America - not the greates country in the world? (Page 2)

Checking a history book is irrelevant in considering what the world would be like if America had never existed.  If there wasn't a revolt that started this country, we have no idea what the world would be like.  You just can't say one way or the other.  It's a wash.  Now with that being said...

There are moments in history (since we do exist) that American actions helped others around the world.  Many are grand moments like storming the beaches.

There are also moments in our history that aren't so grand and did in fact ruin other countries and make people worse off.  The slave trade comes to mind.

Would WWII have happened without America?  That's not saying we're responsible for it, just that the make up of the citizenry in Europe might have been totally different and not allowed for a Hitler to come to power if we were never a country.  No way of knowing, though.

Would the slave trade have existed?  Maybe, maybe on a smaller scale, maybe not at all.  Who knows, but that is definitely something that would have played out differently had we not existed.

It's easy (though sometimes gray and depends who you ask) to tell whether or not America helped or hurt a situation, but to assume the world as a whole is much better off than it would have been otherwise if we hadn't have revolted 200 years ago is a really bold assumption.  Maybe it would be, maybe it wouldn't be.  

I don't exactly think that means I have a poor opinion of my fellow citizens or am too dumb to read a history book.  But carry on.

OK, I've read enough from both side.............. ^^^^ winner^^^^

Greatest country in the world is too difficult to argue - too many variables, perceptions, etc.  Whether it is or not, I mentioned to someone last night how lucky I was to be born here in these United States as opposed to somewhere else.

Really? You need to read more. The US has been involved in more wars since the begining of the 20th C. than any other nation. And all but a few were wars of agression to further US strategic interests (WWII is a notable exception).  Here are a few select examples:

1. Iraq - Iraq was no more unpleasant than any other developing-world dictatorship before 2003. Since then It turned into a hell hole. Whatever the motivation was for war - access to oil fields, access to building contracts for Haliburton, to build a strategic base in MidEast, or simply to get back at a guy who made daddy look bad (GHB) - the war was not motivated by the desire to help the people of Iraq.

2. Vietnam, Grenada, Laos/Cambodia, and any other place where the US decided to impose the 'right' type of government, whether the people wanted it or not.  In reality this had nothing to do with protecting the local people but with maintaining a strategic military foothold against the soviets. The right thing would have been to let these places go commie and to find out how unpleasant that gov't was. Then let them overthrow it lor change it like the Poles, Czechs or Hungarians did.

3. Algeria - in 1991 the Algerians held free & democratic elections and elected a conservative, religious gov't. The new Islamist gov't was not pro-west.  With backing from the US, the old secular Government, friendly to the US (as in "go ahead and drill for oil here") held a coup-d'etat and took back power. The US quickly recognized them as a legitimate government - blatantly against the democratic wishes of the people of Algeria. A bloody civil war followed that Algeria has not fully recoverd from.

4. Honduras - early 20th C. - the US gov't, backing the economic interests of the Dole Fruit Corp., orchestrated coups to install a pupet regieme that would allow US corporations like Dole to set up what were effectively slave plantations throughout the country.

5. Cuba and latin America - 1898 - The US faked an explosion on one of their ships in Havana habor so they could have a pretext to attack Spanish Cuba. The real purpose was a expansionist land grab - the US saw an opportunity to take some good real estate from a weak Spain.  Cuba was seen as terrirory next-door, Panama was perfect for a profitable canal, Philipines/Guam made for good strategic locations for Pacific expansion. The pretext was to liberate Cuba. The reality was that Cuba became a miserable near-slave like hell-hole that was litteraly under the control of well connected US corportations and tycoons. Since it was outside the US - people were not protected under US law. And Cuban law was dictated by the US owned busineses. It was no wonder the Cubans revolted 50 years leter under Castro. They actually saw that bearded a$$hole as a better alternative to the US controlled hell.  The US reponse to this was just a bad - with an embargo on Cuba that makes it people suffer while the US has been a good business partner of bigger commie nations (i.e. China) 

6. Haiti - the US helped back the Coup-d'Etat by Papa Doc Duvalier because he was an anti-communist and openend up Haiti to US resource companies (mainily logging).  Duvalier was an exceptionally cruel monster but this was in line with the US / CIA policy that it was better to have  a murderous monster in power that was under US control than to have a competent, fair and strong leader that did not do was the US wanted.

7. The nations of the indigenous people of America (i.e. Injuns) - wiped out in what would have been called a genocide, had it been perpertrated by someone not currently as powerful as the US.

I'm not saying the US is evil. It has done lots of good for the world as well. But in general the US foreign policy is 100% based on self-interest.

