Experior and Slornow's Winter Mentor Group-CLOSED (Page 13)

Michael-just for clarification Coke=Coca Cola?  Funny to read the paragraph without thinking about its relation to triathlon.  Would make someone think you were headed to a "bad place".      I can't help it.  My sister-in-law gave me a sign for Christmas that said "National Sarcasm Society....like we need your help"  It hurt a little but I can't help it.

The only time I drink real Coca Cola is after a long bike ride.  I have one in the cooler in my car for the drive home and it is amazing!

Randy   

This was my experience exactly.  I'd never tried it, but read lots of race reports about people using it during IM.  I was walking when I got to the aid station that had it and at that point thought, why not!?  I was literally running a minute later and just kept telling myself to get from one aid station to the next for more of it.  Problem was that some volunteers seemed to miss the memo that it needed to be flat.  But at that point I couldn't live without my fix so I'd grab water at the same time and mixed them together to try and flatten it a bit.  Either way, it kept me going for about 7-10 more km before the wheels totally fell off and my body realized I was trying to trick it with this magic elixsor.

Niel...being in your mentor group last season, I know how hard you trained for that HIM.

My honest opinion is that you're being too hard on yourself and pointing too much blame on your training.  I simply think that you just were having an off day...and things tend to snowball when you make adjustments to your goals too late.

That being said...I'll comment on the points you made.

I do ride overdistance, but more in the 3-4 hour range, 60-70 miles...WITH INTENSITY.  I don't see the point in riding 5-6 hours unless you can manage to throw in significant portions of those rides at HIM race effort.

Pacing on the bike is tricky.  A power meter should help...but if you're having an off day, it can be your ticket to the death march.  I took the approach (especially for a first timer) that the HIM bike should feel easy...and the race starts when you get off the bike.  My HIM bike split was far from impressive given my bike fitness, but I had a great run (for me anyway ).

Nutrition is individual.  I prefer gels and water.  Small sips of coke on the run.  I don't do well with more solid food while racing.  I'm a mouth breather...so chewing and breathing becomes a problem.

 ETA:  I should note that I did not use my PT during my HIM.  I raced off of HR despite doing all my training with power.  My race (Hawaii 70.3) did not allow disc covers, so I went with a 404 set instead of my PT training wheel set.  Just guessing...I think I did my HIM ride on the very low end of what would have been my power goals (180-200 watts).

Rene -- thanks for the reminder to be patient.  It helps.  Enjoy your last evening with your daughter.  She missed the horrible cold of this week; it is warming back up to the 60s for the weekend.  I sure hope I can ride!  (Patience, I know...)

Tomorrow I have a 6 hour long meeting with administration types who like to hear themselves talk.  Whooppee!  I'm going to get up early and swim hard and maybe I'll be so out of it by the start of the meeting that it'll wash over me like a dream.  I'm actually contemplating swimming twice tomorrow -- once to make me numb to the meeting, and once to wash it off when it's over.  I'm not sure I've ever swum twice in the same day before...

Have a great one everyone!

Hey folks-lots of good discussion today.  Made the 5.5-6 hour drive to Oxford, Mississippi.  Treadmill run in the morning and then a full day doing tour etc.  Will return home Saturday afternoon.

Looked at my bike training before my HIM.  I had done olympic distance AG Nationals in late Sept. and HIM was around Nov. 7 so I was pretty fit heading into last 4-5 weeks before HIM.  Workout 2 weeks out was 65 miles.  Consisted of warm up then two 45 minute intervals at approx. race pace with 5 minutes rest between intervals.  Remainder was approx 10% below race pace.  One week before the race was warm up then 10 miles @200 watts, 10 @ 210 and 10 @ 220 with 5 minutes easy between intervals.   Plan for race day was first 20 miles @200 watts, next 20 @ 210 and last 16 @ 220.  Ended up with avg. power of 197 and normalized power of 206.  A little less than planned but I ended up having a solid run.  Really mild weather on race day probably helped as well.

Randy

Good Evening Everyone,

Looking for some insight and advice.  Here is my dilemma.  I am training for my first Marathon on April 29th in Eugene, OR.  There is also a Olympic Distance Tri that includes the Northwest Club Championship Race which our club raced in last year.  I didn't race in this one this past year due to my HIM that was coming up three week later, but want to be involved in it this year.  The Olympic Distance Tri is scheduled for June 10th.  That might provide me with 4 solid weeks of training (bike and swim) depending on how my recovery goes.  I think the Bike and swim workouts could assist me in my recovery from the marathon and I'd forgo some running until about two weeks out. 

