Nailing the IRONMAN Marathon.. (Page 2)

For whatever reason, it isn't hard for me.  This is what I was referring to before.  When I get off the bike, even after a very hard or very long ride, my turnover and pace feel slow but whenever I measure them, they are faster than expected -- my cadence is faster than I would have guessed by feel, and my pace is faster than I thought it was.  That's my real problem -- going too hard right off the bike, because 'too hard' actually, in that moment, feels 'too slow'.  I blew up in my first HIM run for this and other reasons.  I'm not saying that running well off the bike is 'easy', but that starting the run strong isn't a problem for me.  Finishing strong?  Well, that's another story...

Experior
you and I are members of the same club. but this year's goal is to NAIL the IM mary!~

(Obviously speaking for myself, not Bryan):

* A lot of nutrition problems show up much later than mile 10-15 on the run.  More like mile 20.  (I saw nobody in obvious nutritional distress on the bike at my IM.  I saw maybe just one or two in the first 15 miles of the run.  Around mile 20 the festival of puking etc. began.)  So what works for you in that workout is not necessarily right (though what doesn't work for you in the workout is probably wrong, so you've probably learned something).

* Truly simulating what your nutritional condition will be in a race is going to be pretty hard in a workout.  You didn't taper for your workout.  You didn't do the swim before.  There's not much adrenalin involved.  The weather may or may not be similar.  Etc.

My (very inexpert) advice is to determine your calorie needs more or less theoretically, based on what your gut can absorb NOT based on what you'll burn -- you cannot replace everything that you burn (and it isn't all carbs anyway).  And then drink to thirst, not according to a pre-determined schedule and amount.  Yes, practice this -- you will at least learn what is less likely and more likely to work.  Keep it as simple as possible, and have a back-up plan.

There are some pretty good threads here about nutrition, which you might find useful.  Here's an example of one with some good information.  There are others.

Ive been thinking about this quote I used on my signature from you Bryancd. Its driving me to ride harder, but then I got to step back for a second. I wonder where the place is for LSD rides if you are always training fast.

Are you a proponent of training less and training fast, ala the FIRST program from Furman U? I think you have said in the past that all workouts should be purposeful and you should approach them with proper rest. But are you saying to do away with LSD in the three disciplines of tri?

I mean we are training three systems here, aren't we (i.e. mitochondrial with LSD, threshold with tempos, and VO2 max with intervals)?

Well said. I would only add that once you determine your caloric needs, cut it by about 1/4. GI distress due to over eating as ruined far more IM's than being under caloried or even hydrated. It's usually pace/fitness/too many calories or fluid that ruin an IM.

It all depends on how we define LSD. When I suggest making long rides at IM pace or making all workouts quality and getting sufficient rest, it's all in an effort to elimante "garbage miles" from your training. We have so little time to train, we need to maximize the sessions. Biking sitting up and enjoying the scen is great fro the off season, not for your IM build. We should always be able to ride long at our IM effort, otherwise our planned IM effort is too hard and needs to be adjusted lower.

I found that a very interesting read, thanks for posting.

I also have never had a problem running off the bike so I'm not sure the transition runs would be much use to me.

I think what he says about the bike is good (or at least it works very well for me).  Lots of 100+ rides and fairly long back to back rides as well as an all day ride really help with cycling fitness and help keep your legs in good shape throughout the whole ride.

I only ran 3 times a week last year for IM France and it worked very well.  Any more and I'd have most likely become injured.  I don't think it is the key to a fast IM though and this year my aim is to run more frequently.

Has anyone tried a metric IM before?  I like the idea and think I might try it - not to dial in nutrition (I know what I need now) but I think it will act as both a great fitness and mental boost in the latter part of IM training.

No, but I do a HIM six to 8 weeks before the IM. I'm racing in Boise in mid June before IMLP in late July. It is a great boost and helps dial in the equipement.

Edited by brucemorgan 2010-01-12 10:46 AM

I was hoping to do a HIM as preparation too but the one in the UK was sold out when I started putting together my training plan.

To run a fast IM marathon I thinkt he key is running at our faster than race pace at the back end of your long runs. Doing a fast tempo for the last few miles of a long run can really imrpove your speed. My coach sends me out on an 18 mile run and tells me to tun the last 3 miles "as fast as you can"! It's misery but it wroks!

I like the sound of that.  I'll try that out in a few weeks time I think once I have a bit more run mileage under my belt. 

Easy tiger! You have plenty of time, this is for later when you are getting closer to the race.

Oh, OK.  I guess I'll keep the pace down for now then  

X2. I have done runs similar to this and have also taken it a step further (for half IM training) and run 10 and hit the track for another 3 before I ran another 2 miles home. Putting an effort on the tail of a long run is a great workout.