Michael Sams (Page 2)
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2014-02-11 1:15 PM in reply to: powerman |
Member 5452 NC | Subject: RE: Michael Sams Originally posted by powerman And that I definitely agree with. God knows we could use him. He will still go high... I just think one or two will pass because something else is more important and they don't want the drama. Not by him... but what will come with him from the media. Tebow. It would be hilarious if New England drafted him. The media would get nothing. |
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2014-02-11 1:26 PM in reply to: Goosedog |
Expert 3126 Boise, ID | Subject: RE: Michael Sams Originally posted by Goosedog Originally posted by Aarondb4 Totally agree that it will be nice once this isn't an issue. But what agenda do you think the media is pushing? If this was truly a non-issue that we shouldn't even bother discussing, there wouldn't be an agenda to push.
Rather unfortunate that in our "drama news" society he had to "get out in front of it" and hope that he would do better in the draft if he got to put his own spin on it. If the media wasn't so desperate for something like this to latch onto and push an agenda, he could have told the people that matter (family, friends, teammates) then entered the draft based on, oh I don't know, his ability to play football, and the rest would have been a non issue. Depends on who is reporting on it I guess. One side will be trying to find anything to paint certain teams as anti-gay, "oh, you didn't pick him int he first round? Is it because you hate gay people?" Kinda like what we just watched the Vikings go through with the kicker they let go. Anything to make a story out of it. Then they will have to have other people on their "shows" to comment on how much they either love or hate gay people. It just becomes one big stupid circus. No one will talk about his play. He will be turned into a spectacle which like I said will make teams think twice, kinda like they have to do with Tebow, or like the Olympics had to do with Lolo Jones. Who the heck cares what their religious affiliation is, or if they want to have sex before they are married or not, and if they are gay or not. Can they throw a football? Can they tackle a guy? Can they push a bobsled? I just wish we could talk about that instead. |
2014-02-11 3:22 PM in reply to: Aarondb4 |
Elite 4547 | Subject: RE: Michael Sams Originally posted by Aarondb4
Rather unfortunate that in our "drama news" society he had to "get out in front of it" and hope that he would do better in the draft if he got to put his own spin on it. If the media wasn't so desperate for something like this to latch onto and push an agenda, he could have told the people that matter (family, friends, teammates) then entered the draft based on, oh I don't know, his ability to play football, and the rest would have been a non issue. Perhaps it's less a "drama news" society, and more a "homosexuals do not have the same rights as heterosexuals" society thing. Like it or not, this guy (and every gay person in the U.S.) has to deal with straight-up ignorance...and hatred. As pointed out earlier, "chemistry issues in the locker room" is the code for the intolerance. I really liken this guy to a modern-day Jackie Robinson. I guess one can have the opinion he came out publicly to boost his draft strength...but I don't think that's the case. As had been mentioned in several articles, most NFL scouts knew he was gay. There are several active gay NFL players.,,and they haven't publicly come out because it's still a net negative financially. I respect this guy's guts. I hope he kills it at the Combine. |
2014-02-11 4:53 PM in reply to: ChineseDemocracy |
Pro 9391 Omaha, NE | Subject: RE: Michael Sams Originally posted by ChineseDemocracy Originally posted by Aarondb4 Perhaps it's less a "drama news" society, and more a "homosexuals do not have the same rights as heterosexuals" society thing. Like it or not, this guy (and every gay person in the U.S.) has to deal with straight-up ignorance...and hatred. As pointed out earlier, "chemistry issues in the locker room" is the code for the intolerance. I really liken this guy to a modern-day Jackie Robinson. I guess one can have the opinion he came out publicly to boost his draft strength...but I don't think that's the case. As had been mentioned in several articles, most NFL scouts knew he was gay. There are several active gay NFL players.,,and they haven't publicly come out because it's still a net negative financially. I respect this guy's guts. I hope he kills it at the Combine.
