Newbz'z group is FULL!!!!!! (Page 17)

It has been awhile since I read that book. I thought the articles about the different "legends" of running were particularly interesting. While Noakes is one of the foremost physiologists in the field, he has proposed some radical ideas (central governor's theory) etc. The book is a little hard to digest, because it seems like he will say one thing and then turn around and contradict what he just said. I think he is a true scientist and any time you drill down you find that any hypothesis will have supporting and refuting evidence. As for predictor of performance, I believe he would say it is good in a gross sense in that it distinguishes people of broadly different levels of performans, but when you get to a select group of similarly performing athletes (in particular elites) the running economy becomes a major factor. Of course it is a factor that can't readily be quantified. As a consequence, two people of similar VO2 max, but different performance will be attributed to difference in running economy (efficiency of utilization of oxygen). Because of the great "fudge factor" called running economy can't be measured you can't separate out other interesting possible factors such as pain tolerance or gutsy performances and understand psychological factors/attributes of performance. It is an excellent book. From a training perspective, however I think Jack Daniels wrote a better book. I also like Pfitzinger's book on Road Racing for Serious runners.

Personally I have heard that there can be considerable variation in the measurement of VO2 max so the quality of the lab, methods employed, and equipment calibration etc are important.

The thing that happens is you have a number so what do you do with it? Knowing that number really get's you no where. If you could change it and monitor the changes, perhaps but it is the least modifiable term in the equation and is not readily measurable. On the other hand, measuring changes in race times as a function of training approaches or pace as a function of heart rate-there you have something. Measuring changes in lactate threshold by a few hundred dollar device is another way or by approximating this value. Although "the pace you can run for a 15K (one hour)" is probably one of the more useful definitions/values of lactate threshold you can know. It hurts to measure it, but can be well approximated from your race performances at shorter distances such as 5K time. The better runner you are the more closely the time can predict you LT. It is very useful and can be understood through Daniels, Pfitzinger's or other good books. That's just running though.

That's good input and I'll have to pick up the book by Jack Daniels once I "finish" reading the "Lore of Running". And I hear you on him contradicting himself but I think you are right that what he is truly trying to do is present all the pertinent research. In some cases the research supports his beliefs and findings and in other cases it does not. However, I do think he does a great job of presenting it all and then presenting his case as well.

And I had similar thoughts about V02 max, heart rate and running economy. He seems to make the case that although both VO2 max and heart rate are valuable data points that they simply aren't predictors of running success. He does this primarily by referring to research done on elite's but he does also reference performance by us mere humans as well. Running economy does seem to be a bit of a scapegoat and the fact that it is so far unmeasurable and unquantifiable give me more questions than answers about how to improve as a runner.

And on your last point, Noakes makes a very good point that the best predictor of running performance is the performance of an athlete at a 10k distance. That isn't surprising but how you apply that to your training (i.e. using pacing numbers as your gold standard vs. heart rate zones/LT) is left a little open ended. So, does anyone know of research and/or methodology to using a Phased (Base, Building, etc.) based purely on TT numbers and pacing strategy. I guess it would be like the way swimmers often train with interval times based on their TT number for the 100, right?

So, with all this being said, can you shed some light on why V02 max and heart rate continue to be used? I mean there is so much data that indicates that neither is a truly accurate reflection of your maximum workload and/or your ability to perform.

Sorry for the long email...I must have taken my verbose pill today...or maybe it is simply the extra cup of coffee I had this afternoon ;-)

--Chris

PS Sorry for any typo's, I barely had time to read this much less reread my unending, lengthy babbling.

