SBR Utopia - OPEN (Page 143)

Here's a picture from our group ride on Saturday, we had about 75 riders out. I'm in the Nytro kits with white helmet, up near the front.

Very good stuff Marc and others that have offered their perspective on this topic - I find it to be very interesting and enlightening. So, after reading your description Marc it may just be words - because as you have described your run training it sounds very similar to my own - I just wish it made me as fast as you!

I always assumed that when someone said they train by pace they meant that for a certain kind of conditioning they would run at, say a 7:30 pace for x amount of time no matter what, but from the way you describe it you actually run at a particular effort, and adjust/evaluate that pace according to surface, terrain, temperature, etc in order to maintain that particular effort - is that right? So while I think of myself training by HR, I suppose I really go more by RPE and adjust my pace accordingly to maintain the prescribed effort. I do check my HR on occasion just to see if things are out of whack with my perceived effort. As I think of it my HR zones are also named by particular "efforts": Recovery, Base, Endurance, Steady State, Tempo, etc. and overlap each other quite a bit. While I do have a pretty good sense of the "pace" I am running at any given time, that can vary wildly at a similar effort depending on the factors listed above.

I think what is most important is that what we are really talking about is how we use both measures of "Input" (effort, with heart rate being an admittedly rough proxy) and "Output" (power, pace, etc) together to understand both our training load and its effectiveness. What is interesting is that where environmental variables can be tightly controlled, output can be used effectively as a primary training metric. So in pool swimming, track cycling, track running, etc pace is really king. When the external variables are significantly compounded (say road cycling for instance) training by output might be highly suspect - not many would advocate a road cyclist train by speed as a primary metric. The cool thing is that power meters have changed that a great deal in that they have taken two output variables (cadence and force) and given us a pure form of output uncoupled from external environmental forces. However for me it is weird to think of using this single metric as a de facto tool for training, it is still the relationship of Input (effort) to Output (power) that matters. Since running lacks such a pure measure of output like power, it does make since to fall back to pace as the next best thing, as kludge as it may be due to the variability of external forces. In the end maybe this is all a good argument for RPE as primary metric for most of us to aspire, with all the other stuff as secondary and tertiary data.

I sure do love my powermeter in the first hour or so of an Ironman bike though....

And for experienced runners that pacing strategy generally holds through on open road races up to 10k as well (with a proper warm up, of course). As endurance athletes we have been so conditioned to believe that running a negative split is always a "good thing" to the point where we are afraid to run a fade/middle float strategy even though it will most likely gives us a faster finishing time.

Some things go without saying, Sally!

Is this an example of that? I see it as an example of racing, trying to break the other guys since they care about placing, not finish time. Time trialing would be the fastest finish time.

Something I am interested in is why the better strategy in a duathlon seems to be ending up with run 1 being faster than run 2, as opposed to them being fairly even. Or would it be?

Very nice job Kate - that looks a little more in line with your HIM bike split, but I'll betcha your FTP is still higher than that. If I understand the graph correctly your cadence looks low at least from my experience anyway. I know "natural" cadence can be variable from person to person, but your HR and power look like they became really spiky after the first five minutes which to my untrained eye makes me think you might be pushing too big of a gear for the test and having to recover occasionally? Remember that there are two ways you can generate more power: more force to the pedals or higher RPMs - and obviously those two are not mutually exclusive. The fun part of the FTP "game" (if there is anything fun about it at all) is figuring out your sweet spot between the two - it took me a while to find it, but it has made certain bits of my road riding much better/faster without increasing fitness at all.

here's an example

http://www.trainingpeaks.com/av/QEDWR7ABZ7ISD45NFQ3PBGWSOA

I went for a 'long' run yesterday

It was supposed to be 45 min ez, then 25 min tempo, which I had decided to do by HR. You can see the clear differences in effort.

I started the tempo portion with my HR at a target 160. It didn't feel tempo,  I tried to keep my HR flat, but  it would creep and creep. I did not look at pace, but ended up with an even pace.

If I would have kept my HR flat, my pace would have decreased

During the ez portion, my pace is going down, but my HR is creeping up.I had to force myself to keep my HR down top of Z1.

On the cool down, I went mostly by RPE and my HR started to increase with pace.

I guess I just I am more of a pace kind of person

Hi SBR piglets! (yes, you.) Just ducking my head in here for a sec--I still read most of it but don't always have time to post.

I'm working through Sheila T's Swim Speed Workouts--I'm very lucky to have kept her as a mentor (she likes me, God knows why) and be able to get personal feedback from time to time. They are a 16-week progression designed to get you to, duh, swim faster .

They are brutal, but very doable, and ideal for me without training groups to push me. I did think I was seeing things when I realized today's workout had a full 1K (of 4K) of fly, but she does say you can substitute other strokes. (Translation: HTFU and fly). She also says it's not so bad because some of it's kicking and drills, but SHE LIES!!! (I also sub in 200 IM kick for some of her time-based kick drills since my current training pool has no deep end).