Rather unfortunate that in our "drama news" society he had to "get out in front of it" and hope that he would do better in the draft if he got to put his own spin on it. If the media wasn't so desperate for something like this to latch onto and push an agenda, he could have told the people that matter (family, friends, teammates) then entered the draft based on, oh I don't know, his ability to play football, and the rest would have been a non issue. I'd like to respond, but I don't want to force you to be intolerant of my beliefs. Then you'd be no better than my knuckle dragging self. ;-) |
2014-02-11 9:45 PM in reply to: Aarondb4 |
Master 4452 | Subject: RE: Michael Sams Originally posted by Aarondb4 Originally posted by Goosedog Originally posted by Aarondb4 Have you ever had a close friend or family member come out to you as being gay? I've had three. Let me assure you, it is a big deal to them. I don't see why there has to be some big announcement. I don't announce to my family, friends and co-workers that I am hetero. Yep I have. Most of us responded with "yep, that figures, so?" Making a big deal out of it defines a person by it. It has to stop somewhere otherwise you end up with the gay version of Al Sharpton and Jesse Jackson, constantly making it a battle and creating the "us vs. them" mentality which is the original reason for the "coming out". I have had gay friends who defined themselves by being gay and I have had friends who were gay. Any discussion with the friends who let it define them led right back to us vs. them. My friends who happened to be gay but didn't let it define them didn't have that issue. If I were to have a coming out party as hetero and define myself only as a "straight man" and take the us vs. them mentality then I would likely be a Republican Senator and I would be ridiculed as such. You, and many others who have commented, don't have an issue with gays/lesbians. But there are many, many who do. Many who do hate, and don't tolerate, and persecute. So of course you don't understand what the big deal is. You are not on one side or the other, but a bystander. Whether you understand it or not, currently in many places, there IS an us vs them mentality. Just look at Arlan Bruce and Bryant Turner's comments. Michael Sam is just trying to bridge the gap between. Be thankful that you CAN talk about your spouse and you don't have to come out. The day that it doesn't matter, we won't make announcements. Promise. |
2014-02-11 10:02 PM in reply to: 0 |
Pro 15655 | Subject: RE: Michael Sams I heard the comments from Sam's father tonight. What a complete jackarse. Edited by Left Brain 2014-02-11 10:02 PM |
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2014-02-11 11:41 PM in reply to: Left Brain |
Member 1293 Pearland,Tx | Subject: RE: Michael Sams I respect "Michael Sam's" decision to come out and i see him as same as anybody else , but have to admit he is going to be in a locker room full of brutes and brawn . I am curious what would the locker room drama would be |
2014-02-12 7:43 AM in reply to: Left Brain |
Deep in the Heart of Texas | Subject: RE: Michael Sams Originally posted by Left Brain Based upon Michael Sam's story of growing up, I'm assuming dear ol' dad was not the Ward Cleaver type.I heard the comments from Sam's father tonight. What a complete jackarse. |
2014-02-12 9:10 AM in reply to: Left Brain |
Champion 15211 Southern Chicago Suburbs, IL | Subject: RE: Michael Sams Originally posted by Left Brain I heard the comments from Sam's father tonight. What a complete jackarse. Yup. |
2014-02-12 9:48 AM in reply to: bcraht |
Expert 3126 Boise, ID | Subject: RE: Michael Sams Originally posted by bcraht Originally posted by Aarondb4 Originally posted by Goosedog Originally posted by Aarondb4 Have you ever had a close friend or family member come out to you as being gay? I've had three. Let me assure you, it is a big deal to them. I don't see why there has to be some big announcement. I don't announce to my family, friends and co-workers that I am hetero. Yep I have. Most of us responded with "yep, that figures, so?" Making a big deal out of it defines a person by it. It has to stop somewhere otherwise you end up with the gay version of Al Sharpton and Jesse Jackson, constantly making it a battle and creating the "us vs. them" mentality which is the original reason for the "coming out". I have had gay friends who defined themselves by being gay and I have had friends who were gay. Any discussion with the friends who let it define them led right back to us vs. them. My friends who happened to be gay but didn't let it define them didn't have that issue. If I were to have a coming out party as hetero and define myself only as a "straight man" and take the us vs. them mentality then I would likely be a Republican Senator and I would be ridiculed as such. You, and many others who have commented, don't have an issue with gays/lesbians. But there are many, many who do. Many who do hate, and don't tolerate, and persecute. So of course you don't understand what the big deal is. You are not on one side or the other, but a bystander. Whether you understand it or not, currently in many places, there IS an us vs them mentality. Just look at Arlan Bruce and Bryant Turner's comments. Michael Sam is just trying to bridge the gap between. Be thankful that you CAN talk about your spouse and you don't have to come out. The day that it doesn't matter, we won't make announcements. Promise. Just for the sake of discussion would you perhaps be able to provide some examples that are not too personal for you? If not I understand. Persecute is a pretty strong word, I would be interested to know how a gay person is persecuted. As far as the hate and don't tolerate, how does this manifest itself? Muslim extremists hate me, it doesn't bother me, the black panthers hate me, again that has no affect on me. Heck I am sure there are some far left liberal whackos who would hate me and not tolerate me just based on political views, I don't see how this affects me. I'm sure Michael Sams got some mean comments on Twitter and Facebook, who hasn't? I post regularly on my Senator's Facebook page and I have most definitely been hated and not tolerated, doesn't make any difference to me. I have not seen the gay people I know being "persecuted". I am not trying to be flippant, just trying to understand from your view. Thanks. |
2014-02-12 10:11 AM in reply to: Aarondb4 |