That is funny that you say that for swimmers, but I am yet to come across similar tools to what I have seen for runners. If you are a runner, you give me your 15k time and I can tell you what your marathon should be and what your 5K time should be. If your 15 K (you can use 10K equally well) says you should be able to run a 5K faster than what you can, you need to work on your speed. If your marathon is way slower then what your 5K or 10K performance says you should be able to run you need to work on endurannce. Swimming being so much better studied (perhaps) and so much better measured you would think would also have something similar to the running calculators I use, but I have not found them. If you know of them please let me know where to get them. Perhaps because they measure everything every time they just know the relationships based off their 100m time. I just haven't spent enough time with swimmers to know the tools to use.

By the way, I am sorry about the lengthy repsonses, but I love this stuff. I am a research scientist who would have loved to have been an exercise physiologist (except for the pay).

VO2 max is a number that, I believe reflects what is possible for you. It is the velocity at VO2 max that the endurance runner wants to influence-or moreso for distance runners it is the fraction of your VO2 max that you can maintain for the most sustained period of time. That is, to my understanding, where the gains are to be made long term.

Cyclists have the non objective power meter to use in their training, such a device for measuring work output does not exist for the other two sports. I do find HR monitoring to be a very helpful tool, despite its shortcomings. Sure fatigue and dehydration will influence HR, but it still tells me a lot about the stress on my aerobic system.

I am yet to learn about the other sports and hopefully through this website and you experienced folks learn the tools and how to use them. I just know for running what paces or HR I need to work at for VO2 max, and for LT and try to work just above and below them and of course get in the long runs. With tris, they have so many pace zones I don't know what to do with them (yet) or how to distribute the work. Kind of nice to learn about another sport(s).

For running there is a pretty good site that has a lot of this stuff

http://mcmillanrunning.com/index.html

There is a very useful running calculator.

Don't worry....my father is an Industrial Hygenist (with most of his research in epidemiology) and my girlfriend is an Internal Medicine Veterinarian with a research bent...so I've read more than a few research studies and have a bit of science bent myself.

All very true but it is focus on measurement/improvement of VO2 max that confuses me. Using VO2 max as part of the equation makes sense and yet I read a lot of posts (here and on other sites) that infer that tracking and improving your VO2 max is the key....when in fact it has been shown that you can't improve your VO2 max by what, more than 15%? Improving your max speed when at VO2 max makes a little more sense though...

That is interesting, so how are you using HR and how are you using it to direct your training?

And thanks for including the McMillan link, I have used this site and certainly found it helpful. So, how have you used it in your training? I.e. once you've set your best 10k pace, are there zones you can create based on that speed to then use for specific interval work?

Thanks for the information, by the way. I realize these long emails might not be that interesting to everyone else but they certainly are to me.

