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2014-01-23 9:36 AM
in reply to: GoFaster

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Elite
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Subject: RE: SBR Utopia ---- Permanently OPEN!!

Originally posted by GoFaster

Well everyone was "happily" testing a little while ago while I sat on the sidelines, but I got my 5min test done this morning (breaking my rule of never, ever, testing in the morning). I posted this in Marc's power group.

Well, I don't really know what to say about the 5min test this morning, I'm scratching my head about it. I set a PB with 303 watts, done after 2 months of minimal riding, and coming back after being sick for 3 weeks. HR was just ridiculous at an avg of 180 maxing out at 185 (180 is danger zone for me in normal circumstances) so my HR is still nto quite right. As a comparison I did a 5min test at the beginning of Dec and hit 300 watts with an avg HR of 171 and max of 176 - which corrleates much better with what I would expect to see.

Of course, my 5min result is what Ben can hold for 6 hours, but it's a good starting point, and far better than expected. 

 

Nice work Neil!  A 2 month taper maybe?  



2014-01-23 11:56 AM
in reply to: brigby1

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Subject: RE: SBR Utopia ---- Permanently OPEN!!

Originally posted by brigby1

Got a 300 & 400 IM into tonights swim.

(Also can't let us fall to page 2)

yikes.   200 IM is about all I can do....   I have been swimming 1-2 X per week and it shows.  Bumping that up to 3X per week starting this week, hopefully it will get a little easier.  Honestly, haven't really been tracking my splits as just trying to get base yards in at the moment.

I have been dividing my time between the elliptical and treadmill the last couple weeks, today did :30 on the treadie as 1:00 walk/4:00 run, so getting back to it!   Foot seesm to be fine, no ill effects I can discern. 

so it's 2014 V.2 gooooo... now.

2014-01-23 12:35 PM
in reply to: ChrisM

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Seattle
Subject: RE: SBR Utopia ---- Permanently OPEN!!

Had high hopes of making it back to my faster training group last night (haven't run in that group since the end of XC season) but my body had other plans. My legs were just DEAD, which almost never happens for me, I am generally aerobic-limited. I'm giving myself some slack though because I only had one day in between my long depletion run and the workout.

Instead I did 3 x 1.5 miles @ 96 second a quarter. An that was hard enough!

Hoping maybe I can move up next week but I'm not going to force anything. It might just be that I need to run a touch slower when I am logging marathon mileage. 

2014-01-23 5:39 PM
in reply to: Fred D

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2014-01-24 3:14 AM
in reply to: ChrisM

Elite
7783
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PEI, Canada
Subject: RE: SBR Utopia ---- Permanently OPEN!!

Originally posted by ChrisM

Originally posted by brigby1

Got a 300 & 400 IM into tonights swim.

(Also can't let us fall to page 2)

yikes.   200 IM is about all I can do....   I have been swimming 1-2 X per week and it shows.  Bumping that up to 3X per week starting this week, hopefully it will get a little easier.  Honestly, haven't really been tracking my splits as just trying to get base yards in at the moment.

I have been dividing my time between the elliptical and treadmill the last couple weeks, today did :30 on the treadie as 1:00 walk/4:00 run, so getting back to it!   Foot seesm to be fine, no ill effects I can discern. 

so it's 2014 V.2 gooooo... now.

Glad to hear your foot is doing better, hopefully you can put that behind you for good!

2014-01-24 3:15 AM
in reply to: TSimone

Elite
7783
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PEI, Canada
Subject: RE: SBR Utopia ---- Permanently OPEN!!

Originally posted by TSimone

Well, I got the basement and pain cave back on schedule so I can now parse out my free time better.  Signed up for the Tour of Sufferlandria.  This ought to be interesting.  Anyone else doing it?

Hi Tom!

Good luck with the Tour, I can't imagine making it through that!



2014-01-24 3:36 AM
in reply to: ratherbeswimming

Elite
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PEI, Canada
Subject: RE: SBR Utopia ---- Permanently OPEN!!

Originally posted by ratherbeswimming

Originally posted by ligersandtions

Very cool!  Sounds like a fun experience.  I'm curious if you'll notice any power gains from the new bike fit (in addition to reduced drag).

I have a set of 155mm cranks that I'm looking to sell....a little shorter than the 160-165 that you asked for, but I liked them (till I got my PM, which didn't have a 155 option). 

I may be interested. I'll let you know when I get my full write-up from the coach.

