Protien Shakes or Chocolate Milk? (Page 2)

I am with Bryan on this one.  Coconut milk certainly isn't the only way to get there -- it's Bryan's way, and it is a decent part of a healthy meal if one wants to go that way.  There are other ways.

The studies that concern choc milk and various recovery formulas (e.g., Recoverite, which is a name thought up by a brilliant marketing person, by the way) are generally flawed in at least two ways.  (I don't mean that as pieces of science they are flawed -- I mean that they are probably irrelevant to the actual issue faced by actual triathletes.)  First, they almost always compare choc milk to very limited alternative recovery options (typically, commercial recovery drinks) or to just water.  There are other things available from your local mega-mart (Bryan mentioned one).  Second, they measure results in a way that is relevant to almost nobody.  (For example, by doing some sort of very intense test a few hours after the original bout of exercise.  How many of us train that way???)

Here's an example, and I hate to pick on this study, because there are tons of them, but here it is.

Reference:  Karp, Jason R., et al (2006), "Chocolate Milk as a Post-Exercise Recovery Aid".  International Journal of Sport Nutrition and Exercise Metabolism, 16: 78-91.

Abstract:  Nine male, endurance-trained cyclists performed an interval workout followed by 4h of recovery, and a subsequent endurance trial to exhaustion at 70% VO2max, on three separate days.  Immediately following the ?rst exercise bout and 2h of recovery, subjects drank isovolumic amounts of chocolate milk, ?uid replacement drink (FR), or carbohydrate replacement drink (CR), in a single-blind, randomized design. Carbohydrate content was equivalent for chocolate milk and CR. Time to exhaustion (TTE), average heart rate (HR), rating of perceived exertion (RPE), and total work (WT) for the endurance exercise were compared between trials.  TTE and WT were signi?cantly greater for chocolate milk and FR trials compared to CR trial. The results of this study suggest that chocolate milk is an effective recovery aid between two exhausting exercise bouts.

I've got nothing against this study -- in fact, they summarize the results pretty accurately.  But both of my points are illustrated pretty clearly here (and in many other studies).  Read the article if you don't believe me (http://oakbrooksc.com/docs/stager_chocmilk_study.pdf).  First, they didn't consider other options, such as just eating a normal, easily digestible, well-balanced meal.  Second, and probably more important, they are measuring 'recovery' in terms of one's ability to follow an interval workout with another very hard workout just 4 hours later.  How many of us train this way?  How important to our long-term training success is it that we be able to train quite hard twice in a day, four hours apart?  It isn't hard to imagine that the best way to get through two hard workouts close together in time is to load yourself up with crap calories that are assimilated as quickly as possible, and that many generally important nutritional elements of a good diet can be ignored in these circumstances -- think about what we 'eat' during an IM race, for goodness' sake.  But what does that (probable) fact have to do with the day-in, day-out 'recovery' of someone who is following a normal training plan, with workout sessions typically separated by 6-36 hours, and rarely if ever following a hard session with another hard session?

bryancd - 2012-03-18 11:26 PM Water, not milk, Mike. I actually haven't tried coconut milk or oil, although I hear they have benefits as well. Problem is, the wife hates coconut, so I just use the water as a post workout drink.

Yeah.  It's late.  Water.  Actually, I hate coconut milk.  But I like the coconut water.

Train in a fasted state + enough water/calories to survive the workout + water/real food recovery = 15lbs down since 1/1/12 + bike/run improvements. 

I'll take it.

ETA: As mentioned before, heed the advice of the annoyingly lean/fast people around here.  They know.

I did and you are the one originally making the claim, so I asked you to back up the babble...  I know many studies out there are biased, for instance the pro chocolate for your health studies are funded by Mars candies - the company that likes to put artificial transfat in place of real chocolate because real chocolate is costly. I went to the same school jeff volek went to, one who has done many of the whey+ carb studies:  http://www.nutritionexpress.com/article+index/protein/whey+protein... guy weight in around 175 and squatted / deadlifted 600lb in competition

As both Mike & Bryan stated already, this is a non-issue for most AG triathletes.  Few of them are doing the volume or quality of work that would necessitate the advantages that one might get from that type of recovery fuel.  So, it's not clear there are any meaningful benefits to them and, in fact, they might be better off just focusing on eating healthier foods.  I hardly think there's anything earth-shattering about this, but many people are convinced they need to have a 'recovery' snack/drink after every workout they do.

FWIW, despite the aforementioned short-comings, I do enjoy a glass of chocolate milk every now and again after a long or hard workout (once a month, maybe less?).  And I will not be buying any coconut water despite it being far more 'natural'.  Or any other recovery drinks, for that matter. 

dp

Why?  Did you go to the same school too?

I mentioned those numbers because they are equative effort to the slow twitch world of a 2:0x marathon..

I enjoy them both occasionally for different reasons

This is on the same lines of drug toxicity studies - to test for discernible differences without a huge, expensive study the researchers had to drive the conditions to an extreme.    I don't have a problem with that type of study design.  The problem much more typical of these studies is way too few participants to draw conclusions from.  This one is no different - nine athletes is simply too small.

600lb at that body weight is considered an elite lift as is a 2:0x marathon is an elite time.

interesting to read the comments on chocolate milk and Recoverite.

I use both A LOT.

Basically chocolate milk works for a quickie solution when I come back tired from a workout. I add in Recoverite, and Muscle Milk powder.

Probably overkill on the protein, which needs some checking into. However, my main concern is the constant training load makes it imperative to have something going in soon after the workouts.

of course there is no substitute for a quality balanced meal of real food !

I think Scout's point was that the nutritional wants/needs of a power lifter are extremely different than the nutritional needs of a triathlete or marathoner...

...and a website advertising supplements with the vast majority of articles written by the same person isn't the most reliable source of information.

All his studies are backed up on pubmed, It was google search. Anyways, to me nutritional macro/micronutrient ratio needs do not differ to much, it is just the marathoner will need more fuel replenished over time.  Main difference will be size of the muscle cell and what is stored in it for fuel. Even macca went to bodybuilders for help.

Another side note , while on chocolate milk - be aware of pseudo chocolate products, such as  "yoohoo" is not chocolate milk - they like to substitute the expensive chocolate with partially hydrogenated oil, just like chocolate protein bars use fractionated palm oil.