Please don't ever worry about harsh when talking to me. I prefer blunt and between the eyes over kind and gentle  . You are correct, I am trying to squeeze the IM in. Its more impatience than anything. Since posting, I did have a chance to think it over and for a variety of reasons decided I need to wait until late 2015 for IM. The most compelling are Dad issues. My youngest is 13 and I have coached all of my kids in a variety of sports since before they were in school, soccer, baseball, softball and basketball. I realized that I have only another year and a half of coaching my kids and I will be "retired." Plus daughter #2 graduates in Spring of 2015. That leaves me without any additional obligations other than going to their games and cheering. That also means as of May 2015, I will have an additional 5-20 hours per week freed up and my wife has not claimed them...yet. |
| 2014-01-28 1:41 PM in reply to: LarchmontTri |
Pro 4675 Wisconsin near the Twin Cities metro | Subject: RE: Birkierunner's (Jim Kelley) General + Long Course Group (OPEN) Originally posted by LarchmontTri Originally posted by Birkierunner I'll lead off...not sure if this is what you're looking for, but in any case.... a few days before race day, a mugful of chicken broth with dinner to increase electrolytes in my system. medium carbo load and lean protein the week before a race - but this part is not out of the ordinary for me. race morning - coffee, toasted bagel with peanut butter, and some Cliffshot electrolyte drink. Maybe a bar or gel depending on how my stomach is doing and what time I wake up. T1 - 1/2ish bottle of water bike leg - sip water for the first 15ish minutes to let my stomach settle from swim. every hour 2 salt tabs. 2 Clif shot blocks pieces every half hour, water and clif electrolyte drink every 15 minutes, switch back and forth. T2 - water, and I usually have some additional shot blocks in my bag in case I feel I need them. run leg - 2 salt tabs every hour and eat off the course. My rationale...well, i've tried clif bars, bonk breakers, GUs, and other products, but my stomach handles the Clif shot blocks best. Same goes for Clif electrolyte drink mix. (my stomach also likes the chocolate honey waffles, but those are so hard to eat while biking, so I usually don't bother...maybe i'll stash some in T2 this year, we'll see.) That's about it for me. What do you think? OK, when this group first started there were several folks that wanted to discuss HIM and IM nutrition planning. We have had a couple of chats about that, but let's get a little more detail oriented.... Who has already developed a tentative approach to their ironman training and racing nutrition plan and is willing to share with us so we can discuss? Be specific as much as you can (ounces, grams, timing, etc) and provide the rationale for why you have chosen your approach. Its not a test and don't be afraid of saying "I don't know". This is designed to help you get to the finish line. Is this for a HIM or IM? Have you figured out hourly calories and oz of fluid? Have you done a sweat test? |
| 2014-01-28 1:57 PM in reply to: Birkierunner |
| 7 Greenfield, Indiana | Subject: RE: Birkierunner's (Jim Kelley) General + Long Course Group (OPEN) Originally posted by Birkierunner Originally posted by bwalden Originally posted by Birkierunner Here is the link to the training plan I am looking at: http://beginnertriathlete.com/discussion/training/training-plans-vi... "This program IS JUST a volume-builder. If your new to endurance, its recommended to focus on only volume for your first year, the following years you can start adding intensity-specific workouts as you will have a good base. BUT the following program is easily modified for intensity training." Let me know what you think. Originally posted by bwalden It seems that you guys are generally a more experienced group of triathletes, so I would like to pose this question: From where you are now, what general advice would you give to someone just starting out so that they can be better off in the long term? I aspire to compete in an IM, and be competitive in my age group for shorter races. As an engineer, I tend to over-think things and I keep getting caught up thinking about appropriate training intensities as well as how to train in general. I am planning on starting the 20 week Olympic 3x balanced plan in a couple of months, and it says that for your first year you should only be focused on volume of training not intensity. Would you agree? Can you provide a link to the specific plan you are referencing? I looked in the BT list of plans and didn't find it, although there is a 21 week plan mentioned and I didn't see where it says to focus only on volume and not intensity. If it says that, then I would not agree with that philosophy. But, before I say why