Veteran 869 Stevens Point, Wisconsin | Subject: RE: Michael Sams Originally posted by Aarondb4 Originally posted by bcraht Originally posted by Aarondb4 Originally posted by Goosedog Originally posted by Aarondb4 Have you ever had a close friend or family member come out to you as being gay? I've had three. Let me assure you, it is a big deal to them. I don't see why there has to be some big announcement. I don't announce to my family, friends and co-workers that I am hetero. Yep I have. Most of us responded with "yep, that figures, so?" Making a big deal out of it defines a person by it. It has to stop somewhere otherwise you end up with the gay version of Al Sharpton and Jesse Jackson, constantly making it a battle and creating the "us vs. them" mentality which is the original reason for the "coming out". I have had gay friends who defined themselves by being gay and I have had friends who were gay. Any discussion with the friends who let it define them led right back to us vs. them. My friends who happened to be gay but didn't let it define them didn't have that issue. If I were to have a coming out party as hetero and define myself only as a "straight man" and take the us vs. them mentality then I would likely be a Republican Senator and I would be ridiculed as such. You, and many others who have commented, don't have an issue with gays/lesbians. But there are many, many who do. Many who do hate, and don't tolerate, and persecute. So of course you don't understand what the big deal is. You are not on one side or the other, but a bystander. Whether you understand it or not, currently in many places, there IS an us vs them mentality. Just look at Arlan Bruce and Bryant Turner's comments. Michael Sam is just trying to bridge the gap between. Be thankful that you CAN talk about your spouse and you don't have to come out. The day that it doesn't matter, we won't make announcements. Promise. Just for the sake of discussion would you perhaps be able to provide some examples that are not too personal for you? If not I understand. Persecute is a pretty strong word, I would be interested to know how a gay person is persecuted. As far as the hate and don't tolerate, how does this manifest itself? Muslim extremists hate me, it doesn't bother me, the black panthers hate me, again that has no affect on me. Heck I am sure there are some far left liberal whackos who would hate me and not tolerate me just based on political views, I don't see how this affects me. I'm sure Michael Sams got some mean comments on Twitter and Facebook, who hasn't? I post regularly on my Senator's Facebook page and I have most definitely been hated and not tolerated, doesn't make any difference to me. I have not seen the gay people I know being "persecuted". I am not trying to be flippant, just trying to understand from your view. Thanks. Well I cant speak for the poster but I can share some of my examples of things that I have experienced. As far as hate goes I've been called every name in the book as a derogatory term, this has occurred several times when I have been out on a date. Whatever I don't let this get under my skin. These people aren't the ones that bother me. I've also had people tell me I am not welcome at functions because I'm gay - they don't agree with me and they don't want me around any longer. These are people I used to be friends with and the only thing that changed was I told them the truth about myself. These are the ones that get to me. It hurts thinking you could confide in these people and you were wrong. While this is a pretty big minority of the people I have dealt with it still happens. To respond to the highlighted phrase - It's because that's your political beliefs. Those can change if you wanted to (I'm sure you don't and are perfectly happy with them, which is fine with me) you also are not in a small minority with your beliefs. I can't change who I am even If I wanted to. If I said I did, or could I would be living a lie and a miserable existence. I've been ridiculed for my political beliefs on numerous occasions sure it get's me upset from time to time but it is very different from your sexual identity / orientation. |
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2014-02-12 11:30 AM in reply to: Aarondb4 |
Master 4452 | Subject: RE: Michael Sams Originally posted by Aarondb4 Originally posted by bcraht Originally posted by Aarondb4 Originally posted by Goosedog Originally posted by Aarondb4 Have you ever had a close friend or family member come out to you as being gay? I've had three. Let me assure you, it is a big deal to them. I don't see why there has to be some big announcement. I don't announce to my family, friends and co-workers that I am hetero. Yep I have. Most of us responded with "yep, that figures, so?" Making a big deal out of it defines a person by it. It has to stop somewhere otherwise you end up with the gay version of Al Sharpton and Jesse Jackson, constantly making it a battle and creating the "us vs. them" mentality which is the original reason for the "coming out". I have had gay friends who defined themselves by being gay and I have had friends who were gay. Any discussion with the friends who let it define them led right back to us vs. them. My friends who happened to be gay but didn't let it define them didn't have that issue. If I were to have a coming out party as hetero and define myself only as a "straight man" and take the us vs. them mentality then I would likely be a Republican Senator and I would be ridiculed as such. You, and many others who have commented, don't have an issue with gays/lesbians. But there are many, many who do. Many who do hate, and don't tolerate, and persecute. So of course you don't understand what the big deal is. You are not on one side or the other, but a bystander. Whether you understand it or not, currently in many places, there IS an us vs them mentality. Just look at Arlan Bruce and Bryant Turner's comments. Michael Sam is just trying to bridge the gap between. Be thankful that you CAN talk about your spouse and you don't have to come out. The day that it doesn't matter, we won't make announcements. Promise. Just for the sake of discussion would you perhaps be able to provide some examples that are not too personal for you? If not I understand. Persecute is a pretty strong word, I would be interested to know how a gay person is persecuted. As far as the hate and don't tolerate, how does this manifest itself? Muslim extremists hate me, it doesn't bother me, the black panthers hate me, again that has no affect on me. Heck I am sure there are some far left liberal whackos who would hate me and not tolerate me just based on political views, I don't see how this affects me. I'm sure Michael Sams got some mean comments on Twitter and Facebook, who hasn't? I post regularly on my Senator's Facebook page and I have most definitely been hated and not tolerated, doesn't make any difference to me. I have not seen the gay people I know being "persecuted". I am not trying to be flippant, just trying to understand from your view. Thanks. per·se·cute 'p?rs??kyo?ot/ verb
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2014-02-12 11:56 AM in reply to: bcraht |
