weight trainign while in race season

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Coach

10487

Boston, MA

Subject: RE: weight trainign while in race season

Bioteknik - 2009-07-15 10:09 PM and you missed the tongue in cheek comment due to your obvioius bias against weight training,

That's an incorrect assumption; I am not against WL, I am against inacurrate claims such as WL improves performance or helps you avoid injuries. We have debated this 1000 times but there is no conclusive evidence indicating WL does any of that and while there is no conclusive evidence indicating it doesn't the available literature is like 3-4 to 1 against WL doing what people claim, that is for every study showing some benefit there are 3 or 4 replicating those conditions and proving there isn't. Until there is I will continue to question those claiming it is the key to their success in the form of anecdotal evidence.

In the end if athletes want to WL because they enjoy it, for vanity or whatever, that's cool and the gang and I would say go nuts! They should do what makes them happy, keep them motivated and make training fun. But for those beginners seeking to maximize their training gains and become better in triathlons I think it is good for them to know some of the statements thrown around are nothing but anecdotal evidence and by presenting the opposite point and information/data then they can make up their own mind as to what's best for them. Athletes tend to always assume one specific variable is what allowed them to perform better and they hang their hats on that claiming that's the key for their success when most likely there is a combination of many things contributing to it.

I also have said this many many times, ST can be achieved sport specific and there are good reasons or circumstances to include ST on an athlete's training (even some WL), however to do so to improve performance is not one of them. What's entertaining is that some of my athletes do in fact WL. I have not bias against WL but against false claims; really I am all about trying to get the best performance for my athletes' schedules (time available) and mine as athlete. If WL would provide that I would be all over it even if personally I don't enjoy it, for instance when I started tri-ing I used to hate running and last year I dreaded cycling. In fact I've tried WL before without any noticeable results and currently through the year I include sport specific ST. Since I haven't been able to swim much lately which is where I get the most ST for upper body I am doing ST to get me back in the pool and because any training is better than no training.

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Veteran

312

Bessemer, AL

Subject: RE: weight trainign while in race season

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Expert

1123

Falls Church, VA

Subject: RE: weight trainign while in race season

JorgeM - 2009-07-16 9:20 AM

Bioteknik - 2009-07-15 10:09 PM and you missed the tongue in cheek comment due to your obvioius bias against weight training,

That's an incorrect assumption; I am not against WL, I am against inacurrate claims such as WL improves performance or helps you avoid injuries. We have debated this 1000 times but there is no conclusive evidence indicating WL does any of that and while there is no conclusive evidence indicating it doesn't the available literature is like 3-4 to 1 against WL doing what people claim, that is for every study showing some benefit there are 3 or 4 replicating those conditions and proving there isn't. Until there is I will continue to question those claiming it is the key to their success in the form of anecdotal evidence.

In the end if athletes want to WL because they enjoy it, for vanity or whatever, that's cool and the gang and I would say go nuts! They should do what makes them happy, keep them motivated and make training fun. But for those beginners seeking to maximize their training gains and become better in triathlons I think it is good for them to know some of the statements thrown around are nothing but anecdotal evidence and by presenting the opposite point and information/data then they can make up their own mind as to what's best for them. Athletes tend to always assume one specific variable is what allowed them to perform better and they hang their hats on that claiming that's the key for their success when most likely there is a combination of many things contributing to it.

I also have said this many many times, ST can be achieved sport specific and there are good reasons or circumstances to include ST on an athlete's training (even some WL), however to do so to improve performance is not one of them. What's entertaining is that some of my athletes do in fact WL. I have not bias against WL but against false claims; really I am all about trying to get the best performance for my athletes' schedules (time available) and mine as athlete. If WL would provide that I would be all over it even if personally I don't enjoy it, for instance when I started tri-ing I used to hate running and last year I dreaded cycling. In fact I've tried WL before without any noticeable results and currently through the year I include sport specific ST. Since I haven't been able to swim much lately which is where I get the most ST for upper body I am doing ST to get me back in the pool and because any training is better than no training.

and you type a nice long message about the topic when all i was doing was joking about something I knew you were never going to do.

You're reading waaaay too much in to a simple tonge and cheek comment.

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Champion

6046

New York, NY

Subject: RE: weight trainign while in race season

Bioteknik - 2009-07-16 9:54 AM

JorgeM - 2009-07-16 9:20 AM

Bioteknik - 2009-07-15 10:09 PM and you missed the tongue in cheek comment due to your obvioius bias against weight training,

That's an incorrect assumption; I am not against WL, I am against inacurrate claims such as WL improves performance or helps you avoid injuries. We have debated this 1000 times but there is no conclusive evidence indicating WL does any of that and while there is no conclusive evidence indicating it doesn't the available literature is like 3-4 to 1 against WL doing what people claim, that is for every study showing some benefit there are 3 or 4 replicating those conditions and proving there isn't. Until there is I will continue to question those claiming it is the key to their success in the form of anecdotal evidence.

