SBR Utopia - OPEN (Page 111)

Getting a new bike or the man in white is coming to put you back in the womb?

I did some interesting analysis on the results of my hill climbing workout.  Because this climb is pretty even throughout, is very sheltered to wind, I don't draft anyone, nor are they any stop signs, it's actually a good testing ground.

One thing I noticed compared to last couple of years is that I'm pushing similar wattages for the climbs, but I'm about 4-5% slower on each climb (a little over a minute) this year.  I think my total weight of me and my bike (and any bottles, tools, ect) is about the same, but the one big difference is I'm still using my flat resistant tires instead of GP4000S tires.

So I went over to anyalytic cycling to play around with some numbers.  I don't consider this anything close to scientific, but I did some simple assumptions, including that my setup now is about 3 pounds heavier...just to make sure weight wasn't the key factor in why I'm slower.

The results were, that even 3 pound heavier...at the same wattage, the only way I could be consistantly 1 minute slower is if my crr (rolling resistance) is higher by about .002.  I took a look at that tire rolling resistance chart, and while my current tires aren't on the list (Serfas Survivor Series), I wouldn't doubt that the crr of those tires are .002 higher than the Continental GP4000S.  They really are slow tires and it is quite noticeable.

If you take a look at the chart and find two tires that have a difference of .002 in crr, the difference is about 10 watts per wheel, or 20 watts total.

Given that I have done this climb over 120 times at different power levels, I can confidently say that adds up pretty well.  For me to drop go about 1 minute faster on any given setup...I need to push about 15-20 more watts on average.  For example yesterday, I did 2 climbs at around 280 watts in roughly 26:15.  The third climb I struggled at 263 watts and it was at 27:31

It just makes me a true believer in that chart.  Many people may scoff at the idea that switching from a Gatorskin to a GP4000S can really save them 15-20 watts total, and 5-7 minutes over a HIM (more than enough time to have a flat and still be faster overall).  I was already a believer before, but now I at least have some of my own testing results to validate that chart.

Rolling resistance is a big part of tire selection but not the only factor. I have read from a few reliable sources that aerodynamics are not to be neglected. 

So while the Vittoria has better rolling resistance than the 4000s, the 4000s is better aerodynamically and enough to overcome the difference in rolling resistance

So the 4000s is more resistant, more aerodynamic and only slightly worst on rolling resistance. it is the tire recommended by Zipp and Hed. This will be my first years on 4000s. I had been racing on Vittario but was always worried about durability. This will buy me a little peace of mind.

Thomas Gerlach actually made an interesting comment. The fastest solution would be a 4000s on the front and a Vittoria on the back where aeroness is less important. To me this is being a little too picky but then again he has to make a living of this so he has the right to be picky.

I know someone who does this.  He trains with the 4000s on the front as well though and he basically is just changing his rear tire for races and that rear just has the race tire on it already.  So it is an easy setup for him

I believe I will have around 16 weeks to train for an Oly in August. If it matters, two of those weeks will be no running.

Would you guys do some sort of a "B" triathlon in there somewhere or just train right through.

If you suggest a tri, would you do a sprint or an oly?

Jason, thanks for that.  Not that I needed any convincing but it's always nice to see real world results.

I could do the GP4000s front / Vittoria rear combo as I have new ones of each.  I actually got a pair of the Vittoria Triathlon EVO rather than the CX.  They are in the mail now and I'm interested to see if that version looks any more aero than the CX (using my highly accurate eyeball windtunnel...)

I'd probably do a sprint in there just to get the whole flow of the transitions and stuff down so I know if there was anything I wanted to work on specific to your A race.  Well, honestly, I kind of suck so I wouldn't care enough, but, if I was fast and thought I had a chance at placing, I'd want a trial run to work through the kinks.  I wouldn't taper for said race of course.

Friends,

I waited for a few days after illness/lawyers/general trouble before posting this, but I think that, realistically, I have to say that while I'm not completely bowing out, you should assume that I'm mostly gone.  I just do not have time to come here, and frankly I feel really awful that some are diligently looking in on me (but thanks!) while I barely have time even to notice.  I will not say that I am gone for good, but I just cannot justify spending more than a tiny amount of time here with so much else going on that -- despite the awesomeness that I find in the good mentor groups on BT -- is more pressing.  I hope to look in sometimes, and I will certainly continue to train (if you are ever in my area, please feel free to get in touch for some training -- my contact info is just a click or two away from my profile) but I will not be checking in regularly, at least for the foreseeable future.

I wish you all the best, in training, tri, and life.

--Michael

If there's a sprint more than 2 weeks out, that would be great.

I'd definitely do something, more than likely a sprint. Timing of it depends on what you want to get out of it.

Hope you can make it back here eventually, Michael. Definitely have to keep your life in order.

That happens to me a lot too. It can even be morning/afternoon separation and still have some effect. Seems to be improving lately though.

Swimming question for Masters. We seem to have a big divide in ability at the Masters I go to, based on the 1500 yd test a little while ago. The slower half (that I'm in) did it in ~1:22/100 or slower. The faster half did it in 1:14 or better. There was nothing in between. I'm getting to a point where the breaks can be too big for some workouts, but I'm not sure I can make the workout times for the faster group. Not for the whole workout. So looking for ideas on how to approach this. Sometimes a few other guys show up and we can do some better timing, but they're not there regularly or often enough. Another is close to me, but not sure he wants to push that hard so often. And not sure I warrant my own lane.

