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2009-12-16 9:21 AM
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Subject: RE: Winter Cycling Plan Official Thread
Jorge

Could you help me out with W7Q3 for HR/RPE?  The workout is stated in terms of Power.

Thanks



JorgeM - 2009-12-12 5:29 PM

Ok folks, week #7 is up: http://jorgepbmcoaching.blogspot.com/

We are shifting gears; after completing round no. 2 of testing we now begin focusing on improving our 20 min power. We'll still do some VO2 max sessions this week plus tempo and long ride and in coming weeks will switch more onto our power threshold why should we work in improving our 20 min power? Well I was going to work on a detailed post for my blog but I found this article online which nicely explains the reasoning and science behind it. It also points out why working on what many athletes/coaches refer to 'base' training might be an ineffective way to train especially for those of us with limited training time.

Anyway, also pay attention to the notes and have fun!



2009-12-16 1:13 PM
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Subject: RE: Winter Cycling Plan Official Thread
JorgeM - 2009-12-16 7:11 AM

it is normal to see a big increase in your 5MP because we have been working on that aspect 1st on the 1st 6 weeks of the program. We just moved into maximizing 20MP and then will move to improve 60 min power (aka FTP)



Thanks Jorge,

What is the big difference in the types of workouts to improve 5MP vs 20MP vs 60MP ? I can look at the workouts and see they are different, but what is theory behind improving the endurance ?



2009-12-16 1:28 PM
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2009-12-16 2:02 PM
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Subject: RE: Winter Cycling Plan Official Thread
trotpntbll - 2009-12-16 1:28 PM

Hum, now if only my 20' really was at 331W


That would be nice, even for a big guy like me. At 6' 4", 200 lbs, a 20MP of 322 isn't terribly impressive. FTP of 304 sounds great, but it's a ratio of only about 3.37 w/kg . . . decidedly middle of the pack for a Cat 4 road racer. What bothers me is that I should be a better sprinter considering my 5 MP. Maybe I'm just a big wuss.
2009-12-16 2:06 PM
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2009-12-16 3:09 PM
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Subject: RE: Winter Cycling Plan Official Thread
Hi Jorge. Question for you. I am really enjoying this program and since getting stronger on the bike is my main goal for the winter it is perfect. However, thinking about the coming months, I have a half marathon in March and a HIM in May (my A-race, but I want to do well at the half marry as well). I am noticing quite a bit of fatigue in my legs the day after I do these sessions. Those are usually the days when I run, but the runs are pretty crappy because of the tired legs. Any suggestions there? I swim after the trainer sessions sometimes and that works fine (different muscle groups) but the running is hard. My official training plan for the HIM (and half marry) starts mid-January and I will keep doing your program when it fits into that program but I want to also start building on the runs (can I have it ALL!? haha). For now though, what would you recommend? Just run on the tired legs and use it as active recovery/good triathlon training? Figure that as I get fitter on the bike, I won't be fatigued the next day (but then again, this program keeps challenging us, so I don't think that will happen soon)? Take it a little easier on the bike? Its tricky because of the conflicting goals of working intensively on the bike but then having to get ready for a half marry. Your/others thoughts? I really don't want to stop the indoor cycling program because it is awesome and should benefit the HIM training immensely.


2009-12-16 3:26 PM
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Subject: RE: Winter Cycling Plan Official Thread
louiskie - 2009-12-15 10:09 PM Hi Jorge. Question for you. I am really enjoying this program and since getting stronger on the bike is my main goal for the winter it is perfect. However, thinking about the coming months, I have a half marathon in March and a HIM in May (my A-race, but I want to do well at the half marry as well). I am noticing quite a bit of fatigue in my legs the day after I do these sessions. Those are usually the days when I run, but the runs are pretty crappy because of the tired legs. Any suggestions there? I swim after the trainer sessions sometimes and that works fine (different muscle groups) but the running is hard. My official training plan for the HIM (and half marry) starts mid-January and I will keep doing your program when it fits into that program but I want to also start building on the runs (can I have it ALL!? haha). For now though, what would you recommend? Just run on the tired legs and use it as active recovery/good triathlon training? Figure that as I get fitter on the bike, I won't be fatigued the next day (but then again, this program keeps challenging us, so I don't think that will happen soon)? Take it a little easier on the bike? Its tricky because of the conflicting goals of working intensively on the bike but then having to get ready for a half marry. Your/others thoughts? I really don't want to stop the indoor cycling program because it is awesome and should benefit the HIM training immensely.