In the end if athletes want to WL because they enjoy it, for vanity or whatever, that's cool and the gang and I would say go nuts! They should do what makes them happy, keep them motivated and make training fun. But for those beginners seeking to maximize their training gains and become better in triathlons I think it is good for them to know some of the statements thrown around are nothing but anecdotal evidence and by presenting the opposite point and information/data then they can make up their own mind as to what's best for them. Athletes tend to always assume one specific variable is what allowed them to perform better and they hang their hats on that claiming that's the key for their success when most likely there is a combination of many things contributing to it.

I also have said this many many times, ST can be achieved sport specific and there are good reasons or circumstances to include ST on an athlete's training (even some WL), however to do so to improve performance is not one of them. What's entertaining is that some of my athletes do in fact WL. I have not bias against WL but against false claims; really I am all about trying to get the best performance for my athletes' schedules (time available) and mine as athlete. If WL would provide that I would be all over it even if personally I don't enjoy it, for instance when I started tri-ing I used to hate running and last year I dreaded cycling. In fact I've tried WL before without any noticeable results and currently through the year I include sport specific ST. Since I haven't been able to swim much lately which is where I get the most ST for upper body I am doing ST to get me back in the pool and because any training is better than no training.

and you type a nice long message about the topic when all i was doing was joking about something I knew you were never going to do.

You're reading waaaay too much in to a simple tonge and cheek comment.

because he really is SO biased AGAINST strength training if anyone says anything remotely positive he HAS to bash on it.

As a physician who deals with LOTS of athletes, the only ones who seem to get injured are the ones who do no strength training. N of 1 I know but back in college when I did varsity fencing and skiing and in HS with skiing and soccer I got injured ALL the time. Now I do WAY more volume than ever and no injuries. Works for me, works for my patients, works for every major league sport.

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Pro

3906

Libertyville, IL

Subject: RE: weight trainign while in race season

TriToy - 2009-07-16 9:06 AM

Bioteknik - 2009-07-16 9:54 AM

JorgeM - 2009-07-16 9:20 AM

Bioteknik - 2009-07-15 10:09 PM and you missed the tongue in cheek comment due to your obvioius bias against weight training,

That's an incorrect assumption; I am not against WL, I am against inacurrate claims such as WL improves performance or helps you avoid injuries. We have debated this 1000 times but there is no conclusive evidence indicating WL does any of that and while there is no conclusive evidence indicating it doesn't the available literature is like 3-4 to 1 against WL doing what people claim, that is for every study showing some benefit there are 3 or 4 replicating those conditions and proving there isn't. Until there is I will continue to question those claiming it is the key to their success in the form of anecdotal evidence.

In the end if athletes want to WL because they enjoy it, for vanity or whatever, that's cool and the gang and I would say go nuts! They should do what makes them happy, keep them motivated and make training fun. But for those beginners seeking to maximize their training gains and become better in triathlons I think it is good for them to know some of the statements thrown around are nothing but anecdotal evidence and by presenting the opposite point and information/data then they can make up their own mind as to what's best for them. Athletes tend to always assume one specific variable is what allowed them to perform better and they hang their hats on that claiming that's the key for their success when most likely there is a combination of many things contributing to it.

I also have said this many many times, ST can be achieved sport specific and there are good reasons or circumstances to include ST on an athlete's training (even some WL), however to do so to improve performance is not one of them. What's entertaining is that some of my athletes do in fact WL. I have not bias against WL but against false claims; really I am all about trying to get the best performance for my athletes' schedules (time available) and mine as athlete. If WL would provide that I would be all over it even if personally I don't enjoy it, for instance when I started tri-ing I used to hate running and last year I dreaded cycling. In fact I've tried WL before without any noticeable results and currently through the year I include sport specific ST. Since I haven't been able to swim much lately which is where I get the most ST for upper body I am doing ST to get me back in the pool and because any training is better than no training.

and you type a nice long message about the topic when all i was doing was joking about something I knew you were never going to do.

You're reading waaaay too much in to a simple tonge and cheek comment.

because he really is SO biased AGAINST strength training if anyone says anything remotely positive he HAS to bash on it.

As a physician who deals with LOTS of athletes, the only ones who seem to get injured are the ones who do no strength training. N of 1 I know but back in college when I did varsity fencing and skiing and in HS with skiing and soccer I got injured ALL the time. Now I do WAY more volume than ever and no injuries. Works for me, works for my patients, works for every major league sport.

To be clear since a few are not making the differentiation or at least misstating it, I think everyone agrees that strength training is essential to improvement. Jorge even makes a point of emphasizing weight training vs strength training in his long post. And that might be where the weights camp might be missing his points. Hills and intervals will make you stronger too, and in the context that you will need them. And guess what? There are folks in here proving that it works too. So do whatever you like, but you can do plenty to build your strength without touching a weight.

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Master

4119

Toronto

Bronze member

Subject: RE: weight trainign while in race season

jeff525w - 2009-07-15 8:59 PM Exactly! That was what had sparked this thread for me in the first place. It had irritated me for a total stranger to criticize my training methods, who has never seen me train, just because they are different than his. Everyone had good posts so thanks for the insight and I mainly come from a background of sports that always included ST and I like to do it. I dont see how a couple sets of pulls and push ups will make me a worse triathlete. Oh well either way I have had a blast this past year training for these races and I am planning to improve as time goes on. As long as it is fun than than I will find a way to do well at it.