Four workouts in and I can already feel significant differences in form and strength (in the inverse form of being pretty sore in the lats, mostly, which is exactly how it should be). I was dubious about a lot of it starting out, but am now starting to rave about it (in anger or admiration, not sure, probably both).

My one criticism/caveat is to be very, very cautious about the breath-control (since she does prescribe a specific # of breaths, although not much yardage is dedicated to these)--that's a pet peeve of mine. However, she does point out to remain calm and controlled (to just do a portion of the length breathing that way if need be), and these are meant to be easy repeats with lots of rest.

Just my .02 on that so far.

looks like Salty is speeding up a bit.  right now they have her at a 3:05 finish but if she keeps speeding up that should drop nicely

 ugh, formatting fail.  First 5k was a 7:12 min/mile but the 10k mark was 6:56 min/mile

I see 1:33:17 at the Half.

I think this is simply a case of fresh legs at the start of the race, and all your bound up energy as opposed to a proper pacing plan.  Since most dualthlons have the longer run second, I would "think" proper pacing would have you be more conservative on the first run.

By the way, Neil, I was specifically thinking of you regarding my Swim Speed Workouts post last page.

Marc,

I'm not following. When I look at the data, I would have expected your pace to decrease as you kept your HR steady because of the elevation increase. By keeping an even pace, you were actually putting out an even harder effort that if you'd been running a flat section. Or am I missing something?

 ETA - screwed up the formatting on my original post.

And literally so, as in, by pace ... by step ... she runs naked, too!

Thanks Yanti!  I've actually been using the Swim Workouts in a binder by Gale Bernhardt, but have been wondering how Sheila's book compares to the one I'm using.  The one comment I'll make about the Bernhardt book, is that there are specific sets where they just say 300FR or 200Pull, but don't give a pace target - while others are very specific, or at least general.  On those with no direction I'm completely lost as to how fast/slow to swim.

I had my first race of the year (first race since my accident) yesterday....race report is here: http://www.beginnertriathlete.com/discussion/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=484547&posts=1#M4700869 

Quick recap: swim went well, bike went well, run volume is severely lacking so I didn't treat the run leg as a race but rather as a long training run.  Somehow managed to land myself on the podium (not a very competitive race, but I'll take podium spots where I can get them!).

I'm definitely feeling sore today, and my knee isn't thrilled with me....I have scheduled an appointment with a new doctor, so maybe he'll be able to figure something out!

That is pretty good stuff, Yanti - especially as rumor has it you are pretty good swimmer already - gives the rest of us mortals some hope when we read that fast folks can still learn a thing or two!

My coach has me do breath control drills fairly regularly, but not for the supposed hypoxic effect, which I too think is a bunch of bunk. Otherwise I suppose I would bike and run while holding my breath as well. Instead it has actually just helped me to learn to simply breath whenever I need air - a crazy concept, I know! So sometimes it is every stroke cycle, and sometimes it is bilateral, and most recently I have found myself breathing every 4 strokes when swimming at a "steady" pace  - when I realized I was doing that a couple of weeks ago I have payed some attention and now try and remind myself to switch to my off side on occasion.

Ha! but technically that is really by effort, not pace.... 

I apologize if this was answered in the 175 pages I missed.  

Can someone please tell me what AP, NP and VI are?  I am new to cycling as a sport...and training to get faster, specifically for triathlon.. reaching max pace on the bike but still having the legs for the run (IM distance). 

Also - how does one test their "Threshold" and how is this used to train for your best race possible? (in layman's terms please).  

Lastly - is there an affordable way to get a power meter for a bike?  I don't have a huge budget (as in none) for all the gadgets I want.  I will probably be purchasing a Garmin 910 XT in the near future, and really want to use a power meter / heart rate training to reach my potential.  

Thanks in advance.  

Yeah.  5 mile drive is uphill-ish but it's the run back up Vassault at the end that is the leg grinder.

Edit: in any case it's an old race, been around a long time and it draws a lot of people.  It's fun.

Actually I was thinking about the 1K of fly which I know you just cannot wait to do

But yeah--Sheila's workouts are very specific, including how to set your pace, what your effort level should be, exactly what the workout is focusing on and how it fits into the progression, videos of (a range of) drills on her website, etc. (GREAT way to sneak in some extra rest while reading the instructions poolside ... ha ha ha ... oh wait, she also includes how much rest to take in between sets. RATS)

Neil, I use that book too for non-Masters swims. Have to look at the workout in particular to see about the more specific paces in parts, but generally I'll try to go at as high of an effort as I can handle throughout the workout. Typically something like moderately hard to threshold, but sometimes I have to back down to moderate if I'm tired going in. I also tend to shorten up the rest as they give too much on many of the main sets. Otherwise many things are halfway between sprint sets and masters main sets.

I just checked the name, and Swim Workouts In A Binder is what I have. Gale was in on one called Swim Workouts For Triathletes. They look similar, but maybe not quite the same. Anyway, that's how I'd approach the pacing issue there as well.