BT Development Mentor Program Archives » JohnnyKay and Fred Doucette's HIM/IM focused Mentor group-CLOSED Rss Feed  
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2011-04-21 9:10 AM
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2011-04-21 9:13 AM
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2011-04-21 10:01 AM
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Subject: RE: JohnnyKay and Fred Doucette's HIM/IM focused Mentor group-CLOSED
Fred Doucette - 2011-04-21 9:13 AM

Also, one thing I have really found that affects me is that I swim very early in the morning. If I had a really long or difficult run the previous day it affects my speed and form a lot. I think it's because my kick is weaker and it hurts my body position.

Dunno is anyone else finds the same?

I have this problem sometimes so when I do I use my kickboard in my warmup and try to do some sets where I will kick hard for 25 then easy for 25. Also stretching arms AND legs before starting main sets I feel really helps with my legs. And as a last resort if my legs just don't have it I will cheat with a pull buoy sometimes as well.

I like the golf idea as it incorporates trying to swi fast with long strokes as well. Naturally for me the faster I try to swim the more strokes it takes me, but this might be a good way to compensate the disparity.

2011-04-21 10:19 AM
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Subject: RE: JohnnyKay and Fred Doucette's HIM/IM focused Mentor group-CLOSED
Another short easy run this morning and then a short group ride after work.
2011-04-21 12:31 PM
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Subject: RE: JohnnyKay and Fred Doucette's HIM/IM focused Mentor group-CLOSED
Fred Doucette - 2011-04-21 10:13 AM

Also, one thing I have really found that affects me is that I swim very early in the morning. If I had a really long or difficult run the previous day it affects my speed and form a lot. I think it's because my kick is weaker and it hurts my body position.

Dunno is anyone else finds the same?



This happens to me - Long run or a very hard ride the night before will have a large effect on my swim the next morning/early afternoon. I have a very good kick (weaker pull) and it definitely affects my speed.

Edited by docswim24 2011-04-21 12:31 PM
2011-04-21 12:38 PM
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2011-04-21 1:22 PM
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Subject: RE: JohnnyKay and Fred Doucette's HIM/IM focused Mentor group-CLOSED

Just sharing a little progress thanks to you all.

Goal for my 1000 TT in the pool this morning was anything under 16:00 min.  My last TT I did 16:15 and had a chest cold so I couldn't flip turn. Today I was feeling good, coming off a rest day and I really wanted to put it all out there. This time my lungs, abs and legs were burning but I kept thinking of how disappointed I would be to finish and not reach my goal. Stopped my watch and I was so afraid to look at the time - 15:25!

Gotta give credit to the swim pace info we discussed last week. I reviewed those pages before I left for the pool. Thanks for answering our questions!

2011-04-21 1:23 PM
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Subject: RE: JohnnyKay and Fred Doucette's HIM/IM focused Mentor group-CLOSED
trigal38 - 2011-04-21 2:22 PM

Just sharing a little progress thanks to you all.

Goal for my 1000 TT in the pool this morning was anything under 16:00 min.  My last TT I did 16:15 and had a chest cold so I couldn't flip turn. Today I was feeling good, coming off a rest day and I really wanted to put it all out there. This time my lungs, abs and legs were burning but I kept thinking of how disappointed I would be to finish and not reach my goal. Stopped my watch and I was so afraid to look at the time - 15:25!

Gotta give credit to the swim pace info we discussed last week. I reviewed those pages before I left for the pool. Thanks for answering our questions!

That is awesome!!!  Congrats!

2011-04-21 1:28 PM
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2011-04-21 1:34 PM
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Subject: RE: JohnnyKay and Fred Doucette's HIM/IM focused Mentor group-CLOSED
Ha ha - of course now I'm wondering if I missed a lap . I'll never be satisfied.....
2011-04-21 1:36 PM
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2011-04-21 1:38 PM
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Edited by Fred Doucette 2011-04-21 1:39 PM
2011-04-21 1:39 PM
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Subject: RE: JohnnyKay and Fred Doucette's HIM/IM focused Mentor group-CLOSED
trigal38 - 2011-04-21 2:34 PM

Ha ha - of course now I'm wondering if I missed a lap . I'll never be satisfied.....


Great job!! That is a nice improvement. I always wonder if I missed a lap too.
2011-04-21 1:45 PM
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2011-04-21 1:48 PM
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Subject: RE: JohnnyKay and Fred Doucette's HIM/IM focused Mentor group-CLOSED
Fred Doucette - 2011-04-21 1:38 PM

Dan, my kick really, really sucks. I have a decent pull.