I would like to know exactly what the plan says. Thanks. If the plan advocated focusing only on volume and NO intensity, then I would have a big problem with that approach. However, that doesn't appear to be the case and, as you quoted, the program is easily modified for "intensity training". Regardless of how much of a beginner someone is, to say that you can't do ANY intensity work for your first training plan is simply silly. "intensity" is relative to the individual so no one is going to advocate a beginner should be doing the same pace workout as an elite. However, they can still do more intense workouts that are scaled to that person's fitness level and experience. To focus only on volume for a year is selling yourself short. Ok, thanks for the input. The training plan has a long/med/short workout for each week in each discipline. Would it be wise to make the short sessions higher intensity and the longer ones lower intensity? If so, do you recommend HR or RPE for measure of intensity? |
| 2014-01-28 7:06 PM in reply to: Birkierunner |
| 240 | Subject: RE: Birkierunner's (Jim Kelley) General + Long Course Group (OPEN) Originally posted by Birkierunner OK, when this group first started there were several folks that wanted to discuss HIM and IM nutrition planning. We have had a couple of chats about that, but let's get a little more detail oriented.... Who has already developed a tentative approach to their ironman training and racing nutrition plan and is willing to share with us so we can discuss? Be specific as much as you can (ounces, grams, timing, etc) and provide the rationale for why you have chosen your approach. Its not a test and don't be afraid of saying "I don't know". This is designed to help you get to the finish line. Ok, here was my nutrition from my first HIM from back in Dec, HITS Palm Springs. My race this year is not until Oct, so I might tweak a bit but essentially will be pretty close to this. Few days prior to race hydrated and electrolytes. Used Heed drink in my training since that what they were going to have on course plus less sweet than others. Dinner 2 nights prior was my carbo load. My wife's pasta and chicken. The day prior to race was mostly simply foods, fruit, chicken, veggies, etc. Nothing heavy after 3pm. Race Day Breakfast- was the usual, whole wheat bagel with PB, banana and half a cliff builder bar (535 cal). Then gel 15 min before T1 (125). On Bike- nothing the first 15 min but was on the bike 3 hours, so wanted to get a total of about 900 calories. 1st hour- 1x low sugar Uncrustable, half Bonk Bite, 8 oz Heed (300 cal) 2nd hour- 1x low sugar Uncrustable, half Bonk Bite, 8 oz Heed (300 cal) 3rd hour- half Bonk Bite, 8oz Heed (200 cal) Run- was just <2 hours so avg 175 per hour 1st- gel and Heed (175) 2nd- purely coke and water, just needed the sugar to get across the finish line as I had nothing left the last couple of miles. Post race- as much cookies, pizza and beer as I could eat. I think I pretty much nailed my calories. My only issue was that it was a cold day 50 degrees, so I did not sweat nearly as much as in training, which really threw off my liquid intake. Should have drank less and would have ok. My race is in Vegas in Oct so should be much hotter. Would be open to any suggestions or critiques. |
| 2014-01-28 9:02 PM in reply to: bwalden |
Pro 4675 Wisconsin near the Twin Cities metro | Subject: RE: Birkierunner's (Jim Kelley) General + Long Course Group (OPEN) Originally posted by bwalden Originally posted by Birkierunner Ok, thanks for the input. The training plan has a long/med/short workout for each week in each discipline. Would it be wise to make the short sessions higher intensity and the longer ones lower intensity? If so, do you recommend HR or RPE for measure of intensity? Originally posted by bwalden Originally posted by Birkierunner Here is the link to the training plan I am looking at: http://beginnertriathlete.com/discussion/training/training-plans-vi... "This program IS JUST a volume-builder. If your new to endurance, its recommended to focus on only volume for your first year, the following years you can start adding intensity-specific workouts as you will have a good base. BUT the following program is easily modified for intensity training." Let me know what you think. Originally posted by bwalden It seems that you guys are generally a more experienced group of triathletes, so I would like to pose this question: From where you are now, what general advice would you give to someone just starting out so that they can be better off in the long term? I aspire to compete in an IM, and be competitive in my age group for shorter races. As an engineer, I tend to over-think things and I keep getting caught up thinking about appropriate training intensities as well as how to train in general. I