Agreed. I have been abroad to many places, and I am very grateful to live in this country. 

Yep, pretty much.

Maybe so.. but thats not an "American Mindset"... you've just described the human condition. 

Gonna respond to these one at a time.  But the overarching theme was better-off or not right?

1. Iraq - Nevermind the fact that Iraq, like most of the ME are countries created by the UK Government where they put-together people who have never been together in history and who ethnically despise each other (Kurds, Sunnis, Shia).  Saddam Hussein gassed his own people (Kurds, Shiites) and attacked 3 of his neighbors before we ever invaded his country.  He also shot at our planes that were part of a UN-mandated no-fly-zone non-stop from the beginning of hostilities in the Gulf War until we destroyed his forces in 2003.  His actions as a ruler justified the invasion and overthrow of his government.  The long-term will show this to be a true statement.  Baghdad was the "Jewel of the Middle East" before he took power and it will be again.  If your rebuttal was "well you put him in power" then my re-rebuttal is "Then it's our job to remove him when he gets out of hand."  I still blame the UK for forming a country that clearly doesn't fit.  It should be 3 different countries.  Kurdish to the north, Sunni to the central, and Shiite to the Basra region (which may as well be part of Iran).  Bottom line: Iraq is better off now than they were pre-2003.

2. Vietnam, Grenada, Laos/Cambodia, and any other place where the US decided to impose the 'right' type of government, whether the people wanted it or not.  Let's drop Grenada out of this because we invaded Grenada after Cuba had already invaded it and planned to land Soviet TU-95 bombers there.  The invasion and withdrawal took less than a month and the Grenadians are fine.

Vietnam/Laos/Cambodia were at war for 1000 years before we started into those wars.  With the Chinese, then the Japanese, then the British, and the French, then we got into it.  You can't say we made things worse.  Ask the older Poles, Czechs or Hungarians sometime if they wish we had helped them out.  

3. Algeria - You and I have a different view of what is good for a country.  If you think a hard-line Islamist government is better than a more secular, pro-development government, then we just won't agree on the intent here. You also have a different understanding of Free and Democratic... women weren't allowed to vote in that election.  Not exactly free...

4. Honduras - early 20th C. - Combined with the one below...

5. Cuba and latin America - 1898 - The Banana Wars were fought to protect our interests and specifically to protect the Panama Canal for which 27,500 people died building it, of those, 5,609 were American.  We also bought the canal from the French so we didn't start the imposition into someone else's country.  So, you can say we fought it for corporate interests and it's hard to deny, but if the US didn't defend our assets in those countries and they were nationalized, the corporation would fail to exist.  So you go from a crappy job to no jobs for all those banana workers.  Having grown-up in Central America, I can say those areas are better when US dollars kick-in to develop them.  As opposed to areas where there are no US dollars. 

As for the Spanish-American War.  I've lived and been stationed in several former Spanish territories.  They all have established independence days from their separation from Spain.  Doesn't exactly sound like we were harming the locals as much as their earlier oppressors.

6. Haiti - We're in Haiti every 20 years, why pick on one time we were there.  Frankly, the issue with Haiti is that Haitians can't stop killing each other for some reason.  If we let them be, they'll be back at killing each other in a few years.  I think we're due to go back to Haiti here soon. 

Interjecting here - Any Latin-American Coup we've participated in, I will not accept that the US is the problem as much as their own cultures were.  When I lived in Mexico and Guatemala, we had coup-days added to the end of the calendar like you have snow days in the northern US.  It was a given that you'd miss 4-8 days of school a year due to an attempted coup.  That is just a fact of life in those countries and has been since Cortez burned his ships at Veracruz.  And he wasn't an American...

7. The nations of the indigenous people of America (i.e. Injuns) - I agree that the expansion of the US was bad for the American Indians (that's what they want to be called now I hear or by their tribal names). I think the greater crime is the continued inability of our government to cut the social programs and let them learn to take care of themselves.  

As for your comment about wars of aggression...

-WWI- We got into it because Germany was kicking the tar out of the French and British.  

-I've already discussed the Banana Wars and the Panama Canal.  

-You mentioned WWII.

-Korea was started by the North Korean invasion into South Korea.  We fought it back to the Yalu.  China got involved.  We stalemated.  Definitely not a war of aggression as we were defending the south that was already a country.

-Vietnam, again, we didn't start that fire.  We just kept throwing logs on it.  Also a defensive war protecting a country from a different country that wanted to take it over.

-Grenada, again, already invaded, we gave it back.

-Panama, Only when Noriega started to side with the Soviets in a way that put the canal at risk did we take action.  I'll give you that one as an aggression.

