Thecaptin's "BarryP off Slowtwitch" "offseason" running plan (Page 2)

As a swimmer through college, I can tell you that NONE of us do swimmer volume.  Not even close.  My normal WEEKLY volume in college was close to 50K yards.  Think about that for a min...we all book 30K in volume and it is a huge month.  A normal month was 200K.  So, there is a huge difference.  You want to swim sub- 5 min, 500...you must have this kind of volume.

Back to our reality.  How to get the biggest bang for your limited time...I say intervals and drills.  Challenging intervals.  hard ladders, 10 x 100 will 10-15 sec rest, etc.  I have been swimming less and less the last two years thanks to Brown dog.  I love to swim and was adding unproductive stress.  So, I started to focus on less yards, hard intervals.  I basically swim the same times as when I was doing twice the volume.  My advantage is good stroke mechanics.  This all works for ME.  

"So, I started to focus on less yards, hard intervals.  I basically swim the same times as when I was doing twice the volume."

Matt Dixon would love you for that comment ;-) . With limited time and your swimming background I would concur, you can really limit your time in the pool and be just fine. However those of us that didn't grow up swimming need to put in a little more work. But a mix of things is good, aka form work, swim volume, and swim intensity.

I think that's one of the key factors of the BarryP plan. You get the frequency, you build a good aerobic base, and then you get some tempo/hill work for some speed/strength boost. A lot of people will rush through that base period which can limit your overall potential.

Good stuff here, keep it coming!

I often wonder why guys like thecaptin relatively struggle on the run. I think their base is just weak. no offense cappy. i also think the longer the course the less you can hide it.

i think those of us that struggle on the swim do so for a different reason. i think its technique deficits. i have tons of aerobic base but i didnt start swimming until 5 years ago. i can swim 2 mins per 100 OWS all day long. i think the swim is less able to be hidden on short course.

No offense taken...and I agree up to a point on the swim.  Better technique is relative concept.  Incremental improvement happens over volume, not just a few seasons of better technique and some coaching. 

On the run, keep in mind two things with my craptastic finishes, I suck at bike pacing and more than likely burn too many matches relative to my actual ability over the whole distance.  If I would be more controlled on the bike, I would run better.  Lastly, I have a major limiter - turf toe in both big toes.  So, not all of my run issues are run base.  Self inflected pacing issues and permanent injury are playing their part.  I have a feeling others that are not getting run results have a story line that is out side of run base issues.

I would add that the captin also has a strong cycling background, and cyclist generally go hard in almost every work out. 

Running isn't the same.

an oft shared and frequently cited blog on the topic by a guy who knows his stuff

http://stevefleck.blogspot.com/2010/11/running-frequency.html

Good read.

Thanks

I'll go ahead and disagree with you on this one... again haha.

1) A lot of people avoid a lot of volume on the run due to the high impact of the activity which is increased by a bad running form, which then in turn leads to an increasing risk for injury. Which is why a form change might be necessary if they plan to also become faster. The speed work helps with some form issues but I see people all the time with horrid run form, that if they decided to increase their mileage significantly they would without a doubt get injured if they failed to correct that form.

2) Form is important with every sport and shouldn't be ignored by any means. Same deal goes with Frequency, Volume, and Consistency... Those 3 factors will produce your greatest results.

If you're running 50+ miles a week and tossing down pretty solid times but your swim is crap then you should consider dropping the run mileage down around 10 miles and that free's up over an hour that you can schedule a swim lesson to improve your swimming form, then add volume, and then intensity which will help you far greater in the long run i.e. energy conservation, getting on the bike with people of your equal ability (on the bike), so you don't have to burn as many matches in order to make up the time gap that you swam yourself into.

Harv: yes the above is a prime example of you, however run volume is key through Jan and Mountain Mist, but making your limited swim time the most effective possible right now is key... so swim lessons and better structured workouts (totally on my end there).