I find when the legs are fatigued that my body position changes in such a way that my hips probably drop. This definitely slows me down and makes me feel more awkward in the pool.

Truthfully the bad kick is ok for tri's as my wetsuit helps with body position enough that the poor kick has less of a negative impact.

My real issue is very inflexible ankles.



Inflexible ankles will kill your kick - hard to train but what I have found to work is working with zoomers. I have a few guys I help with their swim who saw major improvement with consistent kick and kick with zoomers work. They are/were ultra-runners and had inflexible ankles to start.

My issue is I am still in form more of a sprinter (swam the 100/200 free in college). I can move very fast when up on top of the water, but when I am doing a distance event I sit lower, my rotation is not great and my poor pull is more pronounced. I am probably one of the few former college swimmers that gets a huge advantage from the wetsuits. Thank goodness LP is wetsuit legal. With it I should place much higher than if the swim was not wetsuit legal.

Edited by docswim24 2011-04-21 1:49 PM
2011-04-21 1:49 PM
in reply to: #3459192

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Subject: RE: JohnnyKay and Fred Doucette's HIM/IM focused Mentor group-CLOSED
Fred Doucette - 2011-04-21 2:38 PM

I don't really check every 100 on my watch, but I sort of know all the splits for each 50 up to 500 yards and can work out the math pretty quick.

I do pretty much the same thing.  Although I developed a lap counting technique after screwing it up a number of times a few years ago.  There are 5 members in my family and each has a 4-letter name (I call my wife Kath all the time and, for swimming purposes, my daughter Sarah loses her 'h')  So each person is 100 and a 'family' is 500.  Works pretty well most of the time, but I can't count strokes and spell at the same time. 



2011-04-21 1:51 PM
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2011-04-21 1:52 PM
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Subject: RE: JohnnyKay and Fred Doucette's HIM/IM focused Mentor group-CLOSED
Fred Doucette - 2011-04-21 2:38 PM

BTW, a way to prevent a possible missed lap is to look at your watch every 100 yards. ie; for a 15:00 1,000 TT you should be hitting them on 1:30, 3:00, 4:30 etc, etc.

If you are averaging a few seconds over the 1:30 number than you know you have missed a lap if your overall number is lower than the 1:30 averaged over 1,000 yards.

I don't really check every 100 on my watch, but I sort of know all the splits for each 50 up to 500 yards and can work out the math pretty quick. BTW I am terrible at ACTUALLY counting laps, and only really do it based on what my 100 pace should be.



On my long swims I have a clock at the end of the pool I can see. So every 5th 50 I do a lap backstroke to see the clock to check my pace. Plus it helps me count and keeps my from doing too much straight freestyle (no shoulder injuries!).
2011-04-21 1:58 PM
in reply to: #3459236

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Subject: RE: JohnnyKay and Fred Doucette's HIM/IM focused Mentor group-CLOSED
Fred Doucette - 2011-04-21 2:51 PM

docswim24 - 2011-04-21 2:48 PM
Fred Doucette - 2011-04-21 1:38 PM

Dan, my kick really, really sucks. I have a decent pull.

I find when the legs are fatigued that my body position changes in such a way that my hips probably drop. This definitely slows me down and makes me feel more awkward in the pool.

Truthfully the bad kick is ok for tri's as my wetsuit helps with body position enough that the poor kick has less of a negative impact.

My real issue is very inflexible ankles.

Inflexible ankles will kill your kick - hard to train but what I have found to work is working with zoomers. I have a few guys I help with their swim who saw major improvement with consistent kick and kick with zoomers work. They are/were ultra-runners and had inflexible ankles to start. My issue is I am still in form more of a sprinter (swam the 100/200 free in college). I can move very fast when up on top of the water, but when I am doing a distance event I sit lower, my rotation is not great and my poor pull is more pronounced. I am probably one of the few former college swimmers that gets a huge advantage from the wetsuits. Thank goodness LP is wetsuit legal. With it I should place much higher than if the swim was not wetsuit legal.

Dan is there any concern with the zoomers affecting the run?

ie; inflexible ankles are a relatively normal and good thing for runners and would I be sacrificing some run ability for swim ability by getting better ankle flexibility?



I have never heard of more ankle flexibility affecting the run. Just because I have not heard of it does not mean they don't though.

I have a few friends who are superstar runners (ex-college runners) and very good swimmers as well and have never heard them having any issues running when they use zoomers or do a lot of kicking over an extended block of time.

