Why is 35-39 AG for men so tough compared to 20-24 and 25-29 and 30-34 (Page 2)

Bo's got it right.  In a sprint these kids will crush a field in a local race (and you don't even see 20% of these kids bothering with AG races).....and the 3-6 minutes is not an exaggeration.  It's also on the money that the longer the race is the more it starts to even out.......but not a lot anymore.  There are 18-20 year olds putting down 1:55-2:00 Olys now......but most of them aren't allowed by their coaches to race that distance yet.....so it's coming.  I guess time will tell if these kids stay in and become monster AG'ers after they run out their U23 status (and don't get to the international level), but for sure, the Jr. programs in many, many countries has spawned some very fast racers.

Just being around the youth and Jr programs in the US for 5 years I saw quite a few changes, with 16-17 year olds who show promise now getting the opportunity to race internationally.  These kids have been to Canada, Mexico, Hungary, France, Germany, etc.  And the difference between those kids and the ones just behind them is pretty small.  USAT really has done a great job with the Jr. programs and I know Canada is the same.

I remember back in the 80's you never saw kids at a triathlon.  The standard line back then was that they weren't old enough to have the kind of endurance needed for a triathlon.  Then they started to tap into kids who had been swimming competitively since they were 7 and 8 years old.  Those kids built huge engines and, for the ones who also had some run talent, triathlon was just sitting there waiting for them.

I'll open the worm can.......how many of those 45-60 yo racers are on some type of supplement that is banned?  I know I could get testosterone supplements from my doctor any time I decide I want to....and I know I'll never be tested in an AG race, the same as everybody else knows that.  That's just the the tip of the iceberg for performance enhancing drugs because it's so easy to get.  My guess is that at the pointy end of racers at those ages it's quite prevalent. 

Having been to AG nationals and world championship races and seen some of the old guys........nah, I don't buy the idea that they are even mostly clean.

Oh, I'm not carrying a torch, I couldn't care less.  Unfortunately, however, it has to be included in any discussion of people who race at the pointy end of AG triathlon.

I don't know how much you are deluding yourself or not with regard to improving your run.......but on the other issue, yeah, you're deluding yourself if you don't think AG triathlon is full of PED users.....both knowingly and unknowingly.  Google "Doping in age group triathlon" and enjoy a couple days worth of reading. 

I'm with LB.  I've had open conversations with athletes that tell me T-supplements are fine because their doctor prescribed them.  its all over the place.  Most of them are deluding themselves into saying they aren't cheating.

A few years ago I sat with a couple of 65-70 year old guys in Edmonton, at AG worlds, after they got done with their race, and had a few beers. (actually, they sat with me, as my wife and I had a table and they were looking for a place to land....neither from the US) As you might imagine I'll talk to anyone, any time, everywhere.......and I have no problem bringing up any topic. I've interviewed thousands of people in my career, and I know people pretty well having dealt with all manner of them for 30 years. 

They both used PED's.......no question in my mind....and they didn't care.(and I didn't either, and no, I never asked them outright)  For them it was a way to turn back the clock and enhance their life.  They both laughed out loud when I asked them if anyone they knew had ever been tested for PED's in a national or world AG event. One guy almost spit his beer out laughing when he said, "they're going to test 60 and 70 year old guys?? We're all taking some kind of medicine to keep us going".

I think the truth is, especially if looked at with a strict adherence, AG triathlon is absolutely full of people who use PED's.  The most heavily medicated society in the history of mankind has not skipped triathlon as a reason to use meds and supplements.....no way.  Throw in the gigantic egos and over the top type A folks that the sport attracts and you'd have to be crazy to believe it wasn't all over the sport IMO.

And don't look for USAT to start testing AG'ers more some day.  Why in the world would they do that?

I'm with 3mar with this one. The AG speeds are simply too slow overall for a 'large' number of people to be doping enough to make a difference.

If anything, as I age up into the later years, it feels for sure that people are "doping down" as more and more fast people either stop racing or slow down so much that they're no longer keeping up!

I def wouldn't blame any of my lack of performance relative to my peers by doping - if they're doping, they're clearly not doing a good enough job of it. (And I'm also not a KQ-level athlete.)

In contrast, I look at the staggeringly fast speeds thrown up by the up and coming youngsters in tri and can't help but thinking "WOW - I don't even think I'd come close to those times even with full-out doping!" (And I know they're clean.)

I actually think there are probably a lot of people "doping" in those age groups, but not necessarily doing it to win.  As you noted, vanity is a contributor and I've heard (mostly seen in writing) people say things like, "Well, it's not like I'm winning anyways, so it doesn't really matter if I take testosterone."  Sure, it's doping....but they're not the ones taking the WC slots.

I like to think that everyone who beats me is clean and that they beat me simply because they worked harder, have been at it longer, or are simply more talented than I am.  And I'm with Omar....if they're doping and beating me by only "small" amounts, then they're sure taking a lot of risk for not a lot of reward.  That said, I don't actually know how potent PED's are....are they going to take me from a 4:50 HIM'er to a 4:20 HIM'er?  Or are we talking 4:50 to 4:45?  Cause you're still not winning at 4:45!

Hot Runner - to your point....I don't think anyone (ok, almost anyone) in AG racing uses PED's for prize money, especially in the over 40 crowd.  This is purely ego driven. 45-60 year old folks who do triathlon don't need money.....they need to be able to say they are still winning.

Dude - KQ is plenty of reason for some folks to cheat.  Spend some time googling......it's probably close to common.  I read an article to day about an IM in Europe where it was theorized that 20% used PED's.  I don't doubt it for a minute.  I can go back and find the article......but if you make me do that I'm going to put this laptop in the dishwasher.  LOL

Yep, that's not the article I read, but it was the Frankfurt European Championship that was referenced....and that's just the folks who voluntarily admit it.