Expert 3126 Boise, ID | Subject: RE: Michael Sams I'll just reply to save the wall of text. Thanks for the examples, I'm sure it is not an easy topic to discuss for you. In answer to your question, yes I have experienced that due to my skin color which is something I cannot change. Gotta love cheap places to stay in NY, was followed and taunted by a group, late at night, in the "wrong neighborhood. Best to focus on the positive interactions though and let the bad apples go. The original point of the thread was the idea of "coming out". Your family examples seem like good reason to "come out" to your family and close friends, I can obviously understand doing that, it makes perfect sense and I imagine is necessary. I guess the thing I don't agree with is the public coming out that Sams did. He previously told his teammates, just like a normal person would tell their family and friends. That makes sense to me. However going to ESPN and making a proclamation still does not make a lot of sense to me. According to some reports, his family found out by watching ESPN. Telling people who are important to you and does not define you by your preference. Seeking an interview on ESPN and announcing to the world is different IMO and whether intended or not shifts the focus from the person (or in this case their ability to play football) to their preference. It could almost be seen as placing him in a box that IMO he really doesn't need to be in. Whether that reaction is fair or not is up for contention I suppose. But I had never heard of this guy before (don't follow college ball) and now I know him only as the guy who announced he was gay before the draft. Rather than knowing him as the star college guy who got drafted in the first round for being awesome. So I guess my contention is not just with Sams, coming out but also with the media making it a big deal and perhaps making him feel like he had no choice but to control the story by telling it first. IMO it should not be a story. I guess my only other thought is I don't see this as good for gay people, like I said it puts him in a box and defines him for a lot of people whether he likes it or not, it shifts the focus from him as a person to him as a gay person. Anyway, just some musings. Thanks for the discussion on what I am sure is not an easy topic. |
2014-02-12 12:29 PM in reply to: Aarondb4 |
Master 4452 | Subject: RE: Michael Sams Originally posted by Aarondb4 I'll just reply to save the wall of text. Thanks for the examples, I'm sure it is not an easy topic to discuss for you. In answer to your question, yes I have experienced that due to my skin color which is something I cannot change. Gotta love cheap places to stay in NY, was followed and taunted by a group, late at night, in the "wrong neighborhood. Best to focus on the positive interactions though and let the bad apples go. The original point of the thread was the idea of "coming out". Your family examples seem like good reason to "come out" to your family and close friends, I can obviously understand doing that, it makes perfect sense and I imagine is necessary. I guess the thing I don't agree with is the public coming out that Sams did. He previously told his teammates, just like a normal person would tell their family and friends. That makes sense to me. However going to ESPN and making a proclamation still does not make a lot of sense to me. According to some reports, his family found out by watching ESPN. Telling people who are important to you and does not define you by your preference. Seeking an interview on ESPN and announcing to the world is different IMO and whether intended or not shifts the focus from the person (or in this case their ability to play football) to their preference. It could almost be seen as placing him in a box that IMO he really doesn't need to be in. Whether that reaction is fair or not is up for contention I suppose. But I had never heard of this guy before (don't follow college ball) and now I know him only as the guy who announced he was gay before the draft. Rather than knowing him as the star college guy who got drafted in the first round for being awesome. So I guess my contention is not just with Sams, coming out but also with the media making it a big deal and perhaps making him feel like he had no choice but to control the story by telling it first. IMO it should not be a story. I guess my only other thought is I don't see this as good for gay people, like I said it puts him in a box and defines him for a lot of people whether he likes it or not, it shifts the focus from him as a person to him as a gay person. Anyway, just some musings. Thanks for the discussion on what I am sure is not an easy topic. Sorry, I have to quote to make a couple points. Ok, so there is some understanding there (wrt to feeling fear due to your skin colour). Thanks for that. Just like your skin colour is not a preference, however, neither is sexual orientation. Do you really think that he/we/I would choose to be gay, given all that comes along with it? Secondly, HE IS ALREADY IN A BOX, placed there by those who think that homosexuality is wrong, a sin, or whatever. The box is what stops so many from being who they are. The box has some cracks, thanks to Michael Sam and Conner Mertens. Once the box is gone, there will be NO NEED for announcements on ESPN. People will just be able to be who they are. Until then, there has to be a first, and a second, and a one hundredth. Until it is accepted. Anyone who is gay and into sports (and their supporters) has likely been following along with the "You Can Play" movement. Wade Davis, the Executive Director, was an NFL player who came out well after his career was over. Patrick Burke, son of Brian Burke (currently admin with the NHL's Calgary Flames) is the President--his brother was gay. They have recently been travelling to US Colleges to combat homophobia in sports. As LB has said, there has always been a 'Don't ask, don't tell' attitude in sports. Someone has to be out publicly, for that to change. If he was 'outed' by the media, which was likely given that he was out to his friends/teammates, the spin would have been that he was trying to hide it. What if he didn't come out, got drafted, was in the locker room with his teammates for a time, then was outed? There would be huge backlash. Maybe there still will be. For the record, I don't find this a difficult topic. I appreciate the sentiment, but it proves a point. Once no one sees it as 'not an easy topic', we won't need the Michael Sams of the world to announce publicly. Thank you for the discussion as well. Peace. |
2014-02-12 12:29 PM in reply to: 0 |
Pro 5755 | Subject: RE: Michael Sams Maybe Philly will take him. We certainly need help with the pass rush, and have a 3rd and 4th round pick in the draft. Philly is very gay-friendly. Don't forget, the Eagles hired Vick. Gay >> dog-killer. Edited by BrianRunsPhilly 2014-02-12 12:30 PM |
