Gray Guys/Girls Maturing Triathlete - Always OPEN (Page 15)

Hey everyone!

Here's the updated Weight-Loss/Workout numbers.

We're beginning to amass an impressive total group weight loss!  Keep it up!

An 'FYI' Rob (Turner100) reported two-weeks this week.

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Hey Rob,

Sorry for the delay in responding to this.  Simply stated, the bolded is one of my "hot buttons."  It drives my absolutely crazy when I hear someone make those statements and I hear them quite regularly.   I thought it best to take a bit of time so I didn't fire off a response that could have easily been taken the wrong way (I sometimes lack a filter between my brain and my mouth ).

As you may or may not know, my first athletic language was swimming.  However, what I am about to say is not being said as a swimmer, rather it's being said from under my coach's hat.  Although admittedly, I see triathlon through the prism of a swimming background.

I saw that Steve responded.  He addressed the weight-loss and I have nothing specific to that to add.  I would however, like to expand on Steve's thoughts regarding the swim.  Steve mentioned "coming out of the water gassed," and "lactic acid build-up."  I want to get a bit more in-depth into what's going on there and what that means for your race.

For the typical age-group triathlete - defined as someone not seeking to stand on top of the overall podium or qualify for Kona - the goal of the swim is to remain aerobic in the water.  As we look at why that is so, I'd like to look at the importance of the swim without reference to the percentage of time the swim takes relative to the other disciplines. 

The swim, impacts the swim, bike and run.  The bike impacts the bike and run.  While the run only impacts the run. 

When you consider that statement it becomes clear the swim impacts the entire race.  While it's true you can't "win" a triathlon in the water, you can easily lose it there.  Your swim can sabotage your entire day.

You mentioned back in your original introduction that you are using a variation of Jeff Galloway's Run/Walk program and you are currently running with a HR target around 150 bpm. First - I encourage every athlete I work with to use a run/walk strategy during the run of their long course triathlon (70.3 or 140.6).  It carried Sebastian Kienle to his Ironman World Championship and it's a viable strategy for any age-group triathlete - so kudos for adopting that strategy!  I want to look at your HR target.  That target has you training within zone 2 - working to develop the aerobic energy pathway.  Zone 2 is also where your race day run effort is going to be.  Similarly, your bike race day effort will also be zone 2 with a slightly lower HR - maybe 135-140, possibly a bit lower.

Swimming is highly technical.  Swimming with improper technique will quickly lead to becoming anaerobic in the water.  As you become anaerobic, technique breaks down even further.  Becoming anaerobic creates metabolic by-products - specifically lactate and lactic acid.  However, a well-trained athlete, once their heart rate recovers below threshold, can quickly process and remove lactate and lactic acid accumulation - so lactic acid, in and of itself, isn't the concern.  The problem is the elevated heart rate.

You (metaphorically) get in the water on race day and become anaerobic forcing your heart rate into zone 5, maybe high zone 5.  When you come out of the water your heart rate has climbed to 160?  170?  Maybe higher if you are deeply anaerobic.  The only way to quickly get your HR back down is to rest.  But you aren't going to rest, you're going to get on the bike and ride - with a heart rate that is 30-40 bpm higher than your Z2 target HR.  AND IT WON'T FULLY RECOVER TO YOUR TARGET HR.  Meaning your body isn't going to efficiently clear lactate and lactic acid accumulation.  Of greater concern,  you are going to be using more energy than you would at a lower heart rate.  Reducing your glycogen stores can have serious consequences later in the day - consequences that can easily force a DNF.

Looking at you more specifically, you mention you're coming out of the water in 33-37 minutes for a HIM.  That's ~ 1:34-1:45/100y.  At that pace, it's safe to say your technique is a limiter.  You aren't going to overcome that limiter by training 1.0-1.2 hours per week in the water which is what 10% works out to.

You asked "how much swimming do you really need to do?"  I recommend a build to a level equal to 1.5-2.0 times the race distance a minimum of three times per week.  At your pace, for a HIM, that's roughly an hour long workout three times a week.  Carrying that thought just a bit further, I like to see overall training volume at a 25%:50%:25% swim:bike:run ratio.  At 12-hours per week that works out to 3:6:3.  Kinda cool how that's precisely the swim volume I suggest.

I advocate year round strength and core work.  During the season however, as your S/B/R time increases, I recommend 2-3 20-minute strength/core sessions per week in addition to your S/B/R schedule.  Strength/core work is another topic that we can talk about separately if you like.

Pacing yourself in open water is a direct result of proper swim training.  You should know your swim threshold pace - your pace at threshold.  Once you know that pace, your workouts are built around that pace.  You will also precisely know the pace you should swim your race.  Over time, you develop an internal speedometer that will accurately guide your race day efforts and keep you aerobic.  Absent that speedometer, it's highly likely you will be anaerobic in the water on race day.