Oh jeez - there's so much controversy. LOL! there are a few topics you will see hotly debated - Bricks, FIRST running program, strength training. do what makes sense to you

I haven't done a ton of strength training but coming from a previously pure running background I have done the hill repeats to build strength and it's does build running specific strength. But i do have to think about strength training is often being used to treat injuries - when I had ITBS my PT used targeted strength training to get to the areas that running hadn't addressed. Strengthening my core and hips has put that injury to bed for more than two years. Of course we also did stretching and massage as well. And although tri-sport specific strength is wonderful we all lead day to day lives that can benefit from more rounded approach.

Anyway, strength had not been a part of my regular routine in my pure running phase until late last year. I just picked up a BT plan to get me to an oly race that usually has 2 ST sessions per week and I am enjoying it. Who knows if there will be any performance improvements? For biking and swimming I have a big learning curve where improvements are likely anyway but I do feel I already have a stronger core which is good for all three sports - and I these like workouts that are so different from my s/b/r routine.

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Coach

10487

Boston, MA

Subject: RE: weight trainign while in race season

TriToy - 2009-07-16 9:06 AM

because he really is SO biased AGAINST strength training if anyone says anything remotely positive he HAS to bash on it.

As a physician who deals with LOTS of athletes, the only ones who seem to get injured are the ones who do no strength training. N of 1 I know but back in college when I did varsity fencing and skiing and in HS with skiing and soccer I got injured ALL the time. Now I do WAY more volume than ever and no injuries. Works for me, works for my patients, works for every major league sport.

LOL, you crack me up. Maybe next year if you join BTT you can tell me all about it your experiences as a physician, I'll be looking forward to learning lots from you.

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Champion

6046

New York, NY

Subject: RE: weight trainign while in race season

JorgeM - 2009-07-16 11:32 AM

TriToy - 2009-07-16 9:06 AM

because he really is SO biased AGAINST strength training if anyone says anything remotely positive he HAS to bash on it.

As a physician who deals with LOTS of athletes, the only ones who seem to get injured are the ones who do no strength training. N of 1 I know but back in college when I did varsity fencing and skiing and in HS with skiing and soccer I got injured ALL the time. Now I do WAY more volume than ever and no injuries. Works for me, works for my patients, works for every major league sport.

LOL, you crack me up. Maybe next year if you join BTT you can tell me all about it your experiences as a physician, I'll be looking forward to learning lots from you.

I deal with BTT folks all the time.

Ali Winslow and Vic, who are BTT coaches, believe in strength training.

Clearly no strength training works for you - you are having great success this season, but you seem to interpret all the data vastly different than any physician, trainer, physiologist or coach I have seen.

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Coach

10487

Boston, MA

Subject: RE: weight trainign while in race season

TriToy - 2009-07-16 2:31 PM I deal with BTT folks all the time. Ali Winslow and Vic, who are BTT coaches, believe in strength training.

.

Good for them, as coaches I think it is good to have our beliefs although it is also good to base those on available current research. I only heard of Ali and her athletes have good results so I am happy for them. Though it is not uncommon for coaches to have different training beliefs/approaches, even those you might work close to; that's just normal.

TriToy - 2009-07-16 2:31 PM
Clearly no strength training works for you - you are having great success this season, but you seem to interpret all the data vastly different than any physician, trainer, physiologist or coach I have seen.

That's certainly odd, I've learned and enjoy listening to USAT Elite coaches like Perham, popular ones like Sutton or Filliol (who coach IM/70.3/Olympic champions), from local sports MDs like Vorderer, physicians/coaches like Skiba (coach of IM/70.3 champions) or exercise physiologists like Coggan or Coyle. All of them seem to interpret the data in a similar way I do, in particular since I've learned from them things like: WL is not a factor to improve performance or to prevent injuries*, ST can be accomplished sport specific, chronic injuries are in general caused by training load mismanagement, WL and other forms of ST can be great tools for injury rehabilitation, when s/b/r is not possible any training is better than no training, etc. Maybe they are mistaken and I've learned from the wrong people?

In addition you seemed to missed my posts on this thread otherwise you would know I do ST sport specific on a regular basis, I do not hit the gym to lift weighst though as I don't see the value on it in particular given my time constraints, personal preferences and goals. But training withour WL not only works for me; some of my/our athletes are winning races or going to Kona/Clearwater without touching weights; although I know that probably is not too impressive for you but I can also cite pro athletes (and champions) like some of the TBB team, Chrissie, etc. all who have succeded without WL if that makes any difference.

But as I said on my previous post, I am looking forward to learn from you; maybe you have experience or info/data that will change my mind as some of the people I mentioned above has helped me shape my coaching beliefs.

* Plyos would be the exception as there is evidence the addition of this can improve running economy however training background, current fitness and years of running play more important and significant role on this...

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