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tcovert's Winter 2009 Mentor Group - FULL (Page 23)
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 2009-01-28 3:20 PM in reply to: #1856528 |
Champion  5781     Northridge, California |  Subject: RE: tcovert's Winter 2009 Mentor Group - FULLIMO, a lot of people overfuel during workouts (and races, for that matter). And overhydrate. (Overhydration appears to actually kill more endurance athletes than actual dehydration.) There's a certain amount of marketing that amateur endurance athletes tend to succumb to (as well as bad information from peers). I don't take in any hydration or nutrition on workouts less than 90 minutes. Now, the hydration part of it is more convenience than prudence...I could sometimes use a little fluid intake before 90 minutes. But if you aren't losing more than 2% of your body weight to fluid loss during a workout, you aren't going to become dehydrated. (It's worth testing by weighing yourself before and after multiple long workouts to get a rough baseline for how much fluid you lose per hour.) If I'm not mistaken, taking in calories during a workout of, say, 45 minutes, is going to work against weight loss...you are just providing an easier source of glycogen to your body and probably shortcircuiting fat conversion. IMO...and in my experience...there's very little reason to take in calories on much of anything less than a half marathon. And that's in a racing context, where you are likely not doing a lot of fat burning and can use the quick refuel of carbs. For a long slow training session of around an hour, fluid and electrolyte replacement are much more important than replacing calories and above that duration, you definitely can look at using nutrition, but you aren't likely to really deplete your energy stores in much less than two hours. If you use a sports drink, you'll get some calories along with fluid and electrolytes and that should be good. For half and full marathons and HIM, I've followed the general rule of taking in about 16 oz. of fluid and 100-200 cals per hour. That is only actually replacing about 20-35% of what I'm losing/burning, but the reality is that your body, during exercise, just can't process the total amount needed for a 1-to-1 replacement, so this is always an exercise in balancing performance against depletion rate. I could take in more and will adjust to thirst and fatigue, esp. in hot weather, but I prefer not to overwhelm my digestive tract. As an actual practice, in races over 10K, I take about 2-3 oz. of fluid at run aid stations (if they are every mile)...at my pace, that ends up being 15-20 oz. per hour. For long races, I take one gel every 50 minutes or so. In training, for convenience sake, I take fluid every 25 min. on long sessions (run or bike) and nutrition every 50 min. (Again, for me, this is only on sessions over 90 mins.) Where possible in races and definitely in training, I alternate fluid intake from sports drink to water and back (taking water with the gels). At least as important, IMO, as what you eat during a session, is what you eat before the session. And by "before", I don't just mean an hour or two before--I mean 12 hours or more before. A lot of people have plenty of calories available in their system that are still being processed and can at the least save some cash on gels and bars if they are conscious of that fact. (I will generally take one gel just before a marathon or long tri.) And equally important is what you take in afterwards: re-hydrating, taking in protein and electrolytes...very important. Just my very unscientific two cents. But I would recommend the following article: http://www.marathonandbeyond.com/choices/emmett.htm Pay special attention to the last paragraph of the section on "Hyperthermia" (which points out that exertion is more relevant to heatstroke than dehydration") and the section on "Hyponatremia" (low electrolytes). Edited by tcovert 2009-01-28 3:31 PM |
| 2009-01-28 4:13 PM in reply to: #1933431 |
Master 1281 Long Beach, CA | Subject: RE: tcovert's Winter 2009 Mentor Group - FULL Poster Nutbag - 2009-01-28 8:22 AM Are you going to meet up with us for lunch at noon on Saturday? Would love to see you there!Todd & Jocelyn, My bib number is 17615. If you go to the race site and and follow the "registration" link, you can enter your name to confirm your registration and it will give you your bib number. See you there! |
| 2009-01-28 4:16 PM in reply to: #1856528 |
Master 1281 Long Beach, CA | Subject: RE: tcovert's Winter 2009 Mentor Group - FULL My bib number is 18096! |
| 2009-01-28 6:11 PM in reply to: #1856528 |
Extreme Veteran 638 Carlsbad, CA | Subject: RE: tcovert's Winter 2009 Mentor Group - FULL Todd, Great stuff, thanks!!!
