Elementary principals will be able to paddle misbehaving students (Page 2)

Great thoughts Jim. The truth be told, we live in a really different time that even I did growing up (I'm mid 40's.) In our society, it's really tough to "make" kids do anything. Parenting  has some of the most extensive research behind it and there are some tools out there that help parents teach kids life lessons in a meaningful way. l

I rarely raise my voice to my children (11 and 7) and I’ve rarely struck them.

I use those two parenting tools in very specific circumstances.

I’ve only ever shouted at either of them when they were rude to their mother.  I’ve only struck each of them once (open hand across the calf) when they were putting their lives in danger – the first time one of them was playing with a plug in an electric socket and the second time the other one tried to chase a ball out into the road (I saw her about to do it and grabbed her after two steps).

By using these tools rarely they really have the desired effect.

What’s important is that I’ve never lost control of my emotions, I don’t get angry, frustrated or annoyed with them.  They’re children and they need to push boundaries – I expect and want them to be a bit naughty sometimes and it’s my job to guide them through those situations by getting them to reflect.  I think it’s sad when I see parents shouting at their children because they’re clearly genuinely in an annoyed or aggravated state.  The child will quickly lose respect and will also fail to respond appropriately when you’re shouting and it’s for a reason as they’ve heard it all before.

I don’t know what kind of behaviour qualifies for corporal punishment but if it’s being generally mischievous and child-like then I think the teachers should work on being better teachers.  When I had a good teacher, I was so engaged in what I was learning I didn’t want to distract myself by doing other fun stuff like larking about with classmates.

I know you said "butt."

However, I cannot shake the visual of Cesar Milan giving my son a quick whack behind the ear making that sound he makes.

Current employment excepted, but when I had traditional district positions that type of talk was as welcome as it is in internet chatrooms.

ETA - lack of sarc font is intentional.

You have disrespectful kids in school because they are disrespectful to the parents.

Last week we had a whole class meeting where a child pushed another, every one saw it, the kid admitted it, was given a detention (after school for an hour).  The parent was called and said she refused to allow him to serve the detention because she didn't agree with it.

Its ridiculous.

the overall decline of the family, lack of parenting, impatience in a me-first society, and frustration that the school isn't fixing everything that the family should be instilling at home...schools get blamed for everything, so do teachers, and I'm frankly sick of it.

If parents don't want to be parents, then don't have kids.

That is why when I was a Vice-Principal in a rough neighborhood, we never called them detentions.

They were "alternative to suspensions"... Feel free to refuse my alternative.

And yes, twice in my career I had a parent drop a kid off when they weren't supposed to be at school where involved the police.

Once because of a suspension, once because of a placement disagreement (parent even ran over a teacher's foot as she pushed special needs kid out of car and peeled out.)

In the suspension case, the parent finally relented and the LA County sheriff's deputy explained that the student was legally trespassing, but because the parent was the one causing it would be the one cited and given a court date.

Spanking doesn't have to be out of frustration and should never be done out of anger. It is a consequence same as any other. You may not like that particular consequence but that doesn't make it invalid for use. 

If I tell a kid not to do something or they will be spanked, they hear, understand, then proceed to do it anyway the consequence was already laid out and they will receive it. There isn't any anger involved and there shouldn't be. 

I could just as easily say it is a sad commentary that we choose to put our children in time out and imprison them in their own time out space instead of logically reasoning with them. What does that teach? That if you are bad you will get locked up? 

Hmmmm ya know, both sound like real life. If I go up to a couple in a bar and ask the wife for pizza there is a good chance I'll get smacked. If I get drunk then drive home I'll get locked up. If I mouth off to the cop who is trying to arrest me I will get smacked or tazed, they won't "be reasonable" with me. 

Different consequences work on different kids and work for different parents. It is up to the parent to figure out what works for them or their kid. But condemning one parents choice is out of line IMO. 

Now I agree that a beating in the Walmart parking lot because the parent is finally peeved off is not an appropriate use of spanking. But in the context I laid out above it is a viable option. 

But of course... you and I don't have kids so we don't know anything and really shouldn't be discussing this!

I don't know...  Doesn't quite seem the same.

So if we don't spank in frustration or anger...  Doesn't it seem even LESS logical to spank when happy, sad, disappointed, or any other emotion?  "I'm not mad or angry, so I'm going to smack my kid".

I think you probably mean don't spank when in a rage and not in control.  It can get out of hand.

In my head, time out or "imprisonment" is not the same thing as striking.  Probably why we lock up criminals instead of public floggings or chopping off hands like in the old days.  Physical violence is just another level (and a lower level).

Your analogy's are interesting.  I'm guessing that if you ask a couple for sex, you probably would NOT get smacked.  Probably told to take a hike and go away.  If you were persistent after attempts to reason with you to stop?  Then you get popped.  BUT, you are also better equipped to know what's right and wrong and made the conscious decision to do so.  You also can defend yourself (even if you impaired your self by getting drunk).  Kids are less equipped to know right from wrong - they may not have learned it yet and in no way can defend themselves.