Hey Elaine, you made the pictures of the ST post about the camp!  

http://www.slowtwitch.com/Lifestyle/A_California_Aero_Camp_4145.html

 

2014-01-24 7:58 AM
in reply to: axteraa

Elite
3779
20001000500100100252525
Ontario
Subject: RE: SBR Utopia ---- Permanently OPEN!!

Originally posted by axteraa

Originally posted by ratherbeswimming

Originally posted by ligersandtions

Very cool!  Sounds like a fun experience.  I'm curious if you'll notice any power gains from the new bike fit (in addition to reduced drag).

I have a set of 155mm cranks that I'm looking to sell....a little shorter than the 160-165 that you asked for, but I liked them (till I got my PM, which didn't have a 155 option). 

I may be interested. I'll let you know when I get my full write-up from the coach.

Hey Elaine, you made the pictures of the ST post about the camp!  

http://www.slowtwitch.com/Lifestyle/A_California_Aero_Camp_4145.html

 

Image 16 - the text says a 1cm drop + different helmet + different suit = 40watt savings...That's just crazy when you think about how much training you have to put in just to see a 10watt improvement.

Image 17 - does the coach not look really stretched out in his position?

2014-01-24 8:01 AM
in reply to: GoFaster

Elite
7783
50002000500100100252525
PEI, Canada
Subject: RE: SBR Utopia ---- Permanently OPEN!!

Originally posted by GoFaster

Originally posted by axteraa

Originally posted by ratherbeswimming

Originally posted by ligersandtions

Very cool!  Sounds like a fun experience.  I'm curious if you'll notice any power gains from the new bike fit (in addition to reduced drag).

I have a set of 155mm cranks that I'm looking to sell....a little shorter than the 160-165 that you asked for, but I liked them (till I got my PM, which didn't have a 155 option). 

I may be interested. I'll let you know when I get my full write-up from the coach.

Hey Elaine, you made the pictures of the ST post about the camp!  

http://www.slowtwitch.com/Lifestyle/A_California_Aero_Camp_4145.html

 

Image 16 - the text says a 1cm drop + different helmet + different suit = 40watt savings...That's just crazy when you think about how much training you have to put in just to see a 10watt improvement.

Image 17 - does the coach not look really stretched out in his position?

http://forum.slowtwitch.com/gforum.cgi?post=4943130

A whole thread about the details.  I think somewhere in there it mentions that for some people (maybe with longer arms?) it was faster to be stretched out like that.

2014-01-24 9:37 AM
in reply to: axteraa

Veteran
2842
200050010010010025
Austin, Texas
Subject: RE: SBR Utopia ---- Permanently OPEN!!

Originally posted by axteraa

Originally posted by GoFaster

Originally posted by axteraa

Originally posted by ratherbeswimming

Originally posted by ligersandtions

Very cool!  Sounds like a fun experience.  I'm curious if you'll notice any power gains from the new bike fit (in addition to reduced drag).

I have a set of 155mm cranks that I'm looking to sell....a little shorter than the 160-165 that you asked for, but I liked them (till I got my PM, which didn't have a 155 option). 

I may be interested. I'll let you know when I get my full write-up from the coach.

Hey Elaine, you made the pictures of the ST post about the camp!  

http://www.slowtwitch.com/Lifestyle/A_California_Aero_Camp_4145.html

 

Image 16 - the text says a 1cm drop + different helmet + different suit = 40watt savings...That's just crazy when you think about how much training you have to put in just to see a 10watt improvement.

Image 17 - does the coach not look really stretched out in his position?

http://forum.slowtwitch.com/gforum.cgi?post=4943130

A whole thread about the details.  I think somewhere in there it mentions that for some people (maybe with longer arms?) it was faster to be stretched out like that.

It can definitely smooth the flow and get you down without doubling you over or having to drop the front crazy far (long arms standing you up taller just in front).  I am short and thick (not a great tri build!), but have really long arms.  Yes, just like an ape…  so I was set up this way more and more at the end of the season.

But, stretching out like that also really stresses your lats, tris and (IIRC) supra- and infra-spinatus muscles.  I had a setup more like that at a HIM last year and, after a hard swim and being stretched a bit on the bike, felt it in the "back of my armpit" for the whole run (and had a ton of pain there after the race until I found a massage tent - thank goodness!).  Not sure it slowed me down, but ANY longer and I would have been in trouble.  Did this AND narrowed the pads for a sprint, and it was terrific!

So, like all changes in a bike fit, what is fastest on the bike might not be fastest for the race (depending on what it does to the run).  Or, what works for one distance might not be as great in another...

Very cool pics!  