The one caution I do have with zoomers is to not start out doing a lot of work with them. They need to be incorporated slowly as they can lead to cramping (calf cramps, foot cramps, etc). Build slowly with them.

2011-04-21 2:01 PM
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Subject: RE: JohnnyKay and Fred Doucette's HIM/IM focused Mentor group-CLOSED
Fred Doucette - 2011-04-21 2:51 PM

Dan is there any concern with the zoomers affecting the run?

ie; inflexible ankles are a relatively normal and good thing for runners and would I be sacrificing some run ability for swim ability by getting better ankle flexibility?

Dan's the swimming expert here, but I wouldn't imagine that the degree of flexibility you are looking to achieve to modestly imrpove your kick is going to be overly detrimental to your running.  It would seem to be a good trade-off if it helps make you a more efficient swimmer.  I don't think you are in danger of turning your feet/ankles into some Phelps-like flippers. 

2011-04-21 2:04 PM
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Subject: RE: JohnnyKay and Fred Doucette's HIM/IM focused Mentor group-CLOSED

docswim24 - 2011-04-21 2:58 PM

I have never heard of more ankle flexibility affecting the run.

Runners tend to develop less ankle flexibility.  The reason (or theory, at least) is that the reduced flexibilty helps promote running efficiency as more of the 'recoil' energy from landing and take-off goes into the forward propulsion (instead of losing some of the energy to 'floppy' ankles).  I am sure I butchered the actual physics, but it's something along those lines.



2011-04-21 2:26 PM
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Subject: RE: JohnnyKay and Fred Doucette's HIM/IM focused Mentor group-CLOSED
Fred Doucette - 2011-04-21 1:38 PM

BTW, a way to prevent a possible missed lap is to look at your watch every 100 yards. ie; for a 15:00 1,000 TT you should be hitting them on 1:30, 3:00, 4:30 etc, etc.

If you are averaging a few seconds over the 1:30 number than you know you have missed a lap if your overall number is lower than the 1:30 averaged over 1,000 yards.

I don't really check every 100 on my watch, but I sort of know all the splits for each 50 up to 500 yards and can work out the math pretty quick. BTW I am terrible at ACTUALLY counting laps, and only really do it based on what my 100 pace should be.

That was my plan exactly. This was the first time I have worn a watch to the pool. I usually just wing it and look at the pace clock when I'm finished. It turned out my goggles were way too foggy and I didn't want to stop my stroke trying to stare at my watch so I never saw my time until the end anyway.

Oh well, at least I know for sure that I gave it my very best effort.

And I have the opposite problem as you. I've been told by physical therapists that my joints are too flexible!

2011-04-21 2:33 PM
in reply to: #3435035

Subject: RE: JohnnyKay and Fred Doucette's HIM/IM focused Mentor group-CLOSED

My kick also sucks really bad, and probably due to inflexible ankles as well.  I use zip fins for kicking drills, and when I do use them, I can keep up with the other good kickers in my masters class...even if they are using fins too.  But once I take mine off...I'm pretty much dead last in kick drills.  If we're using kick boards and can't take a stroke every 8-10 kicks...I pretty much won't move at all while kicking.

2011-04-21 3:43 PM
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Subject: RE: JohnnyKay and Fred Doucette's HIM/IM focused Mentor group-CLOSED
JohnnyKay - 2011-04-21 3:04 PM

docswim24 - 2011-04-21 2:58 PM

I have never heard of more ankle flexibility affecting the run.

Runners tend to develop less ankle flexibility.  The reason (or theory, at least) is that the reduced flexibilty helps promote running efficiency as more of the 'recoil' energy from landing and take-off goes into the forward propulsion (instead of losing some of the energy to 'floppy' ankles).  I am sure I butchered the actual physics, but it's something along those lines.



Interesting - thanks for sharing.
2011-04-21 7:02 PM
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Subject: RE: JohnnyKay and Fred Doucette's HIM/IM focused Mentor group-CLOSED
docswim24 - 2011-04-21 2:43 PM

JohnnyKay - 2011-04-21 3:04 PM

docswim24 - 2011-04-21 2:58 PM

I have never heard of more ankle flexibility affecting the run.

Runners tend to develop less ankle flexibility.  The reason (or theory, at least) is that the reduced flexibilty helps promote running efficiency as more of the 'recoil' energy from landing and take-off goes into the forward propulsion (instead of losing some of the energy to 'floppy' ankles).  I am sure I butchered the actual physics, but it's something along those lines.



Interesting - thanks for sharing.


Yeah, that applies to our legs as well. That's why stretching post run is good but too much flexibility, like a gymnast, is bad.
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