am planning on starting the 20 week Olympic 3x balanced plan in a couple of months, and it says that for your first year you should only be focused on volume of training not intensity. Would you agree? Can you provide a link to the specific plan you are referencing? I looked in the BT list of plans and didn't find it, although there is a 21 week plan mentioned and I didn't see where it says to focus only on volume and not intensity. If it says that, then I would not agree with that philosophy. But, before I say why I would like to know exactly what the plan says. Thanks. If the plan advocated focusing only on volume and NO intensity, then I would have a big problem with that approach. However, that doesn't appear to be the case and, as you quoted, the program is easily modified for "intensity training". Regardless of how much of a beginner someone is, to say that you can't do ANY intensity work for your first training plan is simply silly. "intensity" is relative to the individual so no one is going to advocate a beginner should be doing the same pace workout as an elite. However, they can still do more intense workouts that are scaled to that person's fitness level and experience. To focus only on volume for a year is selling yourself short. I wouldn't make every short session higher intensity but if and when you decide to do a higher intensity workout I would pick days that call for shorter sessions...unless those short sessions are meant to be a recovery from a very long session the day before. As you gain more experience you can try doing a higher intensity for a medium length session but do so with caution if you think you are not ready for it. As for HR or RPE, frankly it is totally dependent on what you are comfortable with. You can certainly train effectively by using RPE - I've done that for much of my 35 years of training. There are some slight drawbacks with training by HR (a number of variables not related to intensity can affect HR) but you can certainly use it to guide much of your training. In order to do so you would have to determine your training zones via some simple testing as described here on BT |
| 2014-01-29 8:21 PM in reply to: Birkierunner |
| 70 Greenville, South Carolina | Subject: RE: Birkierunner's (Jim Kelley) General + Long Course Group (OPEN) Originally posted by Birkierunner OK, when this group first started there were several folks that wanted to discuss HIM and IM nutrition planning. We have had a couple of chats about that, but let's get a little more detail oriented.... Who has already developed a tentative approach to their ironman training and racing nutrition plan and is willing to share with us so we can discuss? Be specific as much as you can (ounces, grams, timing, etc) and provide the rationale for why you have chosen your approach. Its not a test and don't be afraid of saying "I don't know". This is designed to help you get to the finish line. My HIM nutrition plan was mostly based on what works on long bikes + in HM and longer runs. However, my target this year is ITU long course (so the swim is IM distance but the other 2 are basically 3/4 of IM), and I have no real plan for that yet. Also, I stick to all natural as much as I can, so I've never tried most athletic nutrition type stuff… so I may be missing some really great products. So here's what i do: 3ish days before - start remembering to drink even more water than normal, lots of lean protein and good carbs… night before - totally depends on the race, but usually eat out at somewhere that i can get pasta with chicken race morning - something involving a banana and peanut butter, sometimes one of those honey stinger waffles with the peanut butter (especially that justin's kind with chocolate or maple or something), lots of water until 30 min before or so (I bring an extra bottle to the start that i can give to my husband at the last second) T1 - so thirsty! I need to figure out how to be less desperate for water the second i get out of the lake. But anyway, I usually keep a bottle of water or Skratch in transition and drink some of it while I take off wetsuit, put on bike shoes, etc on bike - front cage has a throwaway bottle with water, back cage has a better bottle with Skratch; I sip water in the first few minutes to catch up from swim and settle in, then alternate water and skratch… at aid station around 2/3 through the bike hop off bike to use restroom and ask nice volunteers to hold bike and trade out my throwaway bottle for one of their full ones. Food: at least one Pro Bar meal replacement bar (I know some people think nuts are bad, but I like the taste and the calories), maybe a second bar that's one of those date-based fruity ones… T2 - more of that water bottle on run - I bring a fuel belt with 2 water bottles (and I supplement from aid stations as needed) and 2 packs of either honey stingers or Probar bolt chews (but I'm reconsidering the flavors with caffeine based on the recent articles about risks of caffeine in endurance sports and I almost never have caffeine outside of these chews) So I've done basically this in 2 races - the first one was hot, hot, hot and lots of people were getting dehydrated. i did mostly OK, but my fingertips were tingly about halfway through the run. I read later that that could be a sign of low vitamin B12, but I don't really know what caused it. The second one was more reasonable weather, but I got a little light-headed on the bike. Run was OK, though. |