Matt

 

2014-01-24 11:08 AM
in reply to: mcmanusclan5

Pro
6191
50001000100252525
Subject: RE: SBR Utopia ---- Permanently OPEN!!

Originally posted by mcmanusclan5

Originally posted by axteraa

Originally posted by GoFaster

Originally posted by axteraa

Originally posted by ratherbeswimming

Originally posted by ligersandtions

Very cool!  Sounds like a fun experience.  I'm curious if you'll notice any power gains from the new bike fit (in addition to reduced drag).

I have a set of 155mm cranks that I'm looking to sell....a little shorter than the 160-165 that you asked for, but I liked them (till I got my PM, which didn't have a 155 option). 

I may be interested. I'll let you know when I get my full write-up from the coach.

Hey Elaine, you made the pictures of the ST post about the camp!  

http://www.slowtwitch.com/Lifestyle/A_California_Aero_Camp_4145.html

 

Image 16 - the text says a 1cm drop + different helmet + different suit = 40watt savings...That's just crazy when you think about how much training you have to put in just to see a 10watt improvement.

Image 17 - does the coach not look really stretched out in his position?

http://forum.slowtwitch.com/gforum.cgi?post=4943130

A whole thread about the details.  I think somewhere in there it mentions that for some people (maybe with longer arms?) it was faster to be stretched out like that.

It can definitely smooth the flow and get you down without doubling you over or having to drop the front crazy far (long arms standing you up taller just in front).  I am short and thick (not a great tri build!), but have really long arms.  Yes, just like an ape…  so I was set up this way more and more at the end of the season.

But, stretching out like that also really stresses your lats, tris and (IIRC) supra- and infra-spinatus muscles.  I had a setup more like that at a HIM last year and, after a hard swim and being stretched a bit on the bike, felt it in the "back of my armpit" for the whole run (and had a ton of pain there after the race until I found a massage tent - thank goodness!).  Not sure it slowed me down, but ANY longer and I would have been in trouble.  Did this AND narrowed the pads for a sprint, and it was terrific!

So, like all changes in a bike fit, what is fastest on the bike might not be fastest for the race (depending on what it does to the run).  Or, what works for one distance might not be as great in another...

Very cool pics!  

Matt

My second appearance in a Slowtwitch article! Woo hoo!

Seriously - if anyone has questions - hop over to that thread and ask. Brian, Heath and Jim are awesome - and I've been in contact with Brian a lot since camp. Very responsive.

Also, just checked my data - a BTA bottle was slightly more drag (+.0089 on my CdA) than a bottle on the frame for me. Aero is weird, and this camp reminded me why I avoided Computational Fluid Dynamics in engineering school...



2014-01-24 4:16 PM
in reply to: axteraa

Subject: ...
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2014-01-25 12:35 AM
in reply to: Asalzwed

Melon Presser
52116
50005000500050005000500050005000500050002000100
Subject: RE: SBR Utopia ---- Permanently OPEN!!

Originally posted by Asalzwed

Had high hopes of making it back to my faster training group last night (haven't run in that group since the end of XC season) but my body had other plans. My legs were just DEAD, which almost never happens for me, I am generally aerobic-limited. I'm giving myself some slack though because I only had one day in between my long depletion run and the workout.

Instead I did 3 x 1.5 miles @ 96 second a quarter. An that was hard enough!

Hoping maybe I can move up next week but I'm not going to force anything. It might just be that I need to run a touch slower when I am logging marathon mileage. 

You're someone who can run really fast even when your slow running is REEAAAAALLY slow--you're challenging and developing your running in enough ways (training stimuli) that going a touch slower, even overall, for marathon mileage is not likely to hurt you.

2014-01-25 12:41 AM
in reply to: IndoIronYanti

Melon Presser
52116
50005000500050005000500050005000500050002000100
Subject: RE: SBR Utopia ---- Permanently OPEN!!

I'm finally able to do a (very) little bit of easy activity coming back from an intestinal virus that was so bad they initially thought it was typhoid or dysentery. I lost a lot of blood and was producing a lot of mucus and pus as well (white blood cells), so I need to build everything back up. Usually vegan when training but the stomach's still not so good with a lot of fiber, and I desperately need the iron, so I'm back on meat (and yogurt for probiotics) for a while.

Also dealing with the stress of grief. Yeah, I know we don't post about kittens and dogs here ... so this was my KID, okay? Far more torn up about the loss of our family dog than I've ever been about any human. My mom (who has Alzheimer's), it was her empty-nest dog and really truly her kid, and trying to get her through this as well is ... it's really difficult. Stress is stress; I can't tax my body a lot training when it just doesn't have the reserves in any way at all right now.