Tonight, for example, was IM night and had twice through of a bunch of smaller sets. I could have made 1 round on the faster set, but not likely the second. Should I consider going 1 round with the faster timing and wait for round 2 with the others? Skip a 50 here and there? Other thoughts? I could vary it by what I see that day and what I think I can do. Just looking for ideas as I know we tend to think of going with the faster group, but this jump is big. Or a better idea of how much skipping is acceptable.

That's a tough situation that I face myself sometimes.  We don't have nearly as many fast swimmers and the gap is pretty big.  I swim in the second fastest lane where I can be the fastest at say 2:55 for a 200, and I'll get a little too much rest because our lane interval will be 3:30.  But the fastest lane often has ex HS and collegiate swimmers where the slowest guys/gals are doing 2:25, and are sending off on 2:45.  So there is no way I can even swim in their draft.  And one guy would probably lap me in a 200 as he'd do it under 2:00.

But luckily my alternate strokes and kicking suck pretty bad.  So while I may lead my lane for freestyle, I go last for any stroke work or kicking and am fighting to make the interval.

That is a big jump Ben and we had a similar situation in our Masters group.  We had one guy who would go back and forth between the fastest and 2nd fastest lanes to balance the numbers better.  When he swam with the faster group, he had to wear fins for much of it.  I'm not suggesting that as a solution - he knew it wasn't helping his swimming but he didn't really care either, he was there for the exercise.

I would give the faster lane a try if they aren't opposed to you hanging on at the back and skipping some 50s.  I think I would avoid trying to do the first time through a set in one lane and then dropping down for the second.  Just tell your new lane mates that you probably aren't going to be able to complete the whole thing and you will skip a 50 as necessary and will do your best to not interfere with them.  You may blow up a few times.  

You probably don't need to go up to the faster lane for every practice.  If you get a look at the practice and it looks like the type of thing that suits your strengths and you can mostly hang on for then give it a try.  If it's a day where you know you would struggle badly then stay with the other group.  

+1 to this.  

The door will always be open should things calm down for you.

Hi Michael, very sorry to see you go - like everyone else I have learned a lot from your contributions to the group. Your voice will be missed in the dialogue. But first things first, right? I am sure that I am not alone in saying that there will always be room for you at this table, even if it is on the rarest if occasions. If you get a chance please do pop in once in a while and let us know how you are getting along. In the meantime, all the best to you and your family.

Has it happened yet? I have been hiding under my bed all morning just in case it is something bad....

I like this answer - there really is no disputing the laws of physics (where is Michael just when you need him?)

I think this is actually a good example of where folks go way wrong in underestimating the importance of swim training, especially in long course racing.

Slow day at work, Jason?

Seriously, this is good info - nice to read some real-world testing results. I am just not sure I could stomach putting two different brands of tires on my bike though. We all know aero >weight, but isn't aesthetics > aero and rolling resistance combined?

That explains the anxiety I had on my run this morning.  I thought I was hearing animals, but probably zombies

This is my situation at least a few times a month.  Actually we have 3 workout levels, 1, 2 and 3.  The workouts are all similar with group 1 being the hardest, tougher intervals and a few hundred yards more.  I can easily lead the group 2 lane but no way I can lead group 1.  Group 1 has guys that place nationally (top 10) at masters.

So when there's a lot of group 2 folks and only 2 or 3 in the group 1 lane I jump into the group 1 lane and go LAST.  Some sets are "touch and go" and it works my tail off.  On long sets with 300's etc. I get lapped.  I just stop and the end and let them go by, jump in behind them and finish the set etc.  Sometimes I wear fins to keep pace a little better.  When I do wear fins, I focus on body position, form etc. so they are not totally a crutch during that time.  My pull is pretty good so sometimes I'll pull a set or two.

There are times when I don't hit every set because I'm too gassed so I'll skip a 50 here and there.  But I still get a great workout.  I am lucky to swim with a great masters group so there's a lot of flexibility.

Also, sometimes the group 2 lane has people that are between group 1 and 2.  That's me and it sounds like that's the case with you.  So sometimes we do the group 1 workout but add a little here and there on the intervals.  For example, last tuesday group 1 interval for 4x200 was 3:00 but we decided to pump it up to 3:10 so we could have at least 10 sec rest.  We jokingly call those workouts "group 1.5"

When I'm in group 2 and those behind me are not so fast, I leave the interval alone and just push myself and try to hit a decent finish time, I just end up with more rest.  So if the 100's are on say 1:40, I try to come in under 1:25 etc.

Also, with regards to IM, I suck at butterfly so if those are 100 IM's I can do 25 yards of fly but if the IM's are 200's I simply do FS for the fly portion or I wear fins.

Hope this helps.

Throw a sprint in there.  Just for fun, count how many you pass on the run

I would do at least two other races in that 12 week block, with the first one at the beginning. Probably two sprints early and close together in that block (back to back weekends if i could) and probably a third two weekends before my Olympic. At that distance I have found that I hold fitness very well for three weeks and would aim to race both the sprint and Olympic very well. The only thing that makes a race a "b" race is whether you aim at it hard or if you train right through it. You race all of them hard. So the first two would be "B" races, but you might adjust your training just a bit to aim at the third sprint.

note this is what I would do, based on prior experience. I race short distance stuff much better if I race a little more often. And honestly if I had no HIMs on the calendar (cherish the thought) I would probably race 7~8 times between May and mid August. Probably too much, but fun.