racism (Page 2)

Originally posted by powerman

I can't say you are wrong. But my only point is that racism needs to maintain the ugliness it truly is. By relegating it to a mere prejudice that we all do... it somehow sugar coats what it is. To me at least. Even if we are just arguing degree, or semantics.

Originally posted by trinnas There are other prejudices we do not have specific words for that are quite ugly. Prejudice against the handicapped or homosexuals comes to mind. How is racism any different from those prejudices? They are all feelings of superiority and devaluation based on someone's immutable membership in a group.

Originally posted by powerman

Yes, true. Most those that are against homosexuality think it is a behavior, not genetic. That would change things if they actually thought of them inferior at birth. 

I'm talking minor prejudices based on behavior. You don't like that person because something they do or how they do it... not because you are inferior the very first day you are born.

Originally posted by trinnas So is it safe to say you are prejudiced against people who are racist? I don't know as all people who are racist or have racist tendencies believe that they are genetically superior. To be certain many do, but I would dare say many believe they are culturally superior which is a behavioral difference. Sexism I would say is much more closely associated with a belif in genetic superiority as it transcends racial boundaries.. Racism, classism, sexism, etc. have all been a part of human history for much longer than it has been "unacceptable". To simply dismiss it as a special kind of stupid lends nothing to the understanding of racism. Without understanding there can be no remediation. Understanding how and why harmful prejudices develop allows one to better address the issue.

Originally posted by BrianRunsPhilly

I'll pick nits with you. Prejudice is defined as "a preconceived opinion that is not based on reason or actual experience." If you've heard someone express their racism, you wouldn't be prejudiced against them, you'd dislike them for their actions.

Originally posted by trinnas Then wouldn't saying that all racists believe they are genetically superior be a prejudice unless you have asked every single racist what he or she believes?

Originally posted by trinnas  So is it safe to say you are prejudiced against people who are racist? I don't know as all people who are racist or have racist tendencies believe that they are genetically superior. To be certain many do, but I would dare say many believe they are culturally superior which is a behavioral difference. Sexism I would say is much more closely associated with a belif in genetic superiority as it transcends racial boundaries.. Racism, classism, sexism, etc. have all been a part of human history for much longer than it has been "unacceptable". To simply dismiss it as a special kind of stupid lends nothing to the understanding of racism. Without understanding there can be no remediation. Understanding how and why harmful prejudices develop allows one to better address the issue.

Originally posted by powerman

Now you are getting closer to the point I am having trouble making.

A racist to me is someone that thinks their race is superior. The KKK preach that blacks are mongrels and actually have justification to them being exterminated. Arabs, on mainstream programing actually show Jews are mongrels and an inferior race that should be exterminated. Hitler, set about actually exterminating them because he believed them to be less than human. And today, in America, there are still people that believe covertly, and overtly, that blacks are an inferior race and are less than human.

To paint prejudice in a rosey color... we could call it "preference". EVERYBODY has preferences as to what they like. I do not view blacks that promote doing business with only black businesses as racism... it is a preference to where they want to spend their money and who they want it to help. EVERYBODY tends to want to be around people like themselves. Human are social animals and we "clique up" in every social situation. I prefer to hang out with healthy, non-smoking, middle aged people. I do not care for the stereo typical "New Yorker". Or the laid back slow Southerner. I don't really care for country music, and do not find a lot in common with those that love it. Those are preferences. Those are all prejudices. Yet I can get along with all of them, I can become good friends with all of them, I can work well in teams with all of them... I do not think they are less than human because of those prejudices. 

I can place a "value" on someone based on my judgment. How much I value being around them based on what ever is the deal. I value being around rude, obnoxious, arrogant people pretty low. But I do not consider them "inferior" to me. I see them as making DIFFERENT choices I would not make. They are free to do so... they have every single right that I do to live their lives how they see fit. We are EQUAL as humans. I just don't "like" them. 

When someone views another human being as less than human, or not equal... that to me is a special kind of stupid. That to me is a special kind of ugly. 

 

Originally posted by trinnas To me that is a rather narrow definition of racism, mainly because the concept of race is fluid. How do you make a distinction between race and culture, particularly when the "races" are very closely aligned say Chinese, Japanese, Korean, and Vietnamese. Are they different races or different ethnicities? In the end genetically they are all but identical. In the end we are all genetically all but identical. Outside of groups such as the KKK, who represent a particularly rabid segment of racism, I would hazard to say that most people who exhibit racist tendencies do not do so on the basis of genetics but rather the basis of otherness. The black person who will only shop at black owned stores to me is a form of racism. It is deciding on a course of action based solely on racial criteria. It is damaging to larger group cohesion as many prejudices are and I don't think that is painting any sort of rosy picture. Where are the demarcation lines between preference, prejudice and racism? To me those lines are blurry hence a continuum rather than seperate entities. The history of much of the human race is like building a planet. You start with space dust that slowly, over time coalesces into larger and larger masses. Humans have been doing the same since before we came out of Africa albeit with a great deal of friction and breaking apart along the way. And thank you, this has all been a very good discussion, something that discussions of race and racism rarely are!

Originally posted by powerman

Race is a classification of human populations based on genetic markers and features. Ethnicity can include racial classifications, but broadens it to other characteristics such as religion, and country. Culture is just simply taught to you based on geographical areas. 

So simply put race is genetically what you are born. Everything else is variable and or taught to you. It's the very core of what you start as. As a caucasian, I can be Slavic, Scottish, or American. All three distinctly different ethnicities and cultures, but we are all caucasian. So as a person, I can go to all three of those places and learn how to fit in, but I can't be anything other than caucasian no matter what I do, where I go, or what I learn. 