2014-01-25 7:51 AM
in reply to: IndoIronYanti

Subject: RE: SBR Utopia ---- Permanently OPEN!!

Originally posted by IndoIronYanti

I'm finally able to do a (very) little bit of easy activity coming back from an intestinal virus that was so bad they initially thought it was typhoid or dysentery. I lost a lot of blood and was producing a lot of mucus and pus as well (white blood cells), so I need to build everything back up. Usually vegan when training but the stomach's still not so good with a lot of fiber, and I desperately need the iron, so I'm back on meat (and yogurt for probiotics) for a while.

Also dealing with the stress of grief. Yeah, I know we don't post about kittens and dogs here ... so this was my KID, okay? Far more torn up about the loss of our family dog than I've ever been about any human. My mom (who has Alzheimer's), it was her empty-nest dog and really truly her kid, and trying to get her through this as well is ... it's really difficult. Stress is stress; I can't tax my body a lot training when it just doesn't have the reserves in any way at all right now.

Glad your back and healthy 

And sorry about the puppy    We lost our "kid" a few months back and it's tough

2014-01-25 9:22 AM
in reply to: ratherbeswimming


190
100252525
Subject: RE: SBR Utopia ---- Permanently OPEN!!
Originally posted by ratherbeswimming

Also, just checked my data - a BTA bottle was slightly more drag (+.0089 on my CdA) than a bottle on the frame for me. Aero is weird, and this camp reminded me why I avoided Computational Fluid Dynamics in engineering school...




That's not "slightly" more, that's hugely more, and I wonder if something else changed.


2014-01-25 11:46 AM
in reply to: RChung

Master
5557
50005002525
, California
Subject: RE: SBR Utopia ---- Permanently OPEN!!

Originally posted by RChung
Originally posted by ratherbeswimming Also, just checked my data - a BTA bottle was slightly more drag (+.0089 on my CdA) than a bottle on the frame for me. Aero is weird, and this camp reminded me why I avoided Computational Fluid Dynamics in engineering school...
That's not "slightly" more, that's hugely more, and I wonder if something else changed.

Hey - welcome! -- we'd love to have your input on bike / power discussions anytime you drop by here.

2014-01-25 12:15 PM
in reply to: RChung

Elite
7783
50002000500100100252525
PEI, Canada
Subject: RE: SBR Utopia ---- Permanently OPEN!!

Originally posted by RChung
Originally posted by ratherbeswimming Also, just checked my data - a BTA bottle was slightly more drag (+.0089 on my CdA) than a bottle on the frame for me. Aero is weird, and this camp reminded me why I avoided Computational Fluid Dynamics in engineering school...
That's not "slightly" more, that's hugely more, and I wonder if something else changed.

Hey, welcome to our group!

It seems like people at the camp were finding the BTA bottle to be mostly a neutral change yet Cervelo's testing in the wind tunnel seemed to suggest it was a big benefit.  Do you think that is because the aero camp was basically at 0 yaw (so the wind hit the front of the bottle) while in the wind tunnel they would have some results at a higher yaw and the bottle would fill in the gap between the arms more?

I shared an apartment with two engineering students at university.  They constantly complained about the difficulty of their fluids courses...

2014-01-25 1:44 PM
in reply to: axteraa


190
100252525
Subject: RE: SBR Utopia ---- Permanently OPEN!!
Originally posted by axteraa
It seems like people at the camp were finding the BTA bottle to be mostly a neutral change yet Cervelo's testing in the wind tunnel seemed to suggest it was a big benefit.  Do you think that is because the aero camp was basically at 0 yaw (so the wind hit the front of the bottle) while in the wind tunnel they would have some results at a higher yaw and the bottle would fill in the gap between the arms more?

No, I don't think it's related to yaw. Height of the bottle relative to the arms or tilt of the arms can affect the drag, though, as well as how well the bottle fills up the space BTA. BTW, at VSC yaw isn't exactly zero -- it averages around 3 or 4 deg, depending on how fast you're going.

.0089 m^2 is close to .01 m^2, which is about what you'd see if you took a 10 cm (=4 inch) cube and added it somewhere. And that was the *net increase* from a bottle on the frame? I wonder whether the baseline changed, or something else changed in addition to the bottle location, or if the bottle was loose.
2014-01-25 1:54 PM
in reply to: RChung

Pro
6191
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Subject: RE: SBR Utopia ---- Permanently OPEN!!