--Chris

Of course the McMillan site was not around when I was trying to get myself into shape after having gotten up to 236 lbs (ouch). I have discovered it more recently, but it breaks down a lot of different training paces. I am 46 years old and my body doesn't recover like it did when I was a high school runner and weight 138lbs (now I'm 170). I can run twice as much and be able to almost hit my HS times. Case in point, my VO2 max. At least for runners it is expressed as a fraction that includes weight in its denominator. While I can most likely get about as much oxygen on board, I am dividing it up over a much larger mass (I have not grown vertically as much). As you know VO2 max has received much hype but there is not a lot you can do about it. They say you max it out after a few years of intensive intervals. After that, the two best ways to alter VO2max (when expressed as a function of body weight) is by increasing your oxygen carrying capacity (increase amount of Hemoglobin in your body-EPO etc.) or by decreasing weight. Coincidentally my fastest time have come at my lowest weights (last year's marathon at 156lbs). You can make modest improvements though and it is important to do the speed work regularly. Where you can make the gains is through extraction, capillary growth stimulated mostly through long runs. I have many friends who are much structured than I. The magic comes by finding the right balance of speed work and endurance work for the distance you are training. For almost any running program there are three main workouts VO2 max intervals, LT runs (above and below), and long runs. How you balance those depends on the distance and the individual. I find that fast twitchers respond better to speed work and slow twitchers to more distance work. I do not know why, but I have seen this over and over again; strengthen your strengths. We're all endurance/slow twitchers to some extent but the guys who can really crank fast quarters are in the former group and the ones who get stronger as they go longer are in the latter group. Personally, I use my heart rate monitor for the LT runs mostly so as I go I know where I am (I actually learned this first from Bob Kennedy speaking with him at his store one day - that is how he used it). You hear of HRM use mostly for slow runs, warning you to run them slow enough. I generally don't do that. I just run without worry if I'm out for a slow run. I primarily use HRM's for LT runs and look at pace somewhat secondarily (love the Garmin) but it frees me from the track. On the track, I may have a HRM on but I usually have paces and rest intervals timed. I hate track/speed work and do this with a similar paced friend who I let guide the workouts. He happens to be a fast twitcher who loves the track. Most accomplished distance runners I know, one being a 2:36 48 year old marathoner, say if they were to choose just one best bang for the buck workout it would be the LT workouts covering between 3 and 10 miles (just faster and just slower than LT respectively). There is a fairly detailed report by a guy who goes by the name of HADD (just Google it) that captured his detailed approach to training-long but good detailed read. In the end however, I have heard it said before that there is truly one magic formula for running but the problem is that it is different for everyone! I know there are a lot of ways. I am not the most talented in the world, but have been running pretty consistently for the last 8 years and that has allowed me to drop my marathon down to 2:56. Not great, but not bad for a heavy old guy. Things I will likely try next in this arena are increasing the proportion of speed work and introducing hills a bit more. I am not certain how much they will help me get much better but they might. In the mean while, I have this swimming thing I need work on and it appears at the forefront to be a completely different animal. Any help or pointers on that front would be much appreciated.

Wow, too much information in the last post. Tom, glad to see your back! Hope you get better and on the roads soon.

Greg

Yeah... lots of info but good. RC... Here is a link that has a lot of good beginning swimming tips. Being as long as possible in the water is huge. So is an efficient stroke. I actually swim faster when absolutely relaxed and focused on form... when I push I loose a little form and I fall apart.

I know I'm not as detailed... but swimming is really hard to explain and I am definately not at the super competitive level. Just like trying to tell someone how to run properly... How their foot should fall on the pavement, how to find a good tempo, how to properly breathe....

Oh, and how I use HR... I am just beginning.

A lot of what you will read for running HR zone calculation within this site is a 50min TT. 10min warm up... 30 min all out... 10 min cool down. Avg HR taken from the split on the 30min TT is your LT max. Zones are then created from the normal HR zone calcs.

I am just getting into using my HRM. My first HR test I count as being bunk... but I still use my HRM as a litmus test.

Take todays run... I was running easy... things were just not working... HR in the 170s pushing a crusing pace... Not a good sign... The main reason I pulled out.

Rides are the same thing... HR above the 160s I am pushing hard... 170-80s I am sprinting... If I am crusing on my long rides at 140 to 150 and am comfortable with the pace I know I am okay.

and as a follow up... sorry... I want to learn more on how HRMs can be a training tool with RPE.

Edited by JChristoff 2008-07-02 8:38 PM

ok, i'll through out my 2cence on all of this, training, tools, etc. not directly related to any single question, but more my thoughts on all of this. again this is just my take from what i know/have experinced/read.

as far as Vo2 max, LT, etc are concerned, i feel that knowing your Vo2 max is a fairly useless peice of information. you dont need it for your training, and it is not a great indicator of what you potential is. some of the very fastest runners and cyclists in history have had remarkably low Vo2 limits. in running, and cycling, knowing your lactate threshold is a much more useful number to know. in running you can base all of your training from that number alone. if you can have a pace and heart rate from an LT test even better.

in cycling, the power meter hands down wins as the method for testing (outside of a lab test). it does not lie, it works in hills, wind, hot, cold, rain, you name it, it lets you know just how little you are working. unlike heart rates, it doesnt care if you are tired or dehydrated. again, knowing your FTP (functional threashold power), or LT, can give you all the training zones you need for your training plan. you can do these same tests with just heartrate, but it will not be as accurate.

