Diminishing returns while fatigued in the pool (Page 2)

x3.

Where is Terry Laughlin when you need him?

I'm not necessarily a big proponent of TI, but reading his book does yield a lot of great advice and stories.  One of the things that I took out of his book, which I last read years ago, is that you're better off practicing good form and your fitness will improve in time.  If you start letting your form break down, you teach your body to swim with bad form.  It is what your body will revert to when its fatigued.  In contrast, if you always use good form, bad habits dont creep in.  Your body doesn't learn bad form and will maintain it even when fatigued.

I recall him talking about the training habits of our olympians back in the 90s compared to other parts of the world.  USA Swimming was in a down period at the time.  Watching practices, it was noticed that swimmers were beating themselves into the ground and forms were breaking down in fatigue.  In contrast, Russia, lead by Alexander Popov, would do tons of drills and form work.   When pushing to all out max effort like in an olympic race, guess who's form broke down (and subsequent speed) and who's didnt?

Bottom line:  Practice good form at all times.  Fitness will come with the practice of good form.  Using bad form when fatigued teaches the body to use bad form when fatigued, making it much harder to learn good form.

x3

When I did masters I sucked even more then I do now and before we took off on sets I couldn't hit the coach either gave me an alternate distance or a specific rest goal instead, depending on what we were doing.

X however many + 1

I think the thing that gets lost in the translation of these types of threads is exactly what someone above mentioned.  Stroke work<endurance? or endurance<stroke work? It is a sliding scale depending on where/who you are.  You have to have (imo) a reasonable amount of form before piling on a bunch of yardage will assist you at.  Will you be able to swim a little faster and a little longer just by cranking out big numbers?  sure.  But wouldnt you agree that it would be more efficient to use less energy to travel the same distances, then add the endurance factor?  Does it make more sense to put a 2000hp motor on a boat dragging a parachute through the water or a 100hp motor on a sleak streamline race boat?  

My opinion.  Assuming one is swimming at or over 2:30 p/100... form, form, form.  As your stroke develops increase your yardage, but either by how long each rep is, or the number of them.  for example if one of your sets is 5x50 on 1:00, then bump to 10x50 or 5x100 on 2:00 etc.   Once you get to where you are swimming better, longer, with good form... then maybe dial back the time a bit.  Maybe 10x100 on 1:50 and so on.  Adding more sets as fitness improves but still working some drills in.

Im no speed demon in the pool from a swimmers standpoint, but I feel I'll finish well this year in AG stuff, my work out today was 400 w/u and drills (mostly catchup and SPL stuff) 5x100 on 1:40, 10x50 on :50, another 5x100 on 1:40 (that one hurt.. a lot) 3x100IM on 2:15 (the last 25 fly was probably funny to watch) then an easy 200 cool down again working SPL.   My form started to get really shakey at the end of the 50 sets, and I was only on the wall maybe 5 seconds on the 100's...but I slowed my turnover and really worked on swimming clean.   Had it broken down to where I couldnt finish by the send off, i would have taken 30 secs, then jumped right back in it.

Lotsa good advice here, keep at it!  and if you get a video for sure post it up so someone more knowledgeable then me at stroke analysis can help ya out!  

Paging Paulo Sousa

I'd hop over to ST and check the thread there as well, some very different opinions from what seem to be posted here and at least worth a read.  I'm not going to chime in on who's right (I certainly don't have the knowledge for that) however, there's some pretty big names over there touting "swim, swim lots, eff technique and keep swimming".

As others have said, you probably have some sort of technique flaw that needs to be addressed if you are dieing on the 300's. Find a good coach that can watch your form and catch things that you don't realize. It is truly astonishing how much something like crossing over or having your head too high can ruin your efficiency.