Hope that answers the questions.

Hey Steve,

As you know, we start losing muscle mass and strength at about age 30.  Slowly at first and becoming more rapid as we mature.  This study - https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3940510/ - suggests ~ a 1.5% decline year over year beyond age 50.  Not great news to hear but at least it gives you some way to quantify and approximate what's attributable to aerobic engine decline and strength decline.

There's also a significant number of studies out there that suggest you can not only slow but actually reverse the decline with targeted strength work.

There's hope for us older folks!

Without seeing workout and race data, it's hard to say with certainty but my suspicion is you are over-cooking the bike - going to hard on the bike.  Weight would possibly play some role in you not finishing strong but I suspect that isn't the primary factor.  It starts by becoming anaerobic in the water.  That carries over to the bike and the natural tendency on the bike is to go too hard - that's problematic if your HR is already above target.

There's a saying - you can't have a good run without a good bike.

Or, stated another way, if your run is bad, your bike was bad.

It's very easy to look at triathlon as swim and bike and run.  However, that isn't triathlon.  Triathlon is swimbikerun.  It's one event.  I actually believe it goes deeper than that but I don't want to cloud the issue at this point.  To be successful at the finish line requires you (again metaphorically) to have a race strategy that recognizes triathlon is a single event rather than three separate events strung together.

I'm looking forward to having to make a trip to Hawaii at some point so beginning to think about the travel.

Have you ever used a service like this - http://www.tribiketransport.com

Tribike quotes $700 to transport a bike from Washington to Hawaii.  (They don't have the Hawaii 70.3 so used Kona for discussion sake).

I'm curious how that compares to your actual cost - More?  Less?  Significantly more?  Bear in mind I don't have a bike bag/case so that will be a necessary expense.

My first year of Triathon my budget for the sport was $1000.  Paying $700 to transport your bike to one race seems crazy to me.  When I did Ironman 70.3 St. George two years ago we found air fare into Las Vegas under $500 for the whole family. Then we started looking at how I was going to get my bike to the race. We looked at shipping companies. Bike cases for the airlines, etc. and my stress leave started to go go through the roof. So... we canceled the airline tickets put the bike rack on the back of the car and drove across 5 states to get to the race. I told my family we would plan another trip where we could fly when I wasn’t taking a bike.  Last year we flew to my Ragnar cape cod race. It was stress free. 

No worries.  I've grown up and gotten to where "silly swim ideas" don't set me off, well not so much as they use to.  

If memory serves, you're on a 30-week plan.  Most plans that long start with a base phase so the volume would be lower and more balanced.  The 25:50:25 ratio become more pertinent when you get into the build phase.

"How do you respond with someone else's comments included."  I think you are asking how you include a quote from the post you are replying too.  Click "quote" at the bottom of their post and that will open the new post window with the post you are replying to quoted at the top of the window.   Then just type your new post as you normally would.

The rising stress level has always been my motivation for driving.  The cost has never really been the primary concern, indeed the cost is probably significantly more driving when you factor in a hotel for 2-3 nights each way given my wife's idea of "roughing it" is staying at the Marriott because the Hilton is closed (my wife also has trouble with more than 8-10 hours a day driving which makes for at least three days across the country).  I'm just much more comfortable when I can see my bike, touch my bike, and have control over what's happening to my bike.

All of that said, it's pretty difficult to drive to Hawaii so I need to find an alternative.

Mitzi,

First of all, life happens.  It happens to ALL of us.  Trust the base work you have done to date.  The weeks you missed were early on so they aren't going to have near the impact as they would if they were 3 weeks before the race.

Next, NO, don't try to "make-up" the workouts.  Once you miss a workout - regardless of the reason - it is missed.  Forget about it and move on the the next workout on your schedule.  Whenever you have a coach or a pre-written plan, a good deal of time has gone into balancing the workouts.  What I mean is the application of training stress and recovery are balanced in such a way as to achieve what's called "super-compensation."  That's the fancy term for your body getting stronger and faster.  If you were to start adding an extra workout in or significantly change the workouts in the plan, you would be altering the stress/recovery balance and likely lessen or remove entirely the super-compensation adaptation you are working for.

My suggestion, given you've been down for two weeks, is to go back to the first week. Coming off of illness your fitness has declined a bit.  If you try to jump in "where you should be" you will likely struggle and become frustrated.  After you get through that first week, skip to the third week.  The fourth week is probably a recovery week.  I'd take the recovery week.  By then you should have your fitness back to where you can do some more intense workouts.  Coming out of the recovery week, re-evaluate where you're at, how your're feeling, and where you are in the plan vs. where you "should" be in the plan.  You have a LONG way's to go so don't panic.  Trust the training you are doing and stay the course.  (If your plan isn't how I outlined above, let me know and I can alter what you might do).