-Haiti Relief operations every 20 years, not aggression.

-Gulf War, Kuwait was invaded, Saddam sat ready to invade Saudi and did invade Saudi which kicked-off the ground assault. 

-Balkans Stuff- Again, a case of smashing people together that don't belong together.  We did bomb a bunch of people during the Clinton years who were committing genocide against each other.  

-Afghanistan- Response to 9/11, response to state-sponsored, state-harbored terrorism. Any country would do the same with our capability.

-Iraq War- ok, aggression.

oh. I just got to watch the sound clip. Perfect assessment of that dude. 

Oh and by the way, My husband is from Iran and he loves America.

His home country has a pretty low prison population... When they get too crowded, they just line people up and shoot them. 

I've lived abroad for most of the past 15 years, and the more time I spend outside the U.S. the more I appreciate America. Of course, once I'm home for about 3 months I start to see all of the problems with the U.S. and start itching to go abroad again. It's silly to argue whether one country is objectively better than another.

The U.S. is better than most of the world at lots of things (see, e.g. customer service, making delicious breakfasts, creating cool stuff, producing wealth), whereas we are a lot worse at other things (maternity leave, health care for the poor, serving restaurant portions that are somewhat related to caloric needs, not wasting, etc.).

I currently live in Zimbabwe, which is often rated one of the worst countries in the world by a whole range of measures, and I can say that our quality of life here is better than it was in the U.S. (although this is partially due to the fact that we are relatively wealthy [by global standards] U.S. citizens). I prefer raising my child here, because there is a much greater focus on family life, less commercialism, and affordable child care. But when my wife gives birth to our next child in a few months, we're fortunate to be able to return to a U.S. hospital where if there are any complications her chance of survival is much higher than here.

Appreciate what we do well, but don't assume we do everything well. The U.S. could learn something from probably every country in the world, and pretending that we know it all is nothing but arrogance or ignorance.

Greatest at what?  Is triathlon the best sport?  It surely has it's benefits, but isn't the best if what you want is to be good at the world lumberjack games.

This country has its issues and its shining benefits of citizenship.  We've hurt populations and saved populations.  Am I sometimes sick at the decisions made by both our politicians and the citizens that blame them for every problem without taking individual responsibility?  Sure.   But at the end of the day, America is what I call home...It allows me the life that I'm used to and comfortable with.  If some foreign power tries to take it from us I'll re-enlist or I'll be in my backyard with a rifle.

I'm a Scotsman living in the US, I moved here for work 3 years ago.  Scene set...so here's my take on this discussion:

America being the greatest or not is simply not measurable.  There are many many things in this country that stand out as world leading.  This country obviously has it's high points, why else would so many people come here to live, work, put their kids through school etc.  I am not referring to only individuals coming from "less well off" countries with few opportunities and poorer education.

America also has it's downsides, and for some what I see as a downside to this country others may not, or may see an upside.

America's impact on the world as a whole...well, the financial crisis in recent years had a huge impact globally, I don't think anyone can disagree that America had a big role in that. (*note I am NOT saying America is the cause, sole or otherwise)  Why was America's impact so big?  because the USA is so critical to International Financial stability.  Whether we are referring to the global downturn or recovery, the global financial status is linked to America and certain other financial power houses.

Other impacts on the world, well I think the actions in the Middle East have had a net positive impact, it's my view, I'm an ex soldier, I have faith in the overall good intentions of the politicians that send our boys and girls out that they expect to have that net positive effect, and I believe that to be the case (note, I have been to both Afghanistan and Iraq, I now do business with individuals from those countries and the majority of feedback from those I talk to who live or lived in the area before, during and still now is positive on the whole)  Again others will hold a vehemently opposed opinion on that, and that's your view, I respect it. 

Sporting impact (well in baseball you hold the "world" series which is comical frankly as no-one else gets to partake!!) it's OK, I never have and likely never will "get" baseball....sorry.

seriously in sports the US is obviously right up there, I think the youth development programs for sports here in the US are indeed world leading.

Long story short, do I think the US can lay claim to being the greatest - sure why not.  Do I think the US is the greatest - nope, but that's because any sane individual who knows anything about anything has to acknowledge that the greatest nation on earth is....SCOTLAND!!

"best" depends on how an individual ranks different criteria, for some the qualities that the US has are of utmost importance and for them the US might infact be the Best. Others would rank other priorities higher than others thus skewing their opinion of a country. For me personally as a father of 2 kids, health care,quality of education and mat leave, to name a few, have been very important. I really dont think there is a "best" country it depends too much on what each person values.

