Ethics...switching over to the competitor (Page 2)

My question is: does either company offer a product for you to sell that you believe in more?

It's easier to sell what you believe, and customers pick up on that as well. That can make a huge difference in your success (and conscience) in the long run.

I think that it is very dependent on other factors.  Several years ago, there were 2 child psychiatrists at my department.  We were both looking at teaching positions, and both got offered the jobs we wanted.  She was going to be relocating to another state to take hers.  If I also took mine, there were many programs that would have shut down.  I went to the department chair and told him what I needed from the hospital in order to stay.  They balked at first, but at the 11th hour, gave me what I wanted.  A couple of years later, we got a new department chair, who actually got me even more money and set up an incentive plan, so that we could become more competitive and attract more child psychiatrists. I have never felt that I am on the chopping block.  I was still getting calls from the people at the other hospital a year and two later, asking if I would come join them. I still haven't left (though I might in the future - I have made no secret of the fact that I want to live somewhere close to the shore; and there is also the issue of relocating to be near family at some point).  In no way has it been a career suicide in my line of work. (of course, being in a specialized field with a significant shortage of docs helps).

I haven't read through all of the posts...but I'm sure you're just kicking around some ideas.

I've worked for 2 companies since college and they are both competitors.  However, I didn't sign a non-competitive clause and I didn't leave 1 company for the other.  AND there was about a 9 month break in between.

But I would definitely consider it.  If the money is better and benefits are equal or equivalent and you think you'd enjoy working there then SERIOUSLY consider. 

Your company and your customers have to understand the bottom line...you work to live...not live to work - - unfortunately some things ARE about the money...

I don't know if I'd say "never", but it is true that no matter what, you'll always be viewed by your boss as the guy who quit and who decided to stay but only after they had to pay him more money.

Long term or next year?  Which move is better in the LONG TERM?

As opposed to what?  The sap who allowed himself to be paid less than market value? In a small company, loyalty may mean something. In a large corporation, it's hard to believe that people are going to be valued strictly for their loyalty.  Accepting lower pay may protect your job, but I think less for reasons of loyalty and more as a cost-cutting issue for the company.  Employee X makes $20k more than employee Y - in hard times, employee X is more a liability unless they bring >$20+k more to the business than employee Y.

I don't want to go into details, but I have had personal experience with being undervalued monetarily, and frankly the loyalty I had demonstrated over a decade (a decade in which 4 other child psychiatrists had come and gone) turned out to be worth less than 10% of my salary (which at the time was the lowest I could make within driving distance if I chose any of the other openings available at the time).  Companies may value loyalty, but like everything else in business, if they can get it for less, they will.

Strictly?  No.  But should loyalty be valued at all sized companies?  Absolutely.  (And loyalty is a two way street).  Soe of the most loyal employers I have had were larger compaies.  The mom and pop employers were the worst. (Just my situation here, but it happens)

OK NEVER is a bit strong but I'd say the cases where you should accept a counteroffer are few and far between.

Coming from a small business owner's perspective, I view the "give me more money or I'm leaving" attitude as childish and immature.  If you want more money from me, make your case in an adult manner and we'll discuss it.  We will set some goals for you to obtain and discuss your past accomplishments.  Don't threaten me (remember I'm the employer and the one with the power).  If you are unhappy with my answer then by all means leave. 

I honestly believe that in a majority of the cases when an employer offers a counteroffer they are desperate to keep your skill set but will not forgot being put over a barrel.  It's not a good way to strengthen the employee-employer relationship.

This.

I don't know what type of sales you are doing - but sales is relationship based.  Some more than others - but it sounds like you have an existing customer base that you will continue to sell to.  Those customers likely buy from you because of the relationship, not because the widget you sell them is that much better then the competitors widget.  I do technical sales - we used to have 4-5 guys that worked here that ruled the market.  The sold a ton of stuff - well, they left and started a competitors business (this was before I started).  Guess what, they still have most of the customers loyal to them.  If your business is anything like mine - customers come and go all the time too - they stay in the market, but go from company to company.

On ethics/loyalty: i can understand those if you work for a small company. . . but i work for a big corporation and i don't really understand loyalty to a big corporation. . they sure don't act loyal to the employees (my point of view).

I have been selling in the hi-tech industry for years and have never moved to a competitor.

However - I know numerous people who have and it does have some issues. It is NOT unethical, the main thing that you need to be concerned is how your customers view it. With people you never sold anything to you can let them know you went to the better company.

If you DON'T believe the other company is better but just going there for $$ that would be a hard thing to sell against.

This may happen in a very niche market but if you look at the vast majority of sales and managers resume's and they have been at companies in the same industry.

Even CEO's of Fortune 500 companies go over to the competition.

OK, but if you have been woefully underpaid, but otherwise like what you do and the people you work with, shouldn't the employer recognize this and offer you more money?  The whole issue of loyalty is that you are giving the current employer first crack at keeping a hopefully valuable asset.  Otherwise, it's just "take the money and run", isn't it?

If I know I can make more elsewhere, do you think I will forget being undervalued? How do you think that affects morale, recruitment, retention?

Well, these are sales jobs...so if it goes on I am not aware (getting more pay), but for the most part we all get a similar salary and the commission structure is clearly defined.  So it's really a comparison of the two comp plans and I doubt current company would match them.

in short, the $50K is a difference in salary, the commissions are completely different and I learned more about them today.  Current pays 22% on "growth" company B pays 5% on total $...which in nice as the years go by and you are still paid on the business you grew in the previous years.  So actually, we "could" be talking about a much higher payday without going into too much detail.

Regarding opportunity...well there is certainly more opportunity at current company as company B is more of an established start up, but still small compared to current.  Being sales we are already kind of top of the food chain when it comes to pay, so if you mean opportunity in that regard not much, kinda where I'm at now...with the exception of the possible buy out.  I clearly would rather work for current company but it sounds like company B is just a bit more "about the benjamins"...so It's tough.  The other part in this equation is it looks like B has potential to be bought out at some point, and if that happens it's cool...but I would likely see old faces and that may be a bit odd.

Anyway, I am sure people are having harder decisions to make out there.  Thanks for all the feedback.

Edited by sax 2010-02-12 3:12 PM

Well, I had a phone con with the hiring manager and another rep.  It just all seemed srong the more I talked to them.  For one the pay was not what it was cracked up to be...I mean yes it was more of a guarantee...but commission wise it is almost a wash.  A lot of what the manager was selling about the company (less micro-management, less bureaucracy, more motivated reps) I thought was completely absurd and not applicable. 

I spoke to him figuring I might as well keep it friendly (never know who you will run into in the future) but in the end it just didn't feel right.

Then I felt so dirty when my boss called me about 30 minutes later to discuss career progression and sending me to get a company paid for MBA.

Jeez!


Pretending this never happened....

...although it is a small community, so perhaps I will mention it when the time is right.

Crazy 2 weeks that's for sure.

Whoa, nice! Very cool. I wouldn't be too terribly surprised if your boss knows the Other Guy is out searching, and wants to keep you happy (even if s/he doesn't know that you were already targeted, s/he is likely very aware that they are using these tactics). Congrats!

And pretending it never happened but keeping it in the back pocket is probably a good idea. Enjoy your MBA!