| 2014-01-30 8:44 AM in reply to: hotalinge |
Master 2500 Crab Cake City | Subject: RE: Birkierunner's (Jim Kelley) General + Long Course Group (OPEN) My nutrition plan was put together by some trial and error and I am still working on it. Most of what I have done has been off advice and what I have seen others on BT use so this is what I used in October for my first HIM and what I plan on doing for the IM. Week of Race- Usually I will make sure I get normal healthy food intake and water intake 3 Days before Race- I try and sip an eloctrolyte drink every day 2 nights before Race- Carbo Load dinner Night before meal- Chicken with pasta, salad and some green veggies (good calories that digest well) Morning of race- PB on wheat and a banana. Gel just prior to swim start T1- usually thirsty so I will grab some water before heading out onto the bike. Bike- October was my first HIM so the first time I really tried this approach in a race. I had a bottle of water in my aero cage and two 1.5hr bottles of custom Infinit mix in both my cages. Alternated water and Infinit throught the race and took in no solids. Stuff is a custom blend at 296 calories a serving (hour). During a training ride, I tried to mix a 3hr bottle but the stuff was not good with that much Infinit in a 20oz bottle and didnt mix well enough and got clumpy. I decided to make 2 (1.5hr) bottles because they mixed better and brought some gels along with my for the ride but never used them because I felt full and hydrated throughout the ride. I did finish both bottles during my 3.5hr ride and replaced water at every aid station. T2- Sipped some water and took a gel Run- Lived off the course. Wheels fell apart here as I was well on my way to being able to beat my stretch goal time (under 7hrs). Weather was 85degrees and sunny and aid stations were about 1.5miles apart or so. I took gatorade & water at every aid station and a gel every 30mins. At one point, the gels were like warm snot since it was so hot outside and I couldnt stomach them. Towards the end of the run, I decided to try the coke at one of the aid stations and it actually tasted and felt pretty good and settled my stomache a bit. When I finished the race, I craved something salty and I got some chips and a burger. They tasted great but the top of my mouth burned whenever I ate anything for atleast 2 days. Maybe lack of salt??Surprisingly, I was not sore or hurting after the HIM and could walk just fine. This leaves me to believe I paced decently but probably had more in the tank I could have left out on the course for a faster time. I wound up finishing in 7:14:00 which was dissapointing because I ran my slowest HM ever at this race at a 2:52:00 but coming off the bike (and by going by my slowest ever HM time before) I was on pace for a 6:45:00HIM. So any suggestions about this great bonk? I do believe alot of it might have to do with being undertrained for the distance. It was a long summer with vacation, work trips, planning a wedding, honeymoon, etc and I lost lots of valuable training time. I also believe the heat really killed me though and my nutrition was not completely dialed in. An example would be that this was a 2 loop run course. The last aid station on the first loop is 1 mile away from the start line and the first aid station of the second lap is one mile from the start so I had to go 2 miles in 85degree weather without any water/gatorade, etc. When I got to the first aid station on the second lap, I was so famished I drank 3 cups of Gatorade and several cups of water and a gel. Afterwards, my stomache was very upset I got cramps and had to walk a bit. I knew I took in too much fluids but I was so thirsty in that heat. I really dont want to run with anything during the IM because my pace slows when carrying a bottle but it might just be necessary to always have something on hand? Any suggestions for tweaks? I am looking at possible taking in more calories for breakfast?? Oh and for the IM I am planning of making 4-2hr bottles of Infinit and keeping 2 at special needs and this should get me through the bike portion. I also like Bonk Breaker bars so I might keep one or two in my jersey pocket to munch on if I get the desire to have something solid. Any help would be appreciated |