I don't hate our country, but some of it's leaders have a lot to be desired.... I just find it funny that anyone can think what happened in Iraq and Afghanistan was based in "naive or misguided assumptions".... they knew exactly what they were doing and why. I'll leave nefarious up to you... but naive... no.

The problem with all of this is separating what you really mean by America.. it's people and spirit, or leaders and policies. People are most certainly fallible, so therefore so are their leaders. People are capable of the most atrocious things, and the most beautiful... so therefore so is their country. America has done all those things. But the American spirit, and what is embodies is still alive. And it is alive in the people. It's the people that came here for something better, for a dream to come real that made it what it is. Those people exist everywhere, but they traveled here because of the hope that it could actually come true here. That they could be free, independent, and make their own destiny.

It still can. We'll see.

All those other countries are not "free" in the sense of what our founders envisioned. They rely on their government taking care of them through socialized programs... and I'm not saying anything is wrong with that. That is the contract the people of that country have with their government. But governments are not the answer to life, and all of them are finding difficulty balancing what they provide with what they can charge for it. America has a pretty HUGE independent streak, and does not want the same things. Some do... and this is the battle that has been going on for the last 100 years. What our founders (that includes all the people) envisioned for limited government, and the people today wanting to be socialized. It will still be going long after I'm dead.... but we can't have stuff we don't pay for. If everyone wants a socialized country, you better start paying for it.... because we are already broke.

It is, of course, your right to have that opinion. I was born and lived in the US, lived in Israel, England and now Canada. Each place has it's advantages over others, and disadvantages as well.

And while I wouldn't say that the US takes last place, I also wouldn't put it first. In fact, now that I have found Taco Bell here in Canada (I know, it's terrible, but I really like the chicken burrito supreme...), I sorta like it here best.

One of the problems I have with the states is the belief that the USA is always right, is the best system, has nothing the learn from others, that it's idea of the ideal government is not only the best, but must be imposed upon others, and since it knows best, all actions are justified, as seen here in this thread.

Well that's one way to take it... what I do certainly believe is the fundamental state of all men is the desire to be free. Not slaves to men, slaves to debtors, or slaves to governments. For most of our history, and indeed the history of the modern world... people have come from all corners of the planet to come here for that promise our Constitution grantees. Now I do not know what "best" means... but what other country in the last 200 years even comes close to what we provided?

I do feel that we have coasted on our success since WWII and that we are like the spoiled kid on the block that has everything... I'm not cool with that.... but the spoiled kid got that way... well, because we have everything. That will not last though.

But please tell me what country we forced our Constitution on. Please tell me the country we forced our way of life on that did not want it. Even Iraq is not a copy of ours. They chose their own.

Agree completely with the Bold.  Iraq's military is now the first-ever arab army trained in the western/decentralized command and centralized control style.  They'll fend off attacks and develop better than if Saddam had handed the reins over to Uday and Qusay.   I don't know about Afgh.  It has never really had a civilization to speak of. 

I have to say you missed an opportunity to end the post with the best line:

"Ef it Ain't Scottish it's CRAP!"

Frankly, everything we know about the Scots comes from "Braveheart" (Aussie-Mel Gibson) and here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zCrT96QJBfQ (Canadian- Mike Myers).

(to the underlined) Really? You don't recall the initial optimism that it would be over in no time and it would cost us less than $100B, plus we'd reap the benefits in oil? We were going to be celebrated in the streets as heroes? Then of course after it took much longer than the initial expectations there was no plan in place to govern the now dismantled country. Apparently, someone also forgot the Sunni and Shia don't mix well and that became another problem. 

If that's not naivety, then I don't know what is.

You are describing the media spin and public dialog put out.... those that made and gave the orders to invade.... they knew exactly what they were doing and why.

And no it is not naivety... they knew that for 10 years prior... which is why we did not invade then, and why Bush 1 left Sadam in power.

Off hand, I'd say Japan. As for Iraq, it's not as if they chose their own after they decided, on their own, to go that route.

Don't misunderstand, I also think that a democracy is better then a dictatorship, and a religious dictatorship is even worse. But me having that opinion does not mean that others have to do what I think is right.

Seriously? Plenty, to a greater or lesser degree. Canada, Australia, New Zealand are three that come up when I've discussed places that people might want to emigrate to with friends.

By the way, regarding the constitution, I have heard, quite often, how wonderful it is to have one, as if a country that doesn't have a constitution is somehow lacking. But some countries manage to muddle along quite well without one, or may have the same idea, but in another form.

So what's the big deal with having a constitution?

Japan?.... you mean the same country that attacked us and is now one of the dominate economies in the word... and actually likes us... other than that whole nuclear bomb thing.