Winning Ugly (Page 2)

Anyone catch Bruyneel twitter comment?

"Sometimes it is better to be silent and thought a fool, then to speak up and remove all doubt!"

I should have said after awards party. He was there for everyone of Armstrong's.

Jorge ... a cardinal rule in cycling is that you do not attack your own team - ever. No matter what the personalities, no matter what it means for your own finish time, you do not jeopardize the placement of another team member for your own personal gain.

Lance demonstrated restraint more than once during the Tour in deference to this rule. Contador showed a lack of retraint and therefore respect for his teammates.

I'll say it again: AC trained with the team for how many months and yet still did not develop friends on the team? I think that is telling enough ...

Who do you think said the following? Was it LA or AC?

"... I think they saw me as just pure business. I didn't speak to them and they didn't dare speak to me. I told the team, 'Don't speak to anybody else, let's just do our job and go home and you can talk to your friends later.'"

The answer is in this article:

A new Lance shows old determination
http://sports.espn.go.com/oly/tdf2009/columns/story?columnist=ford_...

what about not taking jab at your own new teammates even before the tour, is that not a carnal rule? And the bolded part, well I wonder why on the postal/disco times was never another team member even remotely near the top places, oh that's right because it was LA's team and everyone would either work for him unconditionally or go home. This time around he came back into an already established team which already had a leader and joined stating he would support the team and ride to bring awarness to his foundation; wining the tour wasn't really te main goal or the focus. Well that didn't last long did it?

Listen, I realized today it is a waste of time to debate about this; some posters won't be able to put aside their LA admiration and be objective enough to see both sides. In their eyes LA did no harm, he only did the right things, was the best supporting teammate and only did the right things in the best interest of the team. I think different, I think he only supported the team when he realized he wasn't strong enough to beat Alberto, not until then his attitue change and just slighty, hence even though I admire the guy and was pulling for his 2nd place, I don't believe all LA did was indeed for the the best interest of the team. He was thinking of him 1st and when that didn't materialized he then was forced into the supporting role. His twitter postings, his interviews, his comments, to me, they tell a different story. I think somewhere in the middle we can find the truth but LA is no saint.

Contador attacked on the Arcalis and while it seems it wasn't a planned moved he followed the LA recipe to win the tour. Have a strong showing on the opening ITT, attack on the 1st mountain finish stage to establish a lead (in this case as the clear Astana leader), grab the yellow jersey by attacking in the alps, mark any move after that and crush people on the last ITT. He did an odd move at the Col de Colombiere; if Andreas and him didn't talk about it, AC did a dumb move. If they did discuss it and Kloden had no legs to follow then I don't blame AC for trying to put more time onto Wiggins and LA. I guess only AC and Kloden know for the moment.

I said it before, I like both riders and I can't wait to see what happens next year. I will be pulling for both and hoping the stongest rider on the road wins. If AS indeed joins LA's team, saxo bank will have a GC leader to fill up.

Anyway to answer to your question; I don't know, maybe the fact he was the only one not speaking english caused a barrier? But as I said I can't help to wonder why on 3 major tours wins Alberto was never perceived as a bad team player and now he is? what changed in 21 days?

Well, half the time I'm hearing "Never attack your own team, it's a team effort" and the other half it's "It's a race; in the end, it's every man for himself, gotta do what you gotta do to win." So which is it? Is it the second strategy for the great Lance, and the first for everyone else?

Nothing personal and I appreciate that you have taken a position that is contrary ... but couldn't the same thing be said about the Contador apologist who then wrote:



JB so much as said in an interview after the "strange move" that knocked Kloden off the podium that AC was told to stay put with the breakaway.



JB is a polyglot; he delivered instruction from the team car in both English and Spanish.



What changed in 21 days is that one of the strongest, if not the strongest cycling team was fielded for one of the greatest races in the world ... a team that had the opportunity to concievable fill podium positions 1, 2 and 3 at the end of the race.

The reason that did not materialize is because Contador was not a team player. There are instances in many sports where the strongest member of the team is incapable of being a leader.  AC is the cycling posterchild example.

That said, this has little to do with LA individually as the person who bore the brunt of AC's antics was Kloden and the rest of the team.  The fact that LA stands in stark contrast to AC is really the only link between the two.

It is possible that  AC will learn from his mistakes this year and develop the skills necessary to be more than just the strongest rider in the peloton ... but that only comes from realizing and taking responsibility for his mistakes.
 

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Just thought this was an interesting article to add to the discussion...
http://tour-de-france.velonews.com/article/96116/where-will-contador-land

Well, the thing that sticks out in my mind about Lance is George Hincapie's look of pain and betrayal right after Stage 14 was over, and the interview with Lance right after that where all he could do was bumble around with no clear answer or defense. We can debate about pelotons and breakaways and strategies all day, but to me, those interviews said it all.

I can't believe grown men who are supposed to be professionals are airing their dirty laundry on Twitter, of all things. They're acting like a bunch of 13-year-old girls. They should be embarrassed.