| 2014-01-30 11:38 AM in reply to: hotalinge |
Pro 4675 Wisconsin near the Twin Cities metro | Subject: RE: Birkierunner's (Jim Kelley) General + Long Course Group (OPEN) Originally posted by hotalinge Originally posted by Birkierunner My HIM nutrition plan was mostly based on what works on long bikes + in HM and longer runs. However, my target this year is ITU long course (so the swim is IM distance but the other 2 are basically 3/4 of IM), and I have no real plan for that yet. Also, I stick to all natural as much as I can, so I've never tried most athletic nutrition type stuff… so I may be missing some really great products. So here's what i do: 3ish days before - start remembering to drink even more water than normal, lots of lean protein and good carbs… night before - totally depends on the race, but usually eat out at somewhere that i can get pasta with chicken race morning - something involving a banana and peanut butter, sometimes one of those honey stinger waffles with the peanut butter (especially that justin's kind with chocolate or maple or something), lots of water until 30 min before or so (I bring an extra bottle to the start that i can give to my husband at the last second) T1 - so thirsty! I need to figure out how to be less desperate for water the second i get out of the lake. But anyway, I usually keep a bottle of water or Skratch in transition and drink some of it while I take off wetsuit, put on bike shoes, etc on bike - front cage has a throwaway bottle with water, back cage has a better bottle with Skratch; I sip water in the first few minutes to catch up from swim and settle in, then alternate water and skratch… at aid station around 2/3 through the bike hop off bike to use restroom and ask nice volunteers to hold bike and trade out my throwaway bottle for one of their full ones. Food: at least one Pro Bar meal replacement bar (I know some people think nuts are bad, but I like the taste and the calories), maybe a second bar that's one of those date-based fruity ones… T2 - more of that water bottle on run - I bring a fuel belt with 2 water bottles (and I supplement from aid stations as needed) and 2 packs of either honey stingers or Probar bolt chews (but I'm reconsidering the flavors with caffeine based on the recent articles about risks of caffeine in endurance sports and I almost never have caffeine outside of these chews) So I've done basically this in 2 races - the first one was hot, hot, hot and lots of people were getting dehydrated. i did mostly OK, but my fingertips were tingly about halfway through the run. I read later that that could be a sign of low vitamin B12, but I don't really know what caused it. The second one was more reasonable weather, but I got a little light-headed on the bike. Run was OK, though. OK, when this group first started there were several folks that wanted to discuss HIM and IM nutrition planning. We have had a couple of chats about that, but let's get a little more detail oriented.... Who has already developed a tentative approach to their ironman training and racing nutrition plan and is willing to share with us so we can discuss? Be specific as much as you can (ounces, grams, timing, etc) and provide the rationale for why you have chosen your approach. Its not a test and don't be afraid of saying "I don't know". This is designed to help you get to the finish line. I LOVE Skratch Labs stuff! I tried it for the first time at IM AZ in November and plan to continue using it. Taste is by far better than any other drink I've used. I'll see if we get any more nutrition plan responses before making some comments and provide input. Keep 'em coming.... |
| 2014-01-30 6:38 PM in reply to: dmbfan4life20 |
| Member 763 | Subject: RE: Birkierunner's (Jim Kelley) General + Long Course Group (OPEN) Originally posted by dmbfan4life20 My nutrition plan was put together by some trial and error and I am still working on it. Most of what I have done has been off advice and what I have seen others on BT use so this is what I used in October for my first HIM and what I plan on doing for the IM. Week of Race- Usually I will make sure I get normal healthy food intake and water intake 3 Days before Race- I try and sip an eloctrolyte drink every day 2 nights before Race- Carbo Load dinner Night before meal- Chicken with pasta, salad and some green veggies (good calories that digest well) Morning of race- PB on wheat and a banana. Gel just prior to swim start T1- usually thirsty so I will grab some water before heading out onto the bike. Bike- October was my first HIM so the first time I really tried this approach in a race. I had a bottle of water in my aero cage and two 1.5hr bottles of custom Infinit mix in both my