Actually I see my running improving. You have to plan better the week trying to put the intense running sessions away from the bike. It works great for me and I don't know if I have to think that my running improvements are due to this cycling plan.
2009-12-16 11:04 PM
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Subject: RE: Winter Cycling Plan Official Thread
I read somewhere that cycling helps your running, but not vice versa. 
2009-12-17 5:46 AM
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Subject: RE: Winter Cycling Plan Official Thread
skarl - 2009-12-16 11:04 PM

I read somewhere that cycling helps your running, but not vice versa. 


My n=1 experience is that they help each other. I tend to lose more weight running than cycling, and weight loss (assuming you don't lose muscle mass, too) can only help with cycling.
2009-12-17 7:47 AM
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2009-12-17 8:20 AM
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Subject: RE: Winter Cycling Plan Official Thread
skarl - 2009-12-16 6:04 AM I read somewhere that cycling helps your running, but not vice versa. 


actually cycling is quite lower in terms of HR efforts. you don't train your heart as you do with running. I think I am gaining something from muscular point of view. when I do running races now, I see going much better over the others. I pass tens of competitors there!


2009-12-17 8:36 AM
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Subject: RE: Winter Cycling Plan Official Thread
Plissken74 - 2009-12-17 9:20 AM
skarl - 2009-12-16 6:04 AM I read somewhere that cycling helps your running, but not vice versa. 


actually cycling is quite lower in terms of HR efforts. you don't train your heart as you do with running. I think I am gaining something from muscular point of view. when I do running races now, I see going much better over the others. I pass tens of competitors there!


I think my problem is that I usually do the trainer sessions at night, finishing around 9pm, and then run at lunch the next day, so not that much recovery time. I ran last night instead and felt much better, despite the taco salad for dinner! :-) I think these trainer sessions are hard enough that I need more than 14 hrs recovery to not be running on dead legs.
2009-12-17 9:33 AM
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Subject: RE: Winter Cycling Plan Official Thread
@ marcag:
What is the big difference in the types of workouts to improve 5MP vs 20MP vs 60MP ?
>>> basically the duration of the set/recovery and the intensity. IOW for 5MP sets usually are between 1-5' in duration, recovery time is the same duration as main set and intensity is @ 115-120% of FTP. 20MP are between 4-10' in duration, recovery time is around 30-50% of the main set and intensity is @ 105-110% FTP. 60MP are between 10-25' in duration. recovery time is around 10% of main set and intensity is @95-105% of FTP

I can look at the workouts and see they are different, but what is theory behind improving the endurance ?
>>> 

5MP mainly targets adaptations to improve your VO2 max (aerobic capacity), the higher the amount of oxygen you can use in your working muscles the better. 20MP mainly targets improving mitochondrial density/activity and oxygen delivery and 60MP targets adaptations to improve your maximum lactate steady state which among other things increases lactate acid clearance, increase glycogen storage.

What all 3 help improve endurance? Well, I am sure you all have heard the argument (or myth) that base training allows you to improve fat oxidation (rely more on fat for fuel). Well, that is true to a point in which you can certainly target this adaptations *if* you do a lot of steady work training (meaning many many hours).

OTOH, if you work at improving your VO2 max, your Threshold and Tempo power, you are making your body more efficient at doing more while been able to rely less on glycogen (hence you rely more on fat as fuel), clear lactate faster (hence you can go faster) and your ability to go faster while using less oxygen (more economical). Put it all together and with less time investment you achieved a greater range of very important training adaptations vital for any endurance athlete.

Of course if you are targeting to race an IM or HIM you still need to do specific work at the intensity you will race (specificity concept) and the biggest adaptation we produce when doing steady state effort (60 75% of FTP) is to improve muscle fiber fatigue resistance, that is to allow your body recruit more muscle fiber to do the work at a greater intensity (speed) while allowing it to adapt and work for longer periods of time.

If you see my program targets all ranges: VO2 max 1st, then 20MP, then 60MP which it should be a main focus for any triathlete throughout the year and also you do tempo rides (Q3) and for those training for HIM/IM there is the optional weekend long ride at 60-755 of FTP, this last is the one seeking to consolidate your fitness by making your muscle fibers more fatigue resistant.