Let's not forget that early in the race it was Armstrong who joined a break and sent his guys to the front of it to push the pace. Didn't hear much about that one did you? It was a pretty bold move that got completely down-played--because it was Lance (who could do no wrong). Let's also not forget that it was Contador who wore the number ending in "1" signifying that HE, not Armstrong was the team leader. Your tone is not unlike most of what I hear lately--that Contador had bad intentions and all of Armstrong's intentions were selfless. But what is your source of info? Vs. TV I am assuming. With Trek as one of their major sponsors and Armstrong as their god, do you think we're ever going to hear unbiased talk from them when it comes to Armstrong? LA has never been popular in Europe, and sorry to disappoint you, it's not based on jealousy. It's based on Armstrong and the way he acts. I'm a former road & track cyclist with lots of experience in the peloton. I can see what's going on when I watch the race live. Then I have to listen to Vs. and hear their side which more often than not, conflicts with what I saw. Furthermore, when Armstrong announced his return, he said it would not be with Astana. Then when we found out that wasn't true, he said he would be in a support role. Then we found out that wasn't true either. I mean, come on, how would YOU feel if you were Contador and your whole life was dedicated to winning this race, but then you were told by your team that you would have to make room for Armstrong? Then your every move was scrutinized heavily (by the American media). Just try for once to look at this objectively. Maybe Armstrong is not as selfless as you might think.

And I'm sick to the core of seeing Ben Stiller, Robin Williams, and the rest of LA's big shot friends!!!

Edited by phil25840 2009-07-29 1:50 PM

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Just on the TV part, did you watch the Phil/Paul coverage in the a.m.?   They laid the blame (whether true or not) squarely on LA and Astana, a number of times.  They did not mention Garmin's or Columbia's move.  Perhaps the later coverage with Hummer and Roll said something different, but the live coverage doesn't meet up with the bolded statement above  (and that cuts both ways, for the rest of the coverage they were slobbering over LA, but not that stage)

I am talking about the race in general. Whenever Contador made any kind of a move, he was criticized. If Armstrong made any kind of a move he was praised. Armstrong made a pretty bold move in one of the early stages (6 or 7, to which I was referring) and put some significant time into Contador. LA was praised for the move (in the evening coverage), but as I watched it live, I could see LA's two domestics at the front taking their turns. It appeared to me that LA was attempting to take advantage of the situation to take control of the team. In the Bob Roll coverage, LA was merely doing what any good team rider would do. So, I think we agree, but maybe I wasn't clear in my post.

I do believe that any unbiased talk on Vs. comes from Phil & Paul. Interstingly though, I have heard comments about their rhetoric being toned down this year. Has Vs. put a leash on them?

Edited by phil25840 2009-07-29 3:10 PM

Not that I could tell.   I quite liked it when Paul was pimping for Wiggins as a fellow brit.

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agreed 100%. now let me sit back and wait until you are told you are incorrect, LA did nothing but to be the ultimate brilliant supportive team player and how AC is selfish, bad teammate and needs a lot to learn. Although I think he'll be ok and I can't wait for next year's tour. LA will come with the strongest team still he will be one year older while AC is entering into his prime cycling time. Fireworks will follow although I have a feeling that while LA has a crazy physiology (something I admire a lot) still it won't be all that close when those two go mano a mano and LA will be racing for 2nd with Andy Schleck and Wiggins (unless he is on his own team), that of course is my opinion.

Lance didn't demonstrate any restraint to join the split in one of the early stages. The "team" thing to do would have been to NOT participate in the break in hopes of the field coming back together. But Lance didn't do that. His two team partners in that large break were at the front, doing their share. If Contador had done exactly the same thing, he would have been criticized relentlessly. But Bob Roll and the Vs. team were singing all praise to the mighty and gracious Lance.

Armstrong has really been high on the "Team First" soapbox lately, but objective viewers usually realize that his idea of "team" is one where everybody rides for HIM.

The way that AC kept looking back at Kloden after his attack says to me that it was a planned move--one that Kloden, as it turned out, didn't have the legs for. Maybe he wanted Kloden to stay with the Schleks; maybe he wanted the move to isolate the Schleks. However, the US media (Vs.) said that AC's looking back was a sign that he realized his mistake. Truth is, we'll probably never know what really happened.

I must agree, LA was there to win the Tour without a doubt. When it became apparent to him that he was not going to succeed, only then did he become the champion or team cooperation.

Edited by phil25840 2009-07-30 9:44 AM

I just can't help but point out the huge double standard here. Everybody is saying that Contador is showing a huge lack of tact, but Armstrong posts his "pistolero" comment on Twitter and that gets absolutely NO criticism at all. I guess it's true, Armstrong can do nothing wrong in the eyes of so many. I wonder how many people turn and face Texas five times daily for prayer call.

Edited by phil25840 2009-07-30 2:03 PM

yup.  Praise Lance.  We have a revival meeting next Tuesday under the big white tent.  All are welcome

Fixed it for you.

oh geez, thanks.  hope they don't make me turn in my wrist band!

What was the pistolero comment?  That's not a derogatory term in and of itself.