Police probably let an AMAZING amount of talk go without tazzing.  In fact, I would assume they would have to present some pretty solid indication there was actual physical resistance before they busted out the tazzer and/or spray.  We can ask the cops for clarification.  I'm sure they let someone mouth off all they want and ignore it.  But offer physical resistance?  It's on.  So maybe a swat on the bottom if a kid is offering up physical resistance?

But you are right.  I don't have kids of my own.  But I was a day camp counselor for many years and had kids act up.  We COULDN'T strike a child and a simple time out or visit to the directors office where they could sit and watch all the other kids play?  That was amazingly effective.

Maybe I will be dishing out smacks left and right with I have kids.  I don't know.  I'm actually more interested in the concept of using violence to resolve issues is something that we perpetuate generation after generation and as a people, seem to so easily resort to.

In a perfect world, and a world we should strive for, IMO, we wouldn't need to spank kids, or shoot intruders, or worry about terrorists, or have wars...  All of it seems to just indicate how violent our society is.

Trust me, I'm no pacifist.  Trained for years to fight and think guns are cool - and would use both if I had to.  But man, wouldn't it be a great world if that wasn't needed.  Maybe we could start at a small level and ask if corporal punishment for kids is really needed.  Maybe that's a starting point.  Teaching our kids by example that hitting doesn't have to be the solution.  Then maybe they don't hit their kids when they grow up.  Or other kids/people when there is conflict... and so on.

If we perpetuate corporal punishment.  It never goes away.  Is that something to strive for?

I suppose that my overall point that perhaps I did not state clearly is that there are different strokes (smacks) for different people.

In your head you see spanking as a reaction in frustration or anger and you see it as violence. Which is fine, and like you said that might change if you have a kid of your own. 

Just as an example lets say I see locking a child in isolation and then making them watch all the other kids have fun and excluding them is psychologically damaging and emotionally devastating. Where as a spanking takes 2 minutes, does no permanent damage and the kid goes back to play and isn't excluded.

Obviously that is not my view but it is just as valid as saying that spanking is violence and inappropriate.

Now if you want to use time outs on your kid, more power to you unless you are locking them in a basement in bad conditions for extended periods of time.

If you want to spank your kid, more power to you. Unless you are beating them so as to cause injury or hitting them at random because they are making you mad.

I just don't think that one position should be held as the right position and the other the wrong, it is really up to the parents until a line is crossed in either position. 

You said a kid isn't well equipped to know right from wrong. I don't think spanking is the right choice in a situation where the kid didn't make the choice to do wrong. I still remember an instance when I was a kid where I really thought I had not done anything wrong, my mom was mad about what I had done so she told me to wait for my dad to come home and spank me. So yeah, time out and a spanking, what a deal! Anyway my dad came home, asked what I had done, I told him and said I didn't know I was screwing up and he didn't spank me. In another instance my mom asked if I brushed my teeth before bed, I knew I hadn't, but I lied and said yes. She asked again, I lied again, then she verified that I had not and I got a spanking. I deserved it and knew it, I made the choice to lie and essentially decided that getting away with not brushing was worth the risk of a possible spanking, I just didn't think she was gonna go far enough to verify.

I think spanking is appropriate when it is laid out ahead of time and the kid has a firm grasp on the situation and makes the choice to do wrong. Like I said, if I say don't do X, this is why, if you decide to X you will get spanked. The kid then says what the heck and does X knowing what the risk is then spanking is a viable consequence, just as imprisoning them in a time out space.

I guess we need the child psychologist to chime it.

I just can't go with making one of my day camp kids sit on a bench watching the other kids play for 10 minutes being psychologically damaging and emotionally devastating.  I just can't believe that a time out is that damaging.  Again, not an expert.  I guess if you think that a timeout IS that damaging, then hitting them is your only option - probably doing them a favor.

Shoot, most of the time, they would just sit there and start playing with dirt in front of the bench or some random stick.  There were times I forgot I put them on time out and they sat there for up to 20 minutes just daydreaming and doing what kids do.

As for psychologically damaging?  Try waiting for "the spoon" for 5 minutes, hearing those footsteps come up the stairs and know what pain is going to happen.  Shoot, I think the fear of what was about to happen to me was worse than the actual spank...  I don't think a spank is purely physical.  The fear it instills could even be more damage.  That a trusted parent would come up to hurt you - even if you knew you "deserved" it.

That's getting really old. 

Thanks for your contribution to the discussion. 

hey.. mr sarcasm. Whenever someone writes that it's like a slap in the face to the many of us who do not carry that same judgement. Maybe there are some on BT who would think that, but most of us DON'T. 

Hey Mrs. Snarky. Please review the sarc font thread then note my use of it and the obligatory smilie. Then have yourself a better Friday!

You left out hugging it out. 

I wonder where that falls on the physical/emotional damage spectrum.

I think that a principal taking a kid to the office to hug it out scares me more than the paddling rules, as written.

That's the first time I've ever been called "Snarky", Apologies.

What I really meant to say is that I think most people appreciate thoughtful responses. Personally, I wouldn't judge someones thoughts on a subject just because they haven't had direct experience.

And I don't think I'm unique..

around here you absolutely are, which is why aaron made a joke about it in the first place.