2014-02-12 12:36 PM in reply to: bcraht |
Expert 3126 Boise, ID | Subject: RE: Michael Sams Originally posted by bcraht Originally posted by Aarondb4 I'll just reply to save the wall of text. Thanks for the examples, I'm sure it is not an easy topic to discuss for you. In answer to your question, yes I have experienced that due to my skin color which is something I cannot change. Gotta love cheap places to stay in NY, was followed and taunted by a group, late at night, in the "wrong neighborhood. Best to focus on the positive interactions though and let the bad apples go. The original point of the thread was the idea of "coming out". Your family examples seem like good reason to "come out" to your family and close friends, I can obviously understand doing that, it makes perfect sense and I imagine is necessary. I guess the thing I don't agree with is the public coming out that Sams did. He previously told his teammates, just like a normal person would tell their family and friends. That makes sense to me. However going to ESPN and making a proclamation still does not make a lot of sense to me. According to some reports, his family found out by watching ESPN. Telling people who are important to you and does not define you by your preference. Seeking an interview on ESPN and announcing to the world is different IMO and whether intended or not shifts the focus from the person (or in this case their ability to play football) to their preference. It could almost be seen as placing him in a box that IMO he really doesn't need to be in. Whether that reaction is fair or not is up for contention I suppose. But I had never heard of this guy before (don't follow college ball) and now I know him only as the guy who announced he was gay before the draft. Rather than knowing him as the star college guy who got drafted in the first round for being awesome. So I guess my contention is not just with Sams, coming out but also with the media making it a big deal and perhaps making him feel like he had no choice but to control the story by telling it first. IMO it should not be a story. I guess my only other thought is I don't see this as good for gay people, like I said it puts him in a box and defines him for a lot of people whether he likes it or not, it shifts the focus from him as a person to him as a gay person. Anyway, just some musings. Thanks for the discussion on what I am sure is not an easy topic. Sorry, I have to quote to make a couple points. Ok, so there is some understanding there (wrt to feeling fear due to your skin colour). Thanks for that. Just like your skin colour is not a preference, however, neither is sexual orientation. Do you really think that he/we/I would choose to be gay, given all that comes along with it? Secondly, HE IS ALREADY IN A BOX, placed there by those who think that homosexuality is wrong, a sin, or whatever. The box is what stops so many from being who they are. The box has some cracks, thanks to Michael Sam and Conner Mertens. Once the box is gone, there will be NO NEED for announcements on ESPN. People will just be able to be who they are. Until then, there has to be a first, and a second, and a one hundredth. Until it is accepted. Anyone who is gay and into sports (and their supporters) has likely been following along with the "You Can Play" movement. Wade Davis, the Executive Director, was an NFL player who came out well after his career was over. Patrick Burke, son of Brian Burke (currently admin with the NHL's Calgary Flames) is the President--his brother was gay. They have recently been travelling to US Colleges to combat homophobia in sports. As LB has said, there has always been a 'Don't ask, don't tell' attitude in sports. Someone has to be out publicly, for that to change. If he was 'outed' by the media, which was likely given that he was out to his friends/teammates, the spin would have been that he was trying to hide it. What if he didn't come out, got drafted, was in the locker room with his teammates for a time, then was outed? There would be huge backlash. Maybe there still will be. For the record, I don't find this a difficult topic. I appreciate the sentiment, but it proves a point. Once no one sees it as 'not an easy topic', we won't need the Michael Sams of the world to announce publicly. Thank you for the discussion as well. Peace. Fair enough. Seems we are both arguing for the same thing, we both don't think he should have had to come out. I guess we just differ on when that need stops, I see him making the announcement as feeding into the need, but as you said who knows what would have happened if he hadn't done what he did. Obviously the choice is up to the individual and he made his choice, hope it works out for him. Yeah I added the "difficult" part mostly to convey my thanks for a good discussion without the emotional flare ups that can often occur on both sides. So thanks again for a good, frank discussion. |
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2014-02-12 12:52 PM in reply to: BrianRunsPhilly |
Master 4452 | Subject: RE: Michael Sams Originally posted by BrianRunsPhilly Maybe Philly will take him. We certainly need help with the pass rush, and have a 3rd and 4th round pick in the draft. Philly is very gay-friendly. Don't forget, the Eagles hired Vick. Gay >> dog-killer. Phew, we climbed up the 'Most Hated' list a little bit. |
2014-02-12 1:03 PM in reply to: bcraht |
Pro 5755 | Subject: RE: Michael Sams Originally posted by bcraht Originally posted by BrianRunsPhilly Maybe Philly will take him. We certainly need help with the pass rush, and have a 3rd and 4th round pick in the draft. Philly is very gay-friendly. Don't forget, the Eagles hired Vick. Gay >> dog-killer. Phew, we climbed up the 'Most Hated' list a little bit. I sure hope you didn't take it that way! Maybe I should have used ≠ (not equal to). Although I have to say living in my little urban bubble I didn't realize how much homophobia there still is out there until I read some of the comments posted on the sports blogs. Just sad. |
2014-02-12 1:13 PM in reply to: BrianRunsPhilly |
Master 4452 | Subject: RE: Michael Sams Originally posted by BrianRunsPhilly Originally posted by bcraht Originally posted by BrianRunsPhilly Maybe Philly will take him. We certainly need help with the pass rush, and have a 3rd and 4th round pick in the draft. Philly is very gay-friendly. Don't forget, the Eagles hired Vick. Gay >> dog-killer. Phew, we climbed up the 'Most Hated' list a little bit. I sure hope you didn't take it that way! Maybe I should have used ≠ (not equal to). Although I have to say living in my little urban bubble I didn't realize how much homophobia there still is out there until I read some of the comments posted on the sports blogs. Just sad. Nope, just made me giggle a little bit. |
2014-02-12 1:17 PM in reply to: bcraht |