I started training alone at age 25 after having not swam competitively since I was maybe 13 or 14. Because of my previous experience, I didn't have too much trouble working my way up to workouts of 2400-3000m in a few months... However, I always felt like I was having to work too hard to sustain long swims (500s at any speed would push my heartrate and breathing way up), so I did as I've seen others recommend and really hit the drills 3x a week... I did 5-second glide, one arm, catchup, finger drag, hip touch, closed fist, you name it...

It wasn't until about two months ago when I got an excellent coach (got highschoolers going to trials) to watch me swim, and after one lap, she told me that I was severely crossing over. It turns out all of those drills had ruined my form... Instead she told me to stop with all of the drills and focus on swimming tall and getting my arm entry way out. I was able to set a new 500m best time by 15 seconds that same day. Now that I've worked on it, swimming is easier than ever, and I'm faster than I've ever been. Imagine that... faster and easier at the same time!! It is now possible for me to swim in z2 almost endlessly (can't wait to go out in the lake). I'm sure there is probably more room for me to improve, so I'm going to try and meet her again soon. 

I also asked her about the 2 beat kick, and she said that all of her swimmers are 6 beaters and didn't think anyone used 2 beat anymore, even her 10kers. I also asked her what she does with her weaker kickers and she said that she doesn't have any weak kickers lol, so get that kick strong.

Cliffnotes: Get a coach that knows what they are doing (should be a good highschool club around that has national level swimmers) to look at your stroke and tell you what to do to correct it. Don't push through a set until you correct your mistakes because you may end up hurting yourself.

A 2-beat kick at 1:10 pace/100 by TJ Fry

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAkzF7fPWv4

TJ actually has a super powerful kick and recommends working on kicking, but he also advocates using a 2-beat kick in triathlon. He's one of the strongest swimmers in triathlon.

Yeah, all 19 pages and counting. (I've been following since pg 1)

Just to clarify ... I feel my coach is a very solid coach. He coaches the Master Swim team at the Y, the Dynamo swim team there, and one of the local college teams. He knows my interest is in triathlons, and has helped me find some great improvements from where I was 3 months ago as a complete hack. I feel like his pace of instruction and introducing new challenges is a very good balance between challenge and support. Just wanted to give him his props.

And ... again ... this happened at the end of a 60 minute workout in the final 200yds of a 3 x 300 set. I most certainly do have form and efficiency issues (significant kick issues), but it's not that I can't swim 300 yds. In a set of 4 x 100s last night, I was coming in between 1:35 and 1:40. I'm not sure what my pace would be for a 1000 TT, but I'd guestimate it at 1:50ish right now. I know that's not stellar ... but I'm pleased with it as it compares to where I was 3 months ago.

Not trying to sound defensive here ... just clarifying the original question which was what to do when my level of fatigue IS impacting my form. As has been stated ... we all get to that point. My coach is in Puerto Rico with his college team right now, so I thought I'd ask here instead of waiting for his return. I've already sent him an e-mail asking him to consider the 2 beat as he sees it fitting with my approach.

I'll keep up with the drills, I'll keep working on developing a strong kick and better ankle flexibility. Again, I really appreciate all the input. 

Onward!

Thanks so much for alerting me to this discussion. I don't know what the BT policy is for linking to a discussion on ST, so I'll just mention a contribution from Rappstar over there (page 2) that clicked very well for me.

I am working on technique ... quite regularly, actually. Every day. I am able to work on the technique for much longer in each session now than I was 3 months ago. That's because my fitness has improved. But I will continue to reach that point where the fitness continuum meets the technique continuum. It'll just be at different points further along in what will hopefully continue to be longer and more intense workouts. Two nights ago, that point happened in the third of a a 3 x 300.

Three months ago, I wasn't even thinking about starting a 3 x 300 at the end of 50 minutes of swimming. 

Interesting thread.

Your greatest gains can be made when you are hurting the worst, the most fatigued and simply falling apart. You simply have to find the mental resources to keep your form together and stay on task.

This is the small valve through which only winners pass.

A more eloquent and succinct rendering of what I and several others said earlier.