My concern is whether I can train for the marathon in Jan. Feb., March, April and still put in enough time on the bike and swim during this same time to be in race shape for an Oly. right after the Marathon.

Thoughts?

Thanks for you input.

I rested today. My son got hurt last night and it took my life energy away. Had none for anything but caring for him. Nothing too serious in the end, but waiting to find out what his problem was took all night and about killed me. Chest pains from a fall that seems to be nothing more than injured cartilage in the ribs, thank God. He now understands fully the importance of wearing your bike helmet.

Tomorrow husband has military stuff so just me and the kids. Hope to do a home workout with Jillian Michaels, then Sunday my Dad and Mom2 are watching the kids so I can do the Xterra course ride again. They are my biggest fans (next to husband and kids) and are wonderful about helping when I'm in training for anything. Hope it doesn't rain. I'd love to give it a go dry.

Have a great day.

Jason, I remember questioning your decision to not race with the PT last year, but it worked well for you.  Historically, I've been in the PT + HR camp, I don't think you can sensibly ignore HR and only go by wattage, though some will argue you should.  I know that for my race I didn't pay enough attention to HR during the ride, even though power numbers were in line (actually lower) than planned.  Someone made a good point that you can't expect to perform at the same pace/power as in training, if your HR is much higher than where you trained - even if the pace/power is the same. 

I'll add the caveat that you can certainly push your limits at the Sprint/Olympic distance and get away it with it to some degree because the total time is much shorter.  But HIM and IM, HR is still a very good indicator, because it says something about how your body is managing the effort level.

I think the bolded is very true.  With a sprint or olympic...if you push a little too hard on the bike...you may be 1-2 minutes faster on the bike...but your run may only suffer 2-5 minutes.  So the net effect is maybe nothing...or 2-3 minutes slower at most.

In a HIM, push a little too hard on the bike and you might result in a 5 minute faster bike split.  But your run could suffer by 10, 15, maybe even 30 minutes.  The net effect is magnified so much more.

Had a super insane group ride yesterday.  We were hammering intervals until I basically got dropped on the last 2 sets.  I was a little discouraged at first...but after looking at my power file, it was just that the two guys who were really drilling the pace were simply riding out of their minds.

The first two intervals...each of which last about 4.5 minutes...we were averaging about 315 watts...and when pulling up front, I was pushing closer to 380

A solid that is not super sweet, and that I enjoy, particulary on the bike are the honey stinger waffles.  160 calories, and just enough to make me feel that I ate something, without upsetting my stomach at all.  In fact, it often settles my stomach just a bit.  Have you ever tried them?

Jason/Neil-agree with your thoughts on pacing in shorter distance as compared to HIM and IM. Much greater risk in pushing a higher pace in long course as you must maintain through a much longer run.  You hear the term in cycling "burning a match" to describe a hard effort.....may be able to burn a few in shorter races and still hang on through the run.  Long course not so much.

Jason-killer ride. Always fun to be pleasantly surprised by good numbers after a ride. 

Bennet-I'm with you on the Honey Stinger waffles.  Over the last few months they have become my go to snack during cycling.

Beautiful day in Oxford, MS.

Randy

Lots of stuff to respond to.  (I just got back from a marathon meeting followed by a great swim and a pool run.)  I'll take them one by one instead of all at once.

Brian, I think you can do it, assuming you have time.  If I were in your shoes, I'd make the marathon training my priority, but find a way to insert 3 swims and 3 bikes per week.  The swims can and should be intense -- this intensity will not seriously compromise your marathon training until overall general fatigue becomes a factor (and in my experience, overall general fatigue starts to be a factor at around 80 miles per week running, which is more than you need to have a good marathon experience -- of course it will be different for different people).  I would keep 2 of the 3 bike rides on the lighter side -- an hour or so ride in zone 2, maybe edging to zone 3 if you feel good.  (Don't ride your bike in zone 1, though.  It has no point in this scenario.)  I'd try to find a place in the week for a third ride that can include some intensity -- so this should come at a time when some bike intensity will not interfere with your harder or longer runs.  The type of intensity is important -- in general, many short intervals are easier to recover from than are a few longer intervals.  So I'd focus on stuff like 30"/30" intervals and max out at maybe 4'/1' intervals.