Pro 15655 | Subject: RE: Michael Sams Originally posted by bcraht Originally posted by Aarondb4 I'll just reply to save the wall of text. Thanks for the examples, I'm sure it is not an easy topic to discuss for you. In answer to your question, yes I have experienced that due to my skin color which is something I cannot change. Gotta love cheap places to stay in NY, was followed and taunted by a group, late at night, in the "wrong neighborhood. Best to focus on the positive interactions though and let the bad apples go. The original point of the thread was the idea of "coming out". Your family examples seem like good reason to "come out" to your family and close friends, I can obviously understand doing that, it makes perfect sense and I imagine is necessary. I guess the thing I don't agree with is the public coming out that Sams did. He previously told his teammates, just like a normal person would tell their family and friends. That makes sense to me. However going to ESPN and making a proclamation still does not make a lot of sense to me. According to some reports, his family found out by watching ESPN. Telling people who are important to you and does not define you by your preference. Seeking an interview on ESPN and announcing to the world is different IMO and whether intended or not shifts the focus from the person (or in this case their ability to play football) to their preference. It could almost be seen as placing him in a box that IMO he really doesn't need to be in. Whether that reaction is fair or not is up for contention I suppose. But I had never heard of this guy before (don't follow college ball) and now I know him only as the guy who announced he was gay before the draft. Rather than knowing him as the star college guy who got drafted in the first round for being awesome. So I guess my contention is not just with Sams, coming out but also with the media making it a big deal and perhaps making him feel like he had no choice but to control the story by telling it first. IMO it should not be a story. I guess my only other thought is I don't see this as good for gay people, like I said it puts him in a box and defines him for a lot of people whether he likes it or not, it shifts the focus from him as a person to him as a gay person. Anyway, just some musings. Thanks for the discussion on what I am sure is not an easy topic. Sorry, I have to quote to make a couple points. Ok, so there is some understanding there (wrt to feeling fear due to your skin colour). Thanks for that. Just like your skin colour is not a preference, however, neither is sexual orientation. Do you really think that he/we/I would choose to be gay, given all that comes along with it? Secondly, HE IS ALREADY IN A BOX, placed there by those who think that homosexuality is wrong, a sin, or whatever. The box is what stops so many from being who they are. The box has some cracks, thanks to Michael Sam and Conner Mertens. Once the box is gone, there will be NO NEED for announcements on ESPN. People will just be able to be who they are. Until then, there has to be a first, and a second, and a one hundredth. Until it is accepted. Anyone who is gay and into sports (and their supporters) has likely been following along with the "You Can Play" movement. Wade Davis, the Executive Director, was an NFL player who came out well after his career was over. Patrick Burke, son of Brian Burke (currently admin with the NHL's Calgary Flames) is the President--his brother was gay. They have recently been travelling to US Colleges to combat homophobia in sports. As LB has said, there has always been a 'Don't ask, don't tell' attitude in sports. Someone has to be out publicly, for that to change. If he was 'outed' by the media, which was likely given that he was out to his friends/teammates, the spin would have been that he was trying to hide it. What if he didn't come out, got drafted, was in the locker room with his teammates for a time, then was outed? There would be huge backlash. Maybe there still will be. For the record, I don't find this a difficult topic. I appreciate the sentiment, but it proves a point. Once no one sees it as 'not an easy topic', we won't need the Michael Sams of the world to announce publicly. Thank you for the discussion as well. Peace. Your post is exactly why I have always made it a point to let my kids know that I don't consider gay people differently than I consider any other person. I wouldn't want a child of mine to live a single minute thinking they had to hide that from me, or that I would somehow consider them differently than I do now. So far they seem like happy people......that's all I care about. |
2014-02-12 1:19 PM in reply to: Left Brain |
Master 4452 | Subject: RE: Michael Sams Originally posted by Left Brain Originally posted by bcraht Originally posted by Aarondb4 I'll just reply to save the wall of text. Thanks for the examples, I'm sure it is not an easy topic to discuss for you. In answer to your question, yes I have experienced that due to my skin color which is something I cannot change. Gotta love cheap places to stay in NY, was followed and taunted by a group, late at night, in the "wrong neighborhood. Best to focus on the positive interactions though and let the bad apples go. The original point of the thread was the idea of "coming out". Your family examples seem like good reason to "come out" to your family and close friends, I can obviously understand doing that, it makes perfect sense and I imagine is necessary. I guess the thing I don't agree with is the public coming out that Sams did. He previously told his teammates, just like a normal person would tell their family and friends. That makes sense to me. However going to ESPN and making a proclamation still does not make a lot of sense to me. According to some reports, his family found out by watching ESPN. Telling people who are important to you and does not define you by your preference. Seeking an interview on ESPN and announcing to the world is different IMO and whether intended or not shifts the focus from the person (or in this case their ability to play football) to their preference. It could almost be seen as placing him in a box that IMO he really doesn't need to be in. Whether that reaction is fair or not is up for contention I suppose. But I had never heard of this guy before (don't follow college ball) and now I know him only as the guy who announced he was gay before the draft. Rather than knowing him as the star college guy who got drafted in the first round for being awesome. So I guess my contention is not just with Sams, coming out but also with the media making it a big deal and perhaps making him feel like he had no choice but to control the story by telling it first. IMO it should not be a story. I guess my only other thought is I don't see this as good for gay people, like I said it puts him in