in swimming, the tests/tools to use to calculate your times for other events are either 100s or 100 reapeats (ie 10x100 with 10 or 20 sec rest), and take the ave. or the 500 or 800m test. one of those three methods are what a lot of triathletes use for their swimming estimates.

for myself, i use a 500 TT for swimming goals, in cycling i use a power meter, and in runnign i simply go by RPE. i tried trianing with HR for a while but found it varied WAY too much to help me. it would be all over the place depending on when i worked out, how much i had slept, weather, you name it.

Thanks for the swimming link. I imagine you are correct that pool time, as long as you focus on proper technique, is the most important thing early on. You sure have to think about technique a lot more than in running. With running, for the most part, early on putting in consistent miles is most important. The body is pretty good at learning how to put out the least amount of energy to get the job done. The more miles, the more it finds its natural gait etc.

re "in swimming, the tests/tools to use to calculate your times for other events are either 100s or 100 reapeats (ie 10x100 with 10 or 20 sec rest), and take the ave. or the 500 or 800m test. one of those three methods are what a lot of triathletes use for their swimming estimates."

That is what I am looking for, where do I find this information? Is there a best reference book? Yesterday I swam my best 100m on the long course and got a time of 1:44 (my fastest ever-laughable to many but my best). How fast should I be able to go for 500 m and what kind of training paces for different distances and types of workouts should I use. Can you point me in the right direction?

I just started swimming with a masters group and kind of, to the best of my ability, follow what they do-but cut off lengths to meet their intervals or use zoomers to hit the intervals.

Thanks,
Greg

i'll look around and see what i can find about the swimming, most of what i know there is from training/living with swimmers.


as far as a 100 to 500 times goes, its going to depend on fitness some (obviously getting the 100 time will come first). once you have the fitness base down your best 100 vs best 500 should be around 8-10 sec per 100 slower (i am sure others will say other wise but thats about where i am/was).

training wise try and get the time in to start with, the speed willl come with practice and tech.

if you need specifc ideas/workouts let me know.

Greg,

Thanks for the great, albeit long post...just one thing though, paragraphs are our friends ;-)

"I find that fast twitchers respond better to speed work and slow twitchers to more distance work. I do not know why, but I have seen this over and over again; strengthen your strengths. We're all endurance/slow twitchers to some extent but the guys who can really crank fast quarters are in the former group and the ones who get stronger as they go longer are in the latter group." I think you hinted at the answer to this...each of us has a genetically defined mix of type one and type two muscle. That mix has a lot to do with our speed and endurance potential...it isn't the only factor but certainly helps to explain why some people are speedy and others can run all day without stopping.

Also thanks for the info on HADD, I'll google that this weekend and see what I can find. I'd love to read some other perspectives even if I ultimately just adapt all I've learned to my unique set of training parameters. I just don't like guessing when what we are doing has been well researched and the wheel has been invented, so to speak.

Also, thanks for your input David. I've never used a PowerMeter so I'll trust you on that one but I do already use a TT approach to running/swimming. I do find using a TT pace and using it to set interval speeds helpul but a bit tedious for swimming...I feel like I spend more time checking my splits than swimming some times. However, I purely use RPE for running...until I run with a Garmin I don't have the ability to do set intervals at specific and accurate pace.

Any other thoughts would be great so keep sending them along. Otherwise, I'll continue to research in order to try to figure this mess out. One thing is for sure, I'm not rushing to incorporate heart rate, VO2 max and/or LT in to my training until I know a bit more about it. RPE may be subjective but it has gotten me this far so it can't be all bad, right?

--Chris

Thanks, those rules of thumb are what I am looking for. I think you stated a universal when you said its going to depend on fitness. That same fall off occurs with running. Early on most runners have faster mile or 5K times, but when they use race calculators they find they can't hit the mark (they run slower).