All I'm saving is the Frequency and Consistency which will lead to greater Volume and then Intensity (speed/tempo/other "fetch" words) can be applied to all 3 sports, NOT just running. Swimming/Biking are actually the two you can do more of with less of an injury risk and that's why most individuals don't run 35+ miles a week.

now i am disagreeing with you more than rocketman. 

nothing personal but ask thecaptin or any other triathlete that gets passed in the bike or run which they'd rather be better at (swim or the other two) if they had to choose.  heck, even ask yourself, as your swimming is a strength yet you still spend an excess of time doing it while your bike lags.

if we are talking about time crunched folks, there is simply no choice. if we are talking about long course folks, there is simply no choice. emphasize running and cycling. the way for them to get faster is to build the base on all three but especially the latter two legs. focus on technique work moreso on the swim. a guy like me can swim yard after yard and not gain much in time, but put in some time on the other two and you see substantive time gains.

FWIW i am sure you can find plenty of running experts that say changing running form is idiotic and unnatural and increases injury potential too. i dont dally in this literature like you but I am a former single sport runner who recalls vaguely the argument against trying to change running form.

I'm in the don't change form camp.  I used to have pretty bad form, but once I upped the mileage it smoothed itself out.  Sure, my form is not perfect, but it's better than most.  The key is my body did it gradually so I avoided injury.

btw, the importance of the swim changes with your ability and time goal:

Crappy BOP swimmer:  Need to swim a ton and work on form.  Working way to hard in the water.

MOP:  You just need to be smooth and under control.  Bike and run is where it's at.

FOP:  The swim is very important, and you need to have great form and high volume.

Here is another article which I think supports Shanks and Rocketman as regards swimming; however, I wonder if brown dog would agree the same for short vs long course with the divisions above (BOP<MOP< FOP)?

http://www.active.com/triathlon/Articles/Break-the-Rules-to-Swim-Fast.htm

From the article:

So, most better swimmers work on a stroke that will be efficient and successful for 400 meters or less.  Should we all work on that stroke when we are planning on swimming 3800 meters? 

I'm pretty sure this is one of the mistakes most of us are making when we train for the longer races.  The IM swim is about efficiency.  Sprint swim might be something totally different though.

Agree.  I think the BOP/MOP/FOP distinction is the best way to say it for IM distance races.  

FOP swimmers want to groove their fast stroke to gain time in the swim.  MOP folks want to groove their "forever" pace so that they exit the water without having lost places and feeling good, while BOP folks need to work on developing a "forever" pace so that completion of the swim does not leave them exhausted.  So, following this model, while it would benefit me to work on getting faster, my time (like yours and phat's) is probably best used grooving the forever pace and working on stuff like decreasing stroke count, improving body position/making a smaller torpedo, etc.

That said, and further to the idea behind my swim challenge post,  some swimming is better than no swimming and if speed drills (or IMs) make you happy and more likely to show up at the pool, they are more beneficial than the LSD swim you don't show up to do.

just noticed thecaptin wrote in his inspire to alltom1:

"On running, this slow stuff is really paying off."

The next line wasn't "That Phat is a really smart guy"?

Agree.  My marital bless is impacted by 3,4 hours rides.  2 hours runs are no problem to fit in the day.

By way, I am headed towards 100+ miles month.  In the past, I could get to 80 for 2 months, then fall apart.  With the new approach, I am feeling stronger with each week and no nicks or leading indicators of injury.  I am happy with it so far.  I hope I say the same thing when I reach the next bump up in mileage and keep it up for another 4 months or more.

from thecaptin to me this weekend:

"really good run today...nice to leg the legs go every now and then...run focus is paying off already!

thecaptin · 2011-11-12 10:13 AM"

Hope you all are cranking it up in whatever you are focusing on. I need to get swimming more. On second thought, why bother!

UPDATE:  1 month into the program.  6 days a week doing 2.5-5-2.5-5-2.5-7.5 or 25 miles   100 miles in 4 weeks.

I did not think this was possible.  I have always wanted to break the century mark!  I am injury free and starting to feel a real base developing.  While keeping my HR in Z2, my pace is starting to rise.  I am not pushing it, just can hold a slightly faster pace over the whole week now vs. week 1.  I am going to run this mileage 1 or 2 more weeks and bump it up to 30 miles per week.  I am convinced that if I stay with this approach 3 or 4 more months, my racing run will be completely different.