cages. Alternated water and Infinit throught the race and took in no solids. Stuff is a custom blend at 296 calories a serving (hour). During a training ride, I tried to mix a 3hr bottle but the stuff was not good with that much Infinit in a 20oz bottle and didnt mix well enough and got clumpy. I decided to make 2 (1.5hr) bottles because they mixed better and brought some gels along with my for the ride but never used them because I felt full and hydrated throughout the ride. I did finish both bottles during my 3.5hr ride and replaced water at every aid station. T2- Sipped some water and took a gel Run- Lived off the course. Wheels fell apart here as I was well on my way to being able to beat my stretch goal time (under 7hrs). Weather was 85degrees and sunny and aid stations were about 1.5miles apart or so. I took gatorade & water at every aid station and a gel every 30mins. At one point, the gels were like warm snot since it was so hot outside and I couldnt stomach them. Towards the end of the run, I decided to try the coke at one of the aid stations and it actually tasted and felt pretty good and settled my stomache a bit. When I finished the race, I craved something salty and I got some chips and a burger. They tasted great but the top of my mouth burned whenever I ate anything for atleast 2 days. Maybe lack of salt??Surprisingly, I was not sore or hurting after the HIM and could walk just fine. This leaves me to believe I paced decently but probably had more in the tank I could have left out on the course for a faster time. I wound up finishing in 7:14:00 which was dissapointing because I ran my slowest HM ever at this race at a 2:52:00 but coming off the bike (and by going by my slowest ever HM time before) I was on pace for a 6:45:00HIM. So any suggestions about this great bonk? I do believe alot of it might have to do with being undertrained for the distance. It was a long summer with vacation, work trips, planning a wedding, honeymoon, etc and I lost lots of valuable training time. I also believe the heat really killed me though and my nutrition was not completely dialed in. An example would be that this was a 2 loop run course. The last aid station on the first loop is 1 mile away from the start line and the first aid station of the second lap is one mile from the start so I had to go 2 miles in 85degree weather without any water/gatorade, etc. When I got to the first aid station on the second lap, I was so famished I drank 3 cups of Gatorade and several cups of water and a gel. Afterwards, my stomache was very upset I got cramps and had to walk a bit. I knew I took in too much fluids but I was so thirsty in that heat. I really dont want to run with anything during the IM because my pace slows when carrying a bottle but it might just be necessary to always have something on hand? Any suggestions for tweaks? I am looking at possible taking in more calories for breakfast?? Oh and for the IM I am planning of making 4-2hr bottles of Infinit and keeping 2 at special needs and this should get me through the bike portion. I also like Bonk Breaker bars so I might keep one or two in my jersey pocket to munch on if I get the desire to have something solid. Any help would be appreciated Matt - did you take salt tabs or any electrolyte supplements during your HIM? Perhaps you're a heavy sweater? Your first HIM sounds alot like mine - mine too was super hot, in the mid to high 90s. I'm pretty sure I suffered from a lack of salt, and depending on conditions a lack of salt can be quite dangerous. I've since added salt tabs to my nutrition regimen and things go much better these days. I would suggest you try them. I bet they will alleviate your post race craving for salt. Otherwise, your plan seems about right, but I'm no expert. Just my two cents. |
| 2014-01-30 11:51 PM in reply to: 0 |
| Member 763 | Subject: RE: Birkierunner's (Jim Kelley) General + Long Course Group (OPEN) Is this for a HIM or IM? Have you figured out hourly calories and oz of fluid? Have you done a sweat test? Jim - this is generally my plan for a HIM, and I pretty much doubled it for my IM. When i did IMFL in 2012, my plan also had clif bars (ie. rotating back and forth between clif bars and clif blocks) , but my stomach no longer likes clif bars, so hence my reliance upon Clif Blocks these days. Some other gels are ok, but I find clif blocks are easy to eat and stash in a pocket while on the go. Have you figured out hourly calories or oz of fluid? No, haven't tried. Have you done a sweat test? No, haven't done one. My initial HIM was done with alot of nutrition planning, and I suffered. I was short on calories and salt. It was mid-90s in the sun, and I wilted big time. I knew salt was an issue because as soon as I finished, I craved salt. Pretty obvious, eh? So, 2 salt tabs per hour is key for me now, and since I've added them, my nutrition plan (and race results) has gotten much better. All this said, I'm open to ideas about my nutrition plan. With a HIM and IM on my race schedule this year, any improvements will be helpful. But my training is far more of a limiting factor than is my nutrition, and I'm working on it, but that's another story... Edited by LarchmontTri 2014-01-30 11:55 PM |