I am not too analytical in my training though I know many who are. I would probably be better off if I were. Moving to tris, time might require I get more analytical.

David, Chris you guys may already know this but it's a fairly good rule of thumb for running - typically if you double your distance your pace slows down by maybe 10-15s/mile.

As for the week so far, my cycling is way off but tomorrow I have a long bike ride planned with friends (actually my company is sponsoring a CIBA-central Indiana Bicycling assoc. ride) I hope the weather is better than today. That ride should get me back on track, though it will be relatively slow.

aside from 50 and 100 repeats where i know within a sec or two where i should be, the only other time in swimming i pay a lot of attention too (aisde from tests), is my rest interval. pacing wise i go off of RPE. and i agree, preceived effort is more than enough if you listen to your body. i like the power meter in cycling simply for the fact that i dont do more than i need to with intervals right now, and i know when i train a lot i tend to feel beat up all the time, so this is good to keep me still wroking when i would prob otherwise pansy out.

You make some good points about knowing when you are putting it out or not. I think most of us fall in and out of fitness as the year goes by. If I haven't raced for awhile, but I know my history (what HR I can hold for what distances) I can use the HRM as a gauge. I know what average heart rate I can hold for a 5K, 10K, 15K 1/2 M, and marathon when in peak shape. There is a mental component to performance and a physical component. Heart rate is good immediate feedback. As fitness improves, your lactate threshold will go to a higher and higher fraction of your heart rate max before you accumulate protons (lactate). As a result you will be able to sustain a higher heart rate and pace for a given distance. Early in a period of racing it is quite useful to use a HRM. Later in a season I can pretty much go by feel as I tune into my effort.

FYI, guys:

Goals for this week are to swim 8500 yards, bike about 65 miles and run about 15 miles. For last week here is how my numbers worked out: Swim was 8700 yards, bike was 50 miles and run was 13.58 miles. So, I hit all my numbers, yahoo! This week will be a bit tougher due to some stuff outside of training and about a 30% increase in total volume. But I'll get it all in, somehow.

Also, for anyone on at the moment...I'm in a mental debate about whether I do a bike TT that is schedule for tonight or I take a pretty easy 45 minute run. My legs could use a break from the bike but a TT sounds like more fun than slogging through a six or seven mile run ;-) Thoughts?

Hope everyone had a great Fourth!

--Chris

I came pretty close on hitting my goal, but unfortunately the week was back end loaded, so I got much of it in on the weekend. I hit the 10K swim and got in two workouts with the masters group. I guess that is what I need to get faster. I went over to the YMCA yesterday and got in my last 1000 meters so I could hit that goal (kind of hokey sliding in a workout just to hit the goal). I resisted doing the same to hit my bike mileage, I fell short (91.5 instead of 100 miles). Weather was not so good around here last week. I had a long ride scheduled for Friday, but it was canceled due to rain so I found myself playing catch up Sat. and Sunday. I went a little longer on my run than projected, 36 miles instead of 30. That was a big week for me I and I'm pretty tired today, couldn't do much more so this week I will try (10K, 90mi, 30mi). I am trying to make this three week "mesocycle" my biggest for the year and want to hit a tri late this month or very early August (two good races I'm looking into). My key goal for the week is to get on the bike at least three times with one being very hard/fast (with the roadies).

Hope all is well with David, Tom, Scott, Justin and all are doing well - haven't checked in lately. Probably vacation time.

doing well here, i worked at ceaser creek this past weekend so was out of town the whole time.

training is going well, didnt quiet hit my goals but still much higher than normal.

around 12k swimming i think (if i looked at it correctly), low running again, 12 or so hours on the bike.

next week should be even higher

i may be racing the hocking hills triathlon as part of my training so that should be a blast.

Hey guys. Sounds like everyone is doing well. Work has picked up for me so I'm not spending much time actually in the office these days and when I'm there I'm tied up constantly.