2009-12-17 9:49 AM
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Subject: RE: Winter Cycling Plan Official Thread
louiskie - 2009-12-16 3:09 PM Hi Jorge. Question for you. I am really enjoying this program and since getting stronger on the bike is my main goal for the winter it is perfect. However, thinking about the coming months, I have a half marathon in March and a HIM in May (my A-race, but I want to do well at the half marry as well). I am noticing quite a bit of fatigue in my legs the day after I do these sessions. Those are usually the days when I run, but the runs are pretty crappy because of the tired legs. Any suggestions there? I swim after the trainer sessions sometimes and that works fine (different muscle groups) but the running is hard. My official training plan for the HIM (and half marry) starts mid-January and I will keep doing your program when it fits into that program but I want to also start building on the runs (can I have it ALL!? haha). For now though, what would you recommend? Just run on the tired legs and use it as active recovery/good triathlon training? Figure that as I get fitter on the bike, I won't be fatigued the next day (but then again, this program keeps challenging us, so I don't think that will happen soon)? Take it a little easier on the bike? Its tricky because of the conflicting goals of working intensively on the bike but then having to get ready for a half marry. Your/others thoughts? I really don't want to stop the indoor cycling program because it is awesome and should benefit the HIM training immensely.


Any running program has (or should have) at most 2 quality sessions x week (a speed/tempo run and a long run) and the rest are more steady state short/mid distance runs. If your plan follows this pattern I would do the 'easy' runs on the quality days of cycling and do the quality runs on the days off cycling. That should give you 24+ hrs in between quality sessions to recover and be ready. Still you have to be proactive at taking care of the details to place yourself in the best position to succeed.

Do warm up, cool down for your running/biking, stretch/self massage (roller foam, other) at night, fuel properly through the day, always re-fuel post hard training, sleep, etc. If you just push your body without helping it to recover fast enough fatigue will begin creep in and you'll begin having crappy sessions more often which is the sure path towards over reaching or worst. Also you could think of taking days off or just active recovery days (ie. an easy swim) on days you need to get your energy and mind re-charge.

Please keep in mind, there is no 'it will get easier' in this program (or the plans I set for my athletes). Any training program should methodically keep pushing you to keep forcing your body to adapt, I shake my head when I see plans conducive to plateaus, yes you want to do enough to adapt and grow fitter and recover at the same time, but you almost never want to purposely do so little that it leads to plateaus. Hence even though you guys will get fitter if you train consistently, as we get to retest every so often we are constantly pushing our limits hence to quote Lemon: "It doesn't get easier, you just go faster".

2009-12-17 9:59 AM
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Subject: RE: Winter Cycling Plan Official Thread
skarl - 2009-12-16 11:04 PM I read somewhere that cycling helps your running, but not vice versa. 

It depends, there can be some cross benefits like improvements on your aerobic capacity and others but still you need to do specific session for one sport or the other to produce optimal adaptations. In triathlon a better cycling fitness might allow you to improve your run times just because you can go faster at a lesser energy cost hence even if your run load remains the same you can go faster as you will now have more energy to spend on the run leg.

In general athletes (in particular inconsistent once) will experience some benefits by just training regardless of what they do. if you normally only train 4 hrs for running but now you are training 10hr though 6hrs are for biking and still you only train 4 hr for running you are training more pushing your body to adapt and grow fitter. IOW, while you are not running any more of what you usually do, in total your body is getting a greater dose of strain forcing it to adapt. You might not improve your run as much if you were to run more but you will run somehow faster just because overall you are training more.

2009-12-17 11:03 AM
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2009-12-17 9:02 PM
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Subject: RE: Winter Cycling Plan Official Thread
davidson3 - 2009-12-16 10:21 AM Jorge

Could you help me out with W7Q3 for HR/RPE?  The workout is stated in terms of Power.

Thanks



JorgeM - 2009-12-12 5:29 PM

Ok folks, week #7 is up: http://jorgepbmcoaching.blogspot.com/

We are shifting gears; after completing round no. 2 of testing we now begin focusing on improving our 20 min power. We'll still do some VO2 max sessions this week plus tempo and long ride and in coming weeks will switch more onto our power threshold why should we work in improving our 20 min power? Well I was going to work on a detailed post for my blog but I found this article online which nicely explains the reasoning and science behind it. It also points out why working on what many athletes/coaches refer to 'base' training might be an ineffective way to train especially for those of us with limited training time.