| 2014-01-31 1:04 PM in reply to: LarchmontTri |
Master 2500 Crab Cake City | Subject: RE: Birkierunner's (Jim Kelley) General + Long Course Group (OPEN) Originally posted by LarchmontTri Originally posted by dmbfan4life20 My nutrition plan was put together by some trial and error and I am still working on it. Most of what I have done has been off advice and what I have seen others on BT use so this is what I used in October for my first HIM and what I plan on doing for the IM. Week of Race- Usually I will make sure I get normal healthy food intake and water intake 3 Days before Race- I try and sip an eloctrolyte drink every day 2 nights before Race- Carbo Load dinner Night before meal- Chicken with pasta, salad and some green veggies (good calories that digest well) Morning of race- PB on wheat and a banana. Gel just prior to swim start T1- usually thirsty so I will grab some water before heading out onto the bike. Bike- October was my first HIM so the first time I really tried this approach in a race. I had a bottle of water in my aero cage and two 1.5hr bottles of custom Infinit mix in both my cages. Alternated water and Infinit throught the race and took in no solids. Stuff is a custom blend at 296 calories a serving (hour). During a training ride, I tried to mix a 3hr bottle but the stuff was not good with that much Infinit in a 20oz bottle and didnt mix well enough and got clumpy. I decided to make 2 (1.5hr) bottles because they mixed better and brought some gels along with my for the ride but never used them because I felt full and hydrated throughout the ride. I did finish both bottles during my 3.5hr ride and replaced water at every aid station. T2- Sipped some water and took a gel Run- Lived off the course. Wheels fell apart here as I was well on my way to being able to beat my stretch goal time (under 7hrs). Weather was 85degrees and sunny and aid stations were about 1.5miles apart or so. I took gatorade & water at every aid station and a gel every 30mins. At one point, the gels were like warm snot since it was so hot outside and I couldnt stomach them. Towards the end of the run, I decided to try the coke at one of the aid stations and it actually tasted and felt pretty good and settled my stomache a bit. When I finished the race, I craved something salty and I got some chips and a burger. They tasted great but the top of my mouth burned whenever I ate anything for atleast 2 days. Maybe lack of salt??Surprisingly, I was not sore or hurting after the HIM and could walk just fine. This leaves me to believe I paced decently but probably had more in the tank I could have left out on the course for a faster time. I wound up finishing in 7:14:00 which was dissapointing because I ran my slowest HM ever at this race at a 2:52:00 but coming off the bike (and by going by my slowest ever HM time before) I was on pace for a 6:45:00HIM. So any suggestions about this great bonk? I do believe alot of it might have to do with being undertrained for the distance. It was a long summer with vacation, work trips, planning a wedding, honeymoon, etc and I lost lots of valuable training time. I also believe the heat really killed me though and my nutrition was not completely dialed in. An example would be that this was a 2 loop run course. The last aid station on the first loop is 1 mile away from the start line and the first aid station of the second lap is one mile from the start so I had to go 2 miles in 85degree weather without any water/gatorade, etc. When I got to the first aid station on the second lap, I was so famished I drank 3 cups of Gatorade and several cups of water and a gel. Afterwards, my stomache was very upset I got cramps and had to walk a bit. I knew I took in too much fluids but I was so thirsty in that heat. I really dont want to run with anything during the IM because my pace slows when carrying a bottle but it might just be necessary to always have something on hand? Any suggestions for tweaks? I am looking at possible taking in more calories for breakfast?? Oh and for the IM I am planning of making 4-2hr bottles of Infinit and keeping 2 at special needs and this should get me through the bike portion. I also like Bonk Breaker bars so I might keep one or two in my jersey pocket to munch on if I get the desire to have something solid. Any help would be appreciated Matt - did you take salt tabs or any electrolyte supplements during your