It's why homosexuality it so fundamentally difficult. If they are truly born that way... which is what I think... that is them. Born, genetically, who they are. But many think it is a choice. A behavior. And actually it can be. I can engage in hosexual sex, but that does not mean I'm gay... except to Andrew Dice Clay... there is no distinction. So it is so difficult thing and so terrible for those having to deal with it... if it's a choice... it still does not matter. So what? But if it is genetic... WOW. I can't imagine. Those would be some tough shoes to walk in. 

Which all goes back to that thing... genetic, behavior, geography. Genetic leaves you no choice, so I think it needs the most protection. I think it needs to be it's own entity. And right back attcha... as always. Discussions with you are always good.

Originally posted by BrianRunsPhilly

What's interesting is that race is technically defined by phenotypes arising from genetic markers, yet racial stereotypes are not. Those are really cultural stereotypes layered on race. What's interesting from a genetic standpoint is that there is more genetic variation within a population (i.e. race) than between populations. I will also add that just because we have not identified a genetic component for something, i.e. being gay, does not mean there isn't one. Complex multigenic traits are notoriously difficult to analyze.

Originally posted by Left Brain

Originally posted by powerman

Now you are getting closer to the point I am having trouble making.

A racist to me is someone that thinks their race is superior. The KKK preach that blacks are mongrels and actually have justification to them being exterminated. Arabs, on mainstream programing actually show Jews are mongrels and an inferior race that should be exterminated. Hitler, set about actually exterminating them because he believed them to be less than human. And today, in America, there are still people that believe covertly, and overtly, that blacks are an inferior race and are less than human.

To paint prejudice in a rosey color... we could call it "preference". EVERYBODY has preferences as to what they like. I do not view blacks that promote doing business with only black businesses as racism... it is a preference to where they want to spend their money and who they want it to help. EVERYBODY tends to want to be around people like themselves. Human are social animals and we "clique up" in every social situation. I prefer to hang out with healthy, non-smoking, middle aged people. I do not care for the stereo typical "New Yorker". Or the laid back slow Southerner. I don't really care for country music, and do not find a lot in common with those that love it. Those are preferences. Those are all prejudices. Yet I can get along with all of them, I can become good friends with all of them, I can work well in teams with all of them... I do not think they are less than human because of those prejudices. 

I can place a "value" on someone based on my judgment. How much I value being around them based on what ever is the deal. I value being around rude, obnoxious, arrogant people pretty low. But I do not consider them "inferior" to me. I see them as making DIFFERENT choices I would not make. They are free to do so... they have every single right that I do to live their lives how they see fit. We are EQUAL as humans. I just don't "like" them. 

When someone views another human being as less than human, or not equal... that to me is a special kind of stupid. That to me is a special kind of ugly. 

 

Originally posted by trinnas I keep responding to the wrong post!! I need to give up on this whole internet thing! What Brian said!

Originally posted by BrianRunsPhilly

 

What's interesting is that race is technically defined by phenotypes arising from genetic markers, yet racial stereotypes are not. Those are really cultural stereotypes layered on race. What's interesting from a genetic standpoint is that there is more genetic variation within a population (i.e. race) than between populations. I will also add that just because we have not identified a genetic component for something, i.e. being gay, does not mean there isn't one. Complex multigenic traits are notoriously difficult to analyze.

Originally posted by powerman

The saddest thing about that is even if you found the marker today, those same idiots out there would look at it like a birth defect instead of a variation. 

Originally posted by BrianRunsPhilly

Wasn't this the original intent of eugenics? Get rid of "inferior genes?"

Originally posted by trinnas We do this now with genetic per screening of embryos in in vitro fertilization as well as abortion of fetuses determined to have genetic abnormalities such as trisomy 21 aka Downs Syndrome.

Originally posted by BrianRunsPhilly

The screening is not the issue, it's what you do with the information. Nobody is forced to get an abortion.

Originally posted by powerman

To paint prejudice in a rosey color... we could call it "preference". EVERYBODY has preferences as to what they like. I do not view blacks that promote doing business with only black businesses as racism... it is a preference to where they want to spend their money and who they want it to help. EVERYBODY tends to want to be around people like themselves. Human are social animals and we "clique up" in every social situation. I prefer to hang out with healthy, non-smoking, middle aged people. I do not care for the stereo typical "New Yorker". Or the laid back slow Southerner. I don't really care for country music, and do not find a lot in common with those that love it. Those are preferences. Those are all prejudices. Yet I can get along with all of them, I can become good friends with all of them, I can work well in teams with all of them... I do not think they are less than human because of those prejudices. 

Originally posted by velocomp

 

So based upon the quote above, it would not be racist for a white person to only do business with other white people?  And male only clubs are o.k.?  And not working with gays is o.k.?  It is just people chosing to work with only people like themselves?  

That in itself is an awful statement.

 

 

Originally posted by Kido

Interesting thread.  For me, it's hard to put words to what FEELS right or wrong.

Honestly, I would probably lump any preconceived notions about a group based purely on the color of their skin (or whatever you tool is to differentiate race) as racism...

I understand the definition is if you base that someone if inferior due to race, then it's racism - so the rest is stereotyping and prejudice?

For example, if someone were to say that African Americans are better athletes, or Asians are better at math, or Jewish people are better with money...  You know, the typical crap people spit out and pretend it's a compliment?  That's not saying those races or inferior.  In fact, it's saying they are superior.  So saying that is the opposite of racism?  I don't know, doesn't pass the smell test.

 

Originally posted by powerman

Not even close to being the same. I am allowed to spend my money how ever I want. And as a consumer, I am free to support which ever businesses as I see fit.

I never said anything about discriminating against or excluding anyone from... that is what you are talking about.