Run hard everytime...?!? thoughts...??? (Page 2)

Find a local charity 5k to do on the weekend.  Run it at the highest effort as you can run the distance at that given moment in time in your training.  Then take that time and plug it into here:

http://www.mcmillanrunning.com/Running%20University/Article%201/mcmillanrunningcalculator.htm

Scroll down the page some (ignoring the "prediction" times for longer distances for now) and look at the "recommended ranges" for pacing your workouts.  And go from there!

Read my OP. Also how do you know you are ready to handle a bit more intensity? I follow the Daniels school of thought; if you want to train faster, show me 1st by racing (or doing a time trial test) that you indeed have improved your fitness to the point we need to push you more. 

If you are self-coached athlete you have to do this by trial and error. as you experienced, doing too much too soon will lead to injury (since we get fitter faster of what our muscles can adapt) hence you will have to be patient and add gradually little by little. Start some easy/steady runs adding some strides. Once you can complete all runs in a week + the session with strides and feel you can handle a bit more do the strides intervals longer and every time you know you can handle more the ad a bit more.

ie. Start a 30 min run with 5x30sec strides (done at threshold pace) with 30 sec E pace as recovery. Then build over time to 5x1 min, 5x2 min, 5 min, 10 min, etc. We are talking probably something like 6-12 weeks of gradual small increments with a few unload (easy) weeks in between. Be conservative…

Caveats: I'm not a coach, and I don't train for triathlons.

It depends on goals, ultimately.  If all a person wants to do is get through the thing, 20 is fine.  But if that's the case, the person probably shouldn't care about speedwork, anyway.

My mind, I think 30-35+ consistently at the start of race prep is about the minimum mileage I recommend before one considers doing higher intensity work.  The fundamentals are consistency and frequency, followed by volume.  So I agree with the more runs per week idea.

I also believe that most people would see tremendous gains training for a 10K the way they train for a marathon.

Agreed on your last point. HS we trained for 5k races. My PB was 17:10. Got to college, we trained for 5 mile and 10k races. Couple weeks after the season, I ran a 4 mile race in 20:59.

Now, if you are talking about a straight runner, then yeah, I'd agree that 30 is a good base to start from. But with triathlons, you do get some crossover from the cycling. For the average triathlete training consistently in all 3 discplines, I might not be happy with 20mpw, but I wouldn't consider it a critical deficiency either.

Cool. Thanks! :D

John 

lrobb - 2009-02-12 2:38 PM If you're going to go the 3x/week route, I'd recommend checking into "steady state" runs as McMillan calls them. They're sorta the equivalent of "sweet spot" training for the run, IMO. I've been doing 2 of those per week, plus "aerobic intervals" for speed such as 20 x 30"(90" with good results.

Steady-State Runs Steady-state runs were once a staple in the training programs of U.S. distance runners but somehow fell out of favor. Runners now seem to have only two speeds, slow and fast - no in-between. But the steady-state run is one of the most beneficial types of workouts especially as you complete your base training and during the initial parts of your Stamina phase (see Lecture 5). The appropriate pace range for steady-state runs is between your 30K and half-marathon race pace. Your heart rate will likely be between 83 and 87% of maximum and the runs should last at least 25 minutes and can go as long as an hour and 15 minutes. These are pretty tough efforts not because of the pace but because of the duration of running so be prepared to increase your concentration to stay on pace and to take a good recovery day afterwards in order to reap the full benefits. Begin with shorter steady-state runs of 25 minutes at 30K race pace and build to one hour runs at 30K pace with shorter (25- to 45-minute) steady-state runs at half-marathon pace. Unlike the three Endurance workouts discussed above, steady-state runs are the first workouts that require a warm-up. For all the remaining workouts, you should begin the run with 10 to 20 minutes at an easy pace. Following this warm-up (which may also include stretching and faster "strides", you can proceed into the continuous steady-state run.

Sounds like a tempo run.

Ok, now you all have me a bit confused ...

Most triathlon plans that I have come across have 3 runs per week, with maybe a 4th (and sometimes for the competitive plans 5th) short run as a part of a brick.  My total time this week is 3.5 hours, and I might do a 30 min run this weekend.  So right now, I am at 24 miles and I am training for a HIM.  I followed a similar plan last fall and did great (for me) on the run.  Obviously, I am slower runner than some of you, but I thought I was logging decent running volume when you consider I am also biking and swimming.  I ran 5 days a week this winter when training for a marathon, which I completed in 3:57.

Are you suggesting that this is not sufficient running volume for a HIM or not sufficient volume if you want to be competitive/fast or if you are logging those miles you shouldn't do speed work?  I appreciate the clarification!