After the marathon, you'll need at least a week before you een feel like running.  And even if you do feel like running, it's probably best not to.  Continue your swimming, eliminating any kick sets, and try to do some light biking (z1 is OK now!).  During the second week, continue swimming, and if you feel you can add some harder biking, do it, but only if you feel good.  You should try 2-3 very easy runs as well, unless you feel they are doing more damage than good.  The third week after the marathon, assuming you are beginning to feel somewhat OK, start adding race-specific intensity ont he bike -- things like 10'/2' intervals and 20'/2' (or 20'/5') intervals.  These should be at or near race intensity.  Also do some longer rides (30-40 miles is good).  The running can stay light, but by the 4th week post-marathon, you should be able to try some 6-8 mile runs at a decent pace.  I would also encourage you to do one or two rides in the vicinity of 50 miles as race day rehearsal -- it's a great way to practice nutrition.  Make the intensity close to race intensity.  However, do this only if you feel good and feel that you can recover well from it.  Do the first one 3 weeks out from the race, and if you feel recovered by the next weekend, do another 2 weeks out.

Keep up the good diet choices (or at least better choices -- hey that's progress, right?) !  As we said before, awareness is 90% of the battle for many of us.  I use the term 'battle' advisedly, because frankly we are surrounded by opportunities for bad choices all the time -- and those bad options are often made to appear very attractive.  It is often a struggle to avoid them.  We each will have different temptations, but they are there for many of us.  The cornucopia that we find in grocery stores and restaurants (and so many other places -- when did hardware stores start selling junk food, for example?) is in some ways a blessing, and in some ways a curse.

Oh my.  Glad he's OK.  I can't help it -- I worry constantly about my children, even though they are good kids and somewhat sensible (for kids).  I think back to all of the wounds my brother and I sustained growing up and marvel that my parents are still sane.

I look forward to hearing about the Xterra ride!

Michael...I just started noticing that too.  Stores like Home Depot and Best Buy selling junk food.  I guess it makes sense though.  If you're in the middle of a home improvement project, and needed to pick something up...chances are that you're a little hungry.  Or if you're going to best buy to purchase a blu ray or dvd movie...buying some candy or a soda may sound like a good idea.

It's amazing how food is related to almost anything we do...and the bad choices we can make so often.

Jason and Neil,

I agree completely.  For a sprint, and (depending on fitness) for an Oly you can just hammer and not think about it.  (In fact, I think it's better not to think about effort -- just push push push).  If anything, I'd say that most people don't push hard enough at those distances.  For HIM and IM, it tends to go the other way -- people push too hard on the bike, as a rule.  (I've certainly done so more than once.)

Here on BT, I have several times suggested that it is helpful to train using more than one measure of effort at a time.  (On the bike I go by RPE and Watts -- I used to go by RPE and HR until I got a PM -- on the swim and run I go by pace and RPE.)  I get shot down every time by people whose view I respect.  Their claim is that you should go by one measure only.  I see their point -- it certainly is simpler, and it is easy, of course, to pick the measure that most suits your desire at the moment (to go too hard, or to slack off, as the case may be).  But I think that if we are honest with ourselves (difficult, but not impossible), and if we take the time to learn how to use these various measures (RPE, Watts, pace, HR), it is a good idea to use two of them, as none of them is perfect.

Blanda-glad your son is OK.  VERY STRESSFUL for a parent to have an injured child.

Brian-which I could help on the marathon related advice but I'll defer to the experts as I've never done one and never intend to unless it is part of an IM.

Michael-great swim and pool run......impossible!  Can understand if you are comparing it to a long boring meeting but I have had very few "great" swims and believe that it is a true impossibility to have a great pool run.  You must have amazing mental toughness!

Randy

Michael,

Thank you for your comments this means alot and I trust your insights.  One of the things going for me in this Oly Tri is that the bike is pretty flat so early morning rides on my Mag trainer is doable and my wife is pretty supportive of me riding my trainer rather than riding outdoors so I can try and take advantage of this.  I'd be more concerned if the Bike Leg was hilly as I am not a climber. 

I swam two times a week for my HIM and was able to maintain pretty well and did what I expected (40 min.)  When it got warmer out, May into late June, I added in OWS for three times a week, but was only able to do that 4-5 times.  So I feel pretty confident if I was only swimming twice a week and in May get some OWS in prior to June 1Oth.

With the marathon my first goal is to complete it.  Goal two is to complete it.  Goal three is under 4:30.  Stretch is 4:29 or less.  I am going to run with the 4:30 pace group from CLIF BAR.  I am training for a 10 min pace.  I am hopeful to lose 23 lbs. an having this weight off should assist me a lot. 

Thanks again.