The thing about "keep going" when you feel like you can't ... it's not STATICALLY ingraining bad form. At that point you can ingrain good form just like you can ingrain bad form. Nobody is forcing your body to do anything but you. If you are AWARE that what you are doing is bad form, then you have enough awareness to change it, too.

I'd also add that even without your conscious input, and even though it may be awkward, painful, and imperfect, at those "awful" moments your body is still seeking a movement pattern through the water that isn't going to suck so badly. That's going to be at least a bit more efficient.

BTW ...

It's fine to link to ST or any other information source from BT (as long as it's not otherwise against forum policy because it's pornographic or a particularly insidious form of spam, for examples).

Here's the swim thread there ...

http://forum.slowtwitch.com/gforum.cgi?do=post_view_flat;post=3698825;page=1;sb=post_latest_reply;so=ASC;mh=25;

(Just FYI they, and I won't elaborate on "they," are not as happy over there if you link here but it's not disallowed. Just frowned upon.)

Reading through most of the posts and there seems, as is customary, to be 2 camps on this issue. It's just not the case. Its not either or, it's both. Swimming yourself into fatigue and failing form doesn't lead to bad form. When you get fatigued I would argue most people become more aware of their flaws ("I notice my form falling apart") not less. At the end of a long run when your knees aren't lifting quite as high as they should and your heels are dragging the ground a little more, your form is falling apart. 2 days later when your fresh, do you start your run doing that? No. When you're in the weight room doing bench press (or whatever) and you have to arch your back to get rep #12 back up on the rack. That's failing form. Do you do that on the first rep the next time you're in the weight room? No.

Failing form means the muscles that are supposed to do their job are under so much stress that they are unable to complete the task effectively. That doesn't mean that you are teaching your nervous system a new techique. It means the technique you want is getting stressed to failure, or exactly what you want. When those muscles repair themselves and come back stronger, you'll be able to hold form a little longer. Conversely, if you never swim to (or through) failure, those muscles and motions don't get better, because they're just not stressed enough.

Take a page from swimmers. In all my years of swimming, we got instruction in small bits and pieces inbetween massive amounts of volume (at least once we got past the swim lessons and learned the basics). Go watch a swim workout. That 9 year old girl who can whip your tail gets about a tenth of the instruction and about ten times the volume. The volume and therefore muscle failure, creates efficiencies. The coach spot checks and provides input.

Triathletes on the other hand read book after book, watch dvds, spend hours on the internet forums asking questions, and then go swim 1500 yards. They don't even get enough volume for any habits to be formed, let alone good ones, under the guise of "I don't want to swim with bad form and acquire bad habits". 2 very different approaches and 2 very different results.

So to the OP: Get in there and work your rear off, and never forget technique for a single stroke, even if you are failing. When given the set of 300's (like someone else said) try and make the first and stay with the set. If you blow up then so be it. Better that then to water-down the set before you even start. It's a killer to your ego and your body, but that's a daily occurrence in the world of swimming. The next time you might get to the second 300, then the 3rd. As kids, we would look at that set as 2X300's because there's no send off for the last one. So you blow it out to make the interval on the 2, and once you do, try and find the energy to finish the last one with everything you got. And lose the crutch. Pull buoys are for pulling sets. Good Luck.

Um, not at good USA Swimming clubs.  We have two coaches, sometimes three, on deck for every workout group, which are normally less than 30 swimmers.  There is an enormous amount of instruction at top level AG clubs.

I do love context. It is very hard in these discussions to pick out usefull info from the "two camps"... experience that can provide context helps a lot. At least me.

My bad. I have no experience at any good USA Swimming clubs. As a result, my stroke is horrible and my times are crap. Thanks for pointing that out.

Bingo. Perfect. Thanks!

I learned a long time ago to leave my ego at the door, the track gates, or wherever. I don't mind getting schooled or failing ... but this is what I wanted to hear so I could make the best use of that moment. 

You could post a video of yourself winning a race, or have someone do it for you.  Wait, you already did that.