I am very careful at throwing general volume ranges because each athlete is different and has different needs/limiters and experience. A you noticed on your last plan you did fine with the amount of running you were doing; yes probably you could have done better running more but who knows, maybe you weren’t ready to handle more volume, maybe you don’t have the time to train more, etc.

Also you have to take into consideration that you are following a general plans and those plans are just that, general so they can apply to most triathletes. Usually they are designed on the conservative side because they are not addressing an athletes needs in particular. When you follow a general plan you have to take this stuff into consideration and be proactive enough about making some adjustments to it to fit YOUR needs.

That been said I know athletes (like me) who on 20-30 mpw can run a 1:24hrs 13.1 miles on a HIM. I know other athletes that run 30-40 mpw and still have trouble running a 1:40hrs 13.1 miles on a HIM.

My advice to you; follow and trust your plan, but if you fee running is a limiter and you might benefit of doing a bit more, then add an extra easy run per week and see how that affects your overall training (swim+bike+run) if you can successfully handle all the load then you are fine and keep it eventually making it a bit longer or harder. You have to balance the training for all sports and still make it fit with your available training time while balancing it with life ya know.

Way I see it, there are two groups.  One group is satisfied with just finishing, maybe seeing some improvement from race to race.  The other group is interested in pushing the limits.

With the first group, you can get by with never doing any intense work and lower mileage.  20 miles/week is fine.  To see improvement, you run a little more.

For the second group, you're going to have to train differently, because the goals are different.  Volume is still highly important, but you also need to start doing other stuff as well.

Thank you for the clarification!  I am trying to keep my running base that I gained from the marathon (this is week 4 post marathon, so I am working back up to higher volume), maintain my swimming base and improve the bike.

I feel comfortable racing sprints and olys, but am still gaining confidence to allow myself to push harder at the HIM distance.  My #1 goal for the year is IM FL, but again, I don't think I am going to attach a time goal to it.

With all of that said, I still plan on doing at least 1 speed workout and 1 long run, with the others falling somewhere in between!

That’s a big assumption, plus tri training isn’t as simple as just running…

Yes of course if you train more you will improve more but for tri training you have to balance 3 sports and also balance it all with your personal life (work, family, social, etc). You also have to consider your limiters and strengths for each athlete and address those; there are athletes who will be better serve just running 20-30 mpw while improving the other 2 sports and still have the capacity to be fast runners for triathlons.

Run training is VERY easy when compared to tris. The longest session you do is around 3-3.5hrs ever now and then hence by running 6 hrs per week @ 9 min/mile pace you can easily get 40mpw.  When tri training you have to add swimming which is not as easy as getting your sneakers on and do it wherever; you have to get to pool and do the session that easily can take 1-1:30hrs of your day. You have to bike and same as swimming you have to find places to do so due to traffic and such and many times you have to do ride between 2-4 hrs (for a HIM) to get specific adaptations every week.

Add it all and athletes have to juggle 8-12 hrs of training x week (for a HIM) and balance what kind of training to do. If you do 3 hrs of swimming and 5 of biking you are left with 2-4 hrs of running and you have to find a way to make the most of it. Hence many times triathletes break down training and focus on cycles and certain times they run more and maintain swim/bike and then they switch it around.  Just because an athlete is running 20-25 mpw doesn’t mean he/she is mediocre and his/her goal is to just finish, many times there is more to it…

Agreed. Also (as evidenced by the popularity of this site) unless you ran competitively in a team setting (hs x-country, college, etc.), OR took classes in running, many people just don't know how to effectively use their time.

They may WANT to go faster, but don't know how to effectively budget their running time to get the most out of their training. So, they go out and run 20-30 mpw, just churning out miles, and then get discouraged because they show minimal improvement. Then they ask why, we all ask what kind of strides/intervals/hills etc they are doing, and they say "Huh?"

John 

Whoa, there, Jorge.

I wasn't saying that someone training 20 miles a week is only interested in just finishing.  What I said was that if you're only interested in finishing, you don't need to do intensity, and can get by on lower mileage.

If you want to work towards reaching your potential, you gotta do more.

I fail to see how tri training is any different than any other sport in that respect.

I don't think you've reached the right conclusion about last year.  It's likely not any "aerobic carryover" that made you run faster in those tris.  It was bike fitness, plain and simple.

I would say your tri PRs came from better bike fitness, which allowed you to then have more ability to "access" your run capabilities.

Your marathon PR came from "upping mileage safely and considerably" along with the growing base.

It's not the same as saying you can run faster (stand-alone) by running less and biking more.