Anyway, also pay attention to the notes and have fun!



Same question, I never tested for FT before since I am a HRM user.  So, I am not sure what I am supposed to do for this week's work out #3.
-Nick
2009-12-18 7:30 AM
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Subject: RE: Winter Cycling Plan Official Thread
brownnugen - 2009-12-17 9:02 PM
davidson3 - 2009-12-16 10:21 AM Jorge

Could you help me out with W7Q3 for HR/RPE?  The workout is stated in terms of Power.

Thanks



JorgeM - 2009-12-12 5:29 PM

Ok folks, week #7 is up: http://jorgepbmcoaching.blogspot.com/

We are shifting gears; after completing round no. 2 of testing we now begin focusing on improving our 20 min power. We'll still do some VO2 max sessions this week plus tempo and long ride and in coming weeks will switch more onto our power threshold why should we work in improving our 20 min power? Well I was going to work on a detailed post for my blog but I found this article online which nicely explains the reasoning and science behind it. It also points out why working on what many athletes/coaches refer to 'base' training might be an ineffective way to train especially for those of us with limited training time.

Anyway, also pay attention to the notes and have fun!



Same question, I never tested for FT before since I am a HRM user.  So, I am not sure what I am supposed to do for this week's work out #3.
-Nick


Sorry, it was just a typo, it should have read HR and not FT. I'll fix it when I get home
2009-12-18 7:37 AM
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Subject: RE: Winter Cycling Plan Official Thread
So since I decided to restart the program due to missing so many weeks (vacations sure can play havoc on your schedule) I got the joy of doing the 30 min LTHR test again.  I saw that Jorge changes it to 20 later on but decided to stick with the 30.  I felt much better about my effort this time and the numbers are a bit higher to reflect that.  I almost feel like it is harder mentally then physically to maintain the hurt that long.  Course it only starts hurting about half way through. 
2009-12-18 7:41 AM
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Subject: RE: Winter Cycling Plan Official Thread
trotpntbll - 2009-12-17 11:03 AM Jorge, dumb question, but given the article you posted I got to thinking the other night. If I were to repeat this plan, multiple times throughout the year, would gains still come as they have? Obviously there is likely to be a plateau at some point but if the plan has a specific focus for each point, and it was placed into my plan for training, is there a negative to repeating this specific plan multiple times?

Mainly because I'm hoping to focus more on HIT training foe awhile to see the gains I want before I really put in the saddle time and up the volume for the HIM I'm doing......
as long as you are testing to keep on pushing yourself you should keep improving though as you get fitter the gains rate diminishes and it becomes a tad harder to improve. Also remember that through the year you will gain and lose fitness, it is just a matter of how much you lose what will define how much you can gain for coming months.

i.e. I am planning work towards increasing min FTP as much as I can until March and then just maintain it while I switch onto IM specific training (long steady state rides) however the extra load of just riding more should still allow me to increase my fitness ergo my FTP. After LP I will take a break and then start riding again training for cyclo-cross season. I'll lose some fitness but I'll just test at the beginning and see were I am and go from there.
2009-12-18 8:58 AM
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2009-12-19 3:04 PM
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2009-12-19 3:23 PM
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Subject: RE: Winter Cycling Plan Official Thread
Finished week 3 last night (no, I'm not bragging . . . a little embarrassed that it took me so long).  Work got in the way, so picking back up with week 4.  I'll just go 10 days straight and catch back up with y'all.  Just kidding.  Looking forward to getting back into it, though.
2009-12-19 9:02 PM
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Subject: RE: Winter Cycling Plan Official Thread
trotpntbll - 2009-12-19 3:04 PM Well I'm going to be taking 2 weeks off, maybe doing something here and there, to try and get my IT back to 100% and to just mentally prepare for the next couple of months. I also won't be near my trainer during the holidays so it's an ideal time to do nothing and come back ready to really put the time in.

SO I'll be picking it back up, redoing this past weeks workouts and hopefully won't die when I start back up! The rest is much needed though.

I'll be a little more quite but look forward to really getting that wattage up in the near future.


Yes take it easy and heal up. 
2009-12-20 12:21 PM
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Subject: RE: Winter Cycling Plan Official Thread
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