a box and defines him for a lot of people whether he likes it or not, it shifts the focus from him as a person to him as a gay person. Anyway, just some musings. Thanks for the discussion on what I am sure is not an easy topic. Sorry, I have to quote to make a couple points. Ok, so there is some understanding there (wrt to feeling fear due to your skin colour). Thanks for that. Just like your skin colour is not a preference, however, neither is sexual orientation. Do you really think that he/we/I would choose to be gay, given all that comes along with it? Secondly, HE IS ALREADY IN A BOX, placed there by those who think that homosexuality is wrong, a sin, or whatever. The box is what stops so many from being who they are. The box has some cracks, thanks to Michael Sam and Conner Mertens. Once the box is gone, there will be NO NEED for announcements on ESPN. People will just be able to be who they are. Until then, there has to be a first, and a second, and a one hundredth. Until it is accepted. Anyone who is gay and into sports (and their supporters) has likely been following along with the "You Can Play" movement. Wade Davis, the Executive Director, was an NFL player who came out well after his career was over. Patrick Burke, son of Brian Burke (currently admin with the NHL's Calgary Flames) is the President--his brother was gay. They have recently been travelling to US Colleges to combat homophobia in sports. As LB has said, there has always been a 'Don't ask, don't tell' attitude in sports. Someone has to be out publicly, for that to change. If he was 'outed' by the media, which was likely given that he was out to his friends/teammates, the spin would have been that he was trying to hide it. What if he didn't come out, got drafted, was in the locker room with his teammates for a time, then was outed? There would be huge backlash. Maybe there still will be. For the record, I don't find this a difficult topic. I appreciate the sentiment, but it proves a point. Once no one sees it as 'not an easy topic', we won't need the Michael Sams of the world to announce publicly. Thank you for the discussion as well. Peace. Your post is exactly why I have always made it a point to let my kids know that I don't consider gay people differently than I consider any other person. I wouldn't want a child of mine to live a single minute thinking they had to hide that from me, or that I would somehow consider them differently than I do now. So far they seem like happy people......that's all I care about. That is awesome. But I continue to wait for the day when you don't have to make it a point. |
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2014-02-12 1:23 PM in reply to: bcraht |
Pro 15655 | Subject: RE: Michael Sams Originally posted by bcraht Originally posted by Left Brain Originally posted by bcraht Originally posted by Aarondb4 I'll just reply to save the wall of text. Thanks for the examples, I'm sure it is not an easy topic to discuss for you. In answer to your question, yes I have experienced that due to my skin color which is something I cannot change. Gotta love cheap places to stay in NY, was followed and taunted by a group, late at night, in the "wrong neighborhood. Best to focus on the positive interactions though and let the bad apples go. The original point of the thread was the idea of "coming out". Your family examples seem like good reason to "come out" to your family and close friends, I can obviously understand doing that, it makes perfect sense and I imagine is necessary. I guess the thing I don't agree with is the public coming out that Sams did. He previously told his teammates, just like a normal person would tell their family and friends. That makes sense to me. However going to ESPN and making a proclamation still does not make a lot of sense to me. According to some reports, his family found out by watching ESPN. Telling people who are important to you and does not define you by your preference. Seeking an interview on ESPN and announcing to the world is different IMO and whether intended or not shifts the focus from the person (or in this case their ability to play football) to their preference. It could almost be seen as placing him in a box that IMO he really doesn't need to be in. Whether that reaction is fair or not is up for contention I suppose. But I had never heard of this guy before (don't follow college ball) and now I know him only as the guy who announced he was gay before the draft. Rather than knowing him as the star college guy who got drafted in the first round for being awesome. So I guess my contention is not just with Sams, coming out but also with the media making it a big deal and perhaps making him feel like he had no choice but to control the story by telling it first. IMO it should not be a story. I guess my only other thought is I don't see this as good for gay people, like I said it puts him in a box and defines him for a lot of people whether he likes it or not, it shifts the focus from him as a person to him as a gay person. Anyway, just some musings. Thanks for the discussion on what I am sure is not an easy topic. Sorry, I have to quote to make a couple points. Ok, so there is some understanding there (wrt to feeling fear due to your skin colour). Thanks for that. Just like your skin colour is not a preference, however, neither is sexual orientation. Do you really think that he/we/I would choose to be gay, given all that comes along with it? Secondly, HE IS ALREADY IN A BOX, placed there by those who think that homosexuality is wrong, a sin, or whatever. The box is what stops so many from being who they are. The box has some cracks, thanks to Michael Sam and Conner Mertens. Once the box is gone, there will be NO NEED for announcements on ESPN. People will just be able to be who they are. Until then, there has to be a first, and a second, and a one hundredth. Until it is accepted. Anyone who is gay and into sports (and their supporters) has likely been following along with the "You Can Play" movement. Wade Davis, the Executive Director, was an NFL player who came out well after his career was over. Patrick Burke, son of Brian Burke (currently admin with the NHL's Calgary Flames) is the President--his brother was gay. They have recently been travelling to US Colleges to combat homophobia in sports. As LB has said, there has always been a 'Don't ask, don't tell' attitude in sports. Someone has to be out publicly, for that to change. If he was 'outed' by the media, which was likely given that he was out to his friends/teammates, the spin would have been that he was trying to hide it. What if he didn't come out, got drafted, was in the locker room with his teammates for a time, then was outed? There would be huge backlash. Maybe there still will be. For the record, I don't find this a difficult topic. I appreciate the sentiment, but it proves a point. Once no one sees it as 'not an easy topic', we won't need the Michael Sams of the world to announce publicly. Thank you for the discussion as well. Peace. Your post is exactly why I have always made it a point to let my kids know that I don't consider gay people differently than I consider any other person. I wouldn't want a child of mine to live a single minute thinking they had to hide that from me, or that I would somehow consider them differently than I do now. So far they seem like happy people......that's all I care about. That is awesome. But I continue to wait for the day when you don't have to make it a point. I bet you do......I think you'll see it in your lifetime, at least I hope so. My kids openly talk about their friends from school who are gay.......can you imagine that even 10 years ago? |