HIM? Perhaps you're a heavy sweater? Your first HIM sounds alot like mine - mine too was super hot, in the mid to high 90s. I'm pretty sure I suffered from a lack of salt, and depending on conditions a lack of salt can be quite dangerous. I've since added salt tabs to my nutrition regimen and things go much better these days. I would suggest you try them. I bet they will alleviate your post race craving for salt. Otherwise, your plan seems about right, but I'm no expert. Never tried the Salt Tabs as my Infinit mix has a good amout of sodium in it on the bike but I should have thought about intake on the run which I didnt. I figured things would be fine without it since I did stand alone HM w/o but I guess its different when you have already been racing for 4 hours before starting the run. Just my two cents. |
| 2014-02-02 2:16 PM in reply to: Birkierunner |
| 240 | Subject: RE: Birkierunner's (Jim Kelley) General + Long Course Group (OPEN) First race of the year done, Redondo 10k. It feels great to be healthy after knee issues last year. Super excited to be running faster than I ever have. PR'd by a bunch, 45:33 on a pretty hilly course. Now I can crack a beer and watch some football. |
| 2014-02-02 6:53 PM in reply to: 0 |
Pro 4675 Wisconsin near the Twin Cities metro | Subject: RE: Birkierunner's (Jim Kelley) General + Long Course Group (OPEN) Originally posted by StevenCFirst race of the year done, Redondo 10k. It feels great to be healthy after knee issues last year. Super excited to be running faster than I ever have. PR'd by a bunch, 45:33 on a pretty hilly course. Now I can crack a beer and watch some football. Congratulations on the PR!!! Edited by Birkierunner 2014-02-02 6:54 PM |
| 2014-02-03 11:32 AM in reply to: StevenC |
Regular 641 Chicago | Subject: RE: Birkierunner's (Jim Kelley) General + Long Course Group (OPEN) Originally posted by StevenC First race of the year done, Redondo 10k. It feels great to be healthy after knee issues last year. Super excited to be running faster than I ever have. PR'd by a bunch, 45:33 on a pretty hilly course. Now I can crack a beer and watch some football. Congrats! Your season is off to a great start. |
| 2014-02-06 9:05 AM in reply to: doxie |
Pro 4675 Wisconsin near the Twin Cities metro | Subject: RE: Birkierunner's (Jim Kelley) General + Long Course Group (OPEN) Sorry I haven't chimed in this week. Busy with national meetings at work. We have been sharing our nutrition/fueling plans and I would like to hear from others on what they plan to do for their races, or share what they have done in the past and their experiences with what they tried. Our coaching staff have put together a good article on tips for developing a fueling plan (click link) that might be of interest to everyone. Feel free to ask me any questions on the article.
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| 2014-02-07 9:09 AM in reply to: Birkierunner |
Pro 4675 Wisconsin near the Twin Cities metro | Subject: RE: Birkierunner's (Jim Kelley) General + Long Course Group (OPEN) What's on tap for everyone this weekend? Still bitter cold temps here in WI. I'm supposed to do a x-c ski race both Sat and Sunday but scheduling issues on the home front are popping up.... |
| 2014-02-07 10:50 AM in reply to: Birkierunner |
Master 2500 Crab Cake City | Subject: RE: Birkierunner's (Jim Kelley) General + Long Course Group (OPEN) 2 hours on the trainer with a friend and Trainer Road on Saturday and I have a 1 hour trail run planned for Sunday. Hopefully we wont get anymore snow that will screw up my training plans for the weekend. |
| 2014-02-07 12:25 PM in reply to: Birkierunner |
Extreme Veteran 444 North Brunswick, NJ Silver member | Subject: RE: Birkierunner's (Jim Kelley) General + Long Course Group (OPEN) I’m taking a break from the action which hopefully won’t cut in too much from what I’ve built up. I’m taking an advanced mountaineering course for a week on Mt Rainier starting tomorrow, need to get the certification before they let me join the a Mckinley expedition in the spring. Training includes a summit attempt so I figure high altitude exercise won’t hurt nor set me back too much. |
| 2014-02-07 12:59 PM in reply to: stevepiv |
Pro 4675 Wisconsin near the Twin Cities metro | Subject: RE: Birkierunner's (Jim Kelley) General + Long Course Group (OPEN) Originally posted by stevepiv I’m taking a break from the action which hopefully won’t cut in too much from what I’ve built up. I’m taking an advanced mountaineering course for a week on Mt Rainier starting tomorrow, need to get the certification before they let me join the a Mckinley expedition in the spring. Training includes a summit attempt so I figure high altitude exercise won’t hurt nor set me back too much. Very cool !!! |
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