Originally posted by RChung
Originally posted by axteraa It seems like people at the camp were finding the BTA bottle to be mostly a neutral change yet Cervelo's testing in the wind tunnel seemed to suggest it was a big benefit.  Do you think that is because the aero camp was basically at 0 yaw (so the wind hit the front of the bottle) while in the wind tunnel they would have some results at a higher yaw and the bottle would fill in the gap between the arms more?
No, I don't think it's related to yaw. Height of the bottle relative to the arms or tilt of the arms can affect the drag, though, as well as how well the bottle fills up the space BTA. BTW, at VSC yaw isn't exactly zero -- it averages around 3 or 4 deg, depending on how fast you're going. .0089 m^2 is close to .01 m^2, which is about what you'd see if you took a 10 cm (=4 inch) cube and added it somewhere. And that was the *net increase* from a bottle on the frame? I wonder whether the baseline changed, or something else changed in addition to the bottle location, or if the bottle was loose.

Bottle wasn't loose. We changed nothing else in the set-up. There's a chance that with user error (me!) my position changed a bit, because I was adjusting to the new fit. 

It was a net increase from the bottle on the frame - I've checked a few times. I'm wondering if the top of the bottle was head-on to the "wind", which was worse, than the air hitting the side of the bottle?

2014-01-25 4:46 PM
in reply to: ratherbeswimming


190
100252525
Subject: RE: SBR Utopia ---- Permanently OPEN!!
Originally posted by ratherbeswimming

It was a net increase from the bottle on the frame - I've checked a few times. I'm wondering if the top of the bottle was head-on to the "wind", which was worse, than the air hitting the side of the bottle?




Do you mean where the bottle is upright? Probably not. That turns the bottle into a cylinder, and cylinders have pretty terrible aero drag. In addition, the head tube of the bike is moderately cylindrical so if you put one cylinder in front of another moderate cylinder you get a lot of drag. Sometimes you can mount a cylindrical water bottle *right* up next to the head tube in which case the additional length and taper of the head tube can reduce the drag of the bottle -- but you're often better off using the bottle to fill up the empty area between the arms. That your situation is different isn't too surprising -- that happens -- what's surprising is the magnitude of the difference. .0089 m^2 more than a frame mounted bottle is a lot.


2014-01-26 2:13 PM
in reply to: RChung

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2014-01-26 2:16 PM
in reply to: Fred D

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2014-01-26 2:49 PM
in reply to: Fred D


190
100252525
Subject: RE: SBR Utopia ---- Permanently OPEN!!
Originally posted by Fred D To me it seems that you really need to test for yourself setup choices to determine if you are more aero. I don't readily have access to a wind tunnel or velodrome. I do have a power meter and should probably test this spring. Just seems you can't make a ton of assumptions about bottle location etc?


You can make general statements about position and equipment (like, "the P09 works well for most people" or "BTA bottles work well for most people" or "narrower works well for most people") but if you really want to know for sure for you you'll have to measure. You don't need a wind tunnel or a velodrome (in fact, you don't even really absolutely need a power meter) but the smaller the change you're trying to nail down the more careful you'll have to be. That is, a velodrome makes things faster and it's more controlled but the inherent accuracy and precision can be achieved if you find a wind-sheltered traffic-free road and pay slavish attention to details. If you're not the kind of person who has the time or personality to do that, you might want to pay someone for wind tunnel time or velodrome help. Nothing wrong with that -- I bought a house rather than built my own cuz I know I'm not the kind of person who wanted to do that even though I suppose I could.
2014-01-27 8:45 AM
in reply to: Fred D

Master
2621
2000500100
Mechanicsburg, PA
Subject: RE: SBR Utopia ---- Permanently OPEN!!
Originally posted by Fred DFighting another sinus infection. Been a very rough winter for illness at work where everyone is sick and it's just hard to avoid getting something. I did get a nice swim in but that will be it for today I think. I've dropped my 200 pace down to 2:40 with just a focus on EVF and working the last. Most impressive is my easy pace right now is what my allout pace was just a few months ago. Don't know how this will translate into racing results, but not too worried as I'm really enjoying swimming.
No doubt that swim fitness is making you faster. Are you just figuring out EVF or as I call it the catch and pull? Dropping the elbow is the number one error I see in the recovery and catch/pull phase of the stroke. The second is pulling through the stroke. I am glad the swimming is coming along for you. Fred do you do the thumb touch to the thigh drill? That is a great drill as it will lengthen the pull time. I have another friend that suffers from sinus infections. He discovered a few years back it was directly related to pool swimming.
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