You mentioned, "I wanted to be able to do the run without stopping."  Are you talking about the race?  Are you talking about training?  In both cases, there is absolutely no shame using a run/walk strategy.  I'm going to play my broken record again.  Sebastian Kienle won the Ironman World Championship using a run/walk strategy.  There is absolutely NOTHING wrong with walking during the run, especially if it is planned.

Let me say one final thing to put your mind at ease about being sick and missing a few workouts.  I'm going to say something that is going to make you think I've "gone off the deep end."  Long course triathlon is NOT about your fitness level.  Long course triathlon is about forming a plan to take advantage of whatever level of fitness you bring on race day.  I absolutely guarantee you, as surely as the sun will come up in the morning, that on race day, you will see some VERY fit athletes walking or sitting at the side of the road because they couldn't execute a race plan.  DON'T obsess over a couple of missed workouts.

Well yesterday did not go as planned.  I had a run test (HR threshold) on the schedule and was going to do it at the park after work.  It was beautiful all day - upper 60's, sunny, really nice - until about 4pm.  Then the clouds moved in, it got windy, and the temps dropped a bit.  Still mid-60's, just felt a little cooler because of the wind.  But no rain at least, so the run test was still on.  Got to the park, got changed and ready to start the test.  HRM wouldn't work .  Hard to do a HR threshold test if you can't record HR.  Okay, Plan B - move the test to Friday afternoon and just get some miles in today.  Figured I'd do my normal 3 miles that I run at this park all the time.  2 minutes into the warm-up my right calf decides it needs to cramp up.  WTH!!  Someone does not want me to run today .  I managed to work through that but could tell the run was not going to go well.  By the time I got to the end of mile 1, I was walking and the wind had picked up quite a bit.  Not enough to blow me off the path, but enough to be really annoying.  (Glad I decided to go without the hat - I would have been chasing it all over the place, lol).  Okay, plan C - just finish the run any way I can.  Which is what I did, although I did cut it a little short.  It just wasn't my day.  I'll put it behind me and move on.  

On a good note - I got my butt out of bed this morning and went to the pool.  Had a good workout and had the pool to myself for most of the time, so really glad I went.  

Janet

Janet - Good job on toughing out your run and salvaging the day.  Your determination is inspiring.

Mitzi - Hope you're feeling better and easing back into your routine.  Don't "throw in the towel", just pause a moment and then get back at it.  You'll be fine come race day and if not you'll just do your best and have fun.  Plus, you should keep at the weight loss challenge and use it as a tool to motivate yourself even more than you already are.

All - I had a short swim today.  Forgot my Garmin at home so it really threw me off of my swim.  I felt lost without the watch.  Hard to believe I could become so reliant on a "watch".  I did swim but not as effectively as I should have.

Then, in the afternoon, I went for an 8km run into a strong south wind but it sure was fun when I turned north and the strong headwind became a tail wind and it felt neat feeling the push.  I did note however that my average and max heart rate were higher than is typical for me even though I was only running a normal Zone 2 pace and not pushing to run faster.  Normally I'd settle into about 134 bpm average HR but today I averaged 141 bpm.  Once I stopped running my HR calmed down quickly and I felt good about the run.

Janet,

Some days you're the bug; some days you're the windshield.  It happens.

Good job getting the run in even with all the obstacles.  Then you got a swim in the next morning.  Way to go!

Originally posted by lutzman

Originally posted by k9car363

Originally posted by BlueBoy26

My first year of Triathon my budget for the sport was $1000.  Paying $700 to transport your bike to one race seems crazy to me. 

I'm just much more comfortable when I can see my bike, touch my bike, and have control over what's happening to my bike.

All of that said, it's pretty difficult to drive to Hawaii so I need to find an alternative.

 

I'm fairly confident you probably have the skills to swim to Hawaii. Pulling your bike along behind you might be the dealbreaker.

Nah.  The dealbreaker is the salt.  That'd pretty well mess up the drive-train.  

Mitzi,

I agree with George.  Don't throw in the towel because you had a minor set-back.  Athletic excellence is 90% mental and 10% physical  The 90% mental begins with a positive mental focus and the weight loss challenge gives you something on which you can have a positive mental focus.

My vote is continue on with the weight-loss challenge.

Believe me, I gave serious consideration to this option.  And previously I probably would have done just that.  But over the winter I participated in a mental training program and one of the things I took away from it was working around a problem instead of just letting it stop me in my tracks.  When you come to a boulder in the road, you can turn around and go back, or you can find a different route to take - I chose to take a different route (several times ) to make it to the finish.  

Janet