I came pretty close to my goals last week but not close enough to post :-) I have been having a pretty hard time getting in my swimming and biking now that I've increased my runs for the marathon training. I actually haven't been in the water in 3 weeks now (seems to be the most inconvenient for me) and I'm enjoying the running so much I'm not very motivated to get on the bike. So, it could be worse but I need to overcome this mentally for the next 8 weeks and then I can concentrate solely on running.

Any of you guys that have trained for distance simultaneously... what are some suggestions for fitting it all in??? (ETA: I generally work 7 - 4+.)  My running plan has me running 5 days/week (S, M, T, TH, S) with Wednesday on the bike, Friday off, and Thursday and Sunday as Run/Swim days. So far I haven't made it through the whole week. I'm thinking of taking another day off of running and dedicating a day to swimming.

Any and all advice is welcome. Keep up the good work everyone!!!

Edited by shaggy28 2008-07-08 7:53 PM

i am putting in about 20k swimming, 25miles running and 15-17 hours biking, (approx 20-25 hours total) per week. for me as long as i have time to get the stuff in, just keeping the workouts easy and more frequent slightly shorter stuff keeps me going better than harder/longer workouts.


this has me training 2 and 3 times a day which can be tough at first, but as i have gotten used to it i am actually enjoying this a lot.

Hey Scott! I've been wondering where you were hiding ;-)

Earlier this year I did my first marathon and trained for it while completing a beginner sprint plan that BT offers. I focused on running three days a week (although I should have done four) with two shorter tempo sessions and one long slow run on the weekends. If I'd done a fourth day I would have added in a mid-distance recovery run with no speed focus at all...and I would have likely added it the day after my long run as a way to burn off some lactic acid. It was hard but I also squeezed in three short swim sessions (1500 - 2000 yards each) and 2/3 bike sessions of varying intensity/duration. I managed to get it in but I pulled back the intensity on both the bike and swim in order to get the most out of the run sessions. I also learned to listen to my body and skip the occasional swim or bike session if I needed to.

Personally, I don't think I could have been running five days a week and doing everything else but that is just me. And I feel your pain on how tough it is to schedule everything. I work 7:30 to 5 M-F and have about an hour commute each way. Which means that to get my training in I'm up at 4:30 a few days a week and I'm up around sunrise on the weekends. It certainly isn't a way to live a balanced life but I'm loving it so far so I wouldn't change a thing aside from my commute.

My advice would be to back off the run by cutting one session out and make getting at least two (ideally, three) bike and swim sessions a priority. Keep the intensity low at first and build up as your body adjusts...oh and eat a lot ;-) Once your distance runs get over 13 or so miles you will be burning a ton of calories and your body will need the extra fuel to keep up.

Hope that helps!

--Chris

You've gotten some good advice. It is pretty tricky balancing all three sports. It's much easier to focus on one. I will likely run Chicago coming up so next month I will have to bump up my mileage. I think I will leave out some of the "junk miles" and keep the swimming going. Overall my body, my legs, my back, my everything feels a lot better. I think it is as much due to the swimming as the lower mileage. The swim is excellent recovery from the pounding because it stretches you out and of course it uses quite different muscles. Personally I think the key to the marathon is the long run. Most of us get plenty of miles at a pace faster than marathon pace so what we lack is endurance. I bet I can run just as fast as I did last year but only run four days a weeks with all of the cross training. As the marathon approaches I will speed up the last 6 miles of the long run (20 milers) to a little faster than marathon pace.

As for finding the time, I work from 7-4 mostly with a 30-45 minute commute each way. You just find the time. I have one shot in the morning, I like Chris, get up at 4:30 if I can drag arse out of bed, I have one shot at a sport at lunch time if I don't have a meeting on my calendar, and one shot in the eve. Motivation, fatigue, and life happens to determine how many of those possibilities I hit.

This is a crazy life, but it feels pretty good!