2014-02-12 1:52 PM in reply to: Left Brain |
Pro 5755 | Subject: RE: Michael Sams Originally posted by Left Brain Originally posted by bcraht Originally posted by Left Brain Originally posted by bcraht Originally posted by Aarondb4 I'll just reply to save the wall of text. Thanks for the examples, I'm sure it is not an easy topic to discuss for you. In answer to your question, yes I have experienced that due to my skin color which is something I cannot change. Gotta love cheap places to stay in NY, was followed and taunted by a group, late at night, in the "wrong neighborhood. Best to focus on the positive interactions though and let the bad apples go. The original point of the thread was the idea of "coming out". Your family examples seem like good reason to "come out" to your family and close friends, I can obviously understand doing that, it makes perfect sense and I imagine is necessary. I guess the thing I don't agree with is the public coming out that Sams did. He previously told his teammates, just like a normal person would tell their family and friends. That makes sense to me. However going to ESPN and making a proclamation still does not make a lot of sense to me. According to some reports, his family found out by watching ESPN. Telling people who are important to you and does not define you by your preference. Seeking an interview on ESPN and announcing to the world is different IMO and whether intended or not shifts the focus from the person (or in this case their ability to play football) to their preference. It could almost be seen as placing him in a box that IMO he really doesn't need to be in. Whether that reaction is fair or not is up for contention I suppose. But I had never heard of this guy before (don't follow college ball) and now I know him only as the guy who announced he was gay before the draft. Rather than knowing him as the star college guy who got drafted in the first round for being awesome. So I guess my contention is not just with Sams, coming out but also with the media making it a big deal and perhaps making him feel like he had no choice but to control the story by telling it first. IMO it should not be a story. I guess my only other thought is I don't see this as good for gay people, like I said it puts him in a box and defines him for a lot of people whether he likes it or not, it shifts the focus from him as a person to him as a gay person. Anyway, just some musings. Thanks for the discussion on what I am sure is not an easy topic. Sorry, I have to quote to make a couple points. Ok, so there is some understanding there (wrt to feeling fear due to your skin colour). Thanks for that. Just like your skin colour is not a preference, however, neither is sexual orientation. Do you really think that he/we/I would choose to be gay, given all that comes along with it? Secondly, HE IS ALREADY IN A BOX, placed there by those who think that homosexuality is wrong, a sin, or whatever. The box is what stops so many from being who they are. The box has some cracks, thanks to Michael Sam and Conner Mertens. Once the box is gone, there will be NO NEED for announcements on ESPN. People will just be able to be who they are. Until then, there has to be a first, and a second, and a one hundredth. Until it is accepted. Anyone who is gay and into sports (and their supporters) has likely been following along with the "You Can Play" movement. Wade Davis, the Executive Director, was an NFL player who came out well after his career was over. Patrick Burke, son of Brian Burke (currently admin with the NHL's Calgary Flames) is the President--his brother was gay. They have recently been travelling to US Colleges to combat homophobia in sports. As LB has said, there has always been a 'Don't ask, don't tell' attitude in sports. Someone has to be out publicly, for that to change. If he was 'outed' by the media, which was likely given that he was out to his friends/teammates, the spin would have been that he was trying to hide it. What if he didn't come out, got drafted, was in the locker room with his teammates for a time, then was outed? There would be huge backlash. Maybe there still will be. For the record, I don't find this a difficult topic. I appreciate the sentiment, but it proves a point. Once no one sees it as 'not an easy topic', we won't need the Michael Sams of the world to announce publicly. Thank you for the discussion as well. Peace. Your post is exactly why I have always made it a point to let my kids know that I don't consider gay people differently than I consider any other person. I wouldn't want a child of mine to live a single minute thinking they had to hide that from me, or that I would somehow consider them differently than I do now. So far they seem like happy people......that's all I care about. That is awesome. But I continue to wait for the day when you don't have to make it a point. I bet you do......I think you'll see it in your lifetime, at least I hope so. My kids openly talk about their friends from school who are gay.......can you imagine that even 10 years ago? Ditto. My sons have had classmates they've known were gay since middle school. It's just no big deal to them. There were gay couples at my oldest sons proms, it didn't make the newspapers or even require a school meeting to discuss the possibility. Any decent parent who loves their kids would want them to be happy, healthy, and successful. IMO. |
2014-02-12 1:58 PM in reply to: BrianRunsPhilly |
Master 4452 | Subject: RE: Michael Sams Yep, you are both quite right. Hopefully in my/our lifetime. |
2014-02-12 2:13 PM in reply to: bcraht |
Veteran 869 Stevens Point, Wisconsin | Subject: RE: Michael Sams That makes me happy to hear. To respond to LB no I couldn't imagine it 10 years ago. 10 years ago is when I was a Junior/Senior in High School. It was still ripe with homophobia. It is great to see the strides that have been made in these 10 years. Thanks in parts to parents like you guys. So thanks =). |
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