Jocelyn, No, not going to make it Saturday. Just getting there to pick up my packet is going to be a challenge ... I'll have my 2 year old with me for the day |
| 2009-01-28 7:08 PM in reply to: #1856528 |
Master 1585 Folsom (Sacramento), CA | Subject: RE: tcovert's Winter 2009 Mentor Group - FULL Todd, Thank you!! That is exactly what I was looking for. 70-80 minutes is the max for me for no water I think, but I think I agree with you on the fueling. I am going to try that at least and see how it goes. I just went out for a run and instead of Gallowalking it I decided to run as far as I could before I walked. I ran the whole thing! It was definitely a max effort and I may regret it tomorrow, but I now know I can run an entire 5k and it was a fairly hilly course. For those of you with any experience with LT tests and heart rate training, I posted a fairly long question on the Tri Talk board. here is the link: http://beginnertriathlete.com/discussion/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=145751 Good luck for those of you prepping for your races this weekend. I'm gonna have to find a 5k to run myself now. |
| 2009-01-29 2:37 PM in reply to: #1856528 |
Extreme Veteran 1700 Normal, Ill. | Subject: RE: tcovert's Winter 2009 Mentor Group - FULL
Just learned we get 3- to 5 days unpaid furlough in the next three months. No match on 401K and a salary freeze. Kathy says still go ahead and get the bike. So I am. parts are ordered already anyway. Life has challenges. This is just one more. Our parents made it through one of these. So can we. We are not sissies! LiveSTRONG P.S. Heading out to give blood for my cancer follow-up. Coming up on 2.5 years clean.
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| 2009-01-29 2:47 PM in reply to: #1936144 |
Champion 5781 Northridge, California | Subject: RE: tcovert's Winter 2009 Mentor Group - FULL Good luck on the follow-up, Scott! |
| 2009-01-29 3:27 PM in reply to: #1856528 |
Extreme Veteran 638 Carlsbad, CA | Subject: RE: tcovert's Winter 2009 Mentor Group - FULL |
| 2009-01-29 4:13 PM in reply to: #1856528 |
Veteran 151 | Subject: RE: tcovert's Winter 2009 Mentor Group - FULL I love your attitude Scott! Good luck! |
| 2009-01-29 7:47 PM in reply to: #1856528 |
Veteran 151 | Subject: RE: tcovert's Winter 2009 Mentor Group - FULL Todd, I like and agree with what you're saying about fueling. I'd really wait for a "multi hour" event to worry about nutrition during. Eating something small 30 mins before usually keeps me going fine. I can attest to the "weighing yourself before and after workouts". It's really the only way to correctly guage what you need in the way of hydration. Of course temp, humidity etc all play a part in how much you need to drink. I've lost 8-10lbs on a long workout, and I only weigh 150lbs. Bad! But, I learned by weighing myself, otherwise I probably wouldn't have known how behind I was getting. And as you said, take in electrolytes. I've read that any workout over an hour you need them, and it seems by my experience to be about right. (Maybe less if it's hot) Good stuff! Jake |
| 2009-01-29 10:39 PM in reply to: #1856528 |
Extreme Veteran 1700 Normal, Ill. | Subject: RE: tcovert's Winter 2009 Mentor Group - FULL
Thanks for the well wishes. I meet with the doctor on Monday. Meanwhile, the cycling coach who volunteered to help me has posted a couple of workout days that made me understand intervals in new ways. Ouch. But I feel good. On the hydration deal, I was taught to start drinking before I get thirsty. Drink water and something to replace the electrolytes. Test several before you have to ride in a long race. My health coach through work has me drinking 80 to 100 oz of water a day as a base point. Then I add as I exercise.
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| 2009-01-30 1:02 AM in reply to: #1936865 |
Champion 5781 Northridge, California | Subject: RE: tcovert's Winter 2009 Mentor Group - FULL IceManScott - 2009-01-29 8:39 PM
Thanks for the well wishes. I meet with the doctor on Monday. Meanwhile, the cycling coach who volunteered to help me has posted a couple of workout days that made me understand intervals in new ways. Ouch. But I feel good. On the hydration deal, I was taught to start drinking before I get thirsty. Drink water and something to replace the electrolytes. Test several before you have to ride in a long race. My health coach through work has me drinking 80 to 100 oz of water a day as a base point. Then I add as I exercise.
Hmm...80 to 100 oz. is a lot, but may be based on body weight. 64 oz used to be taken to be the recommended daily amount but even that's not unquestioned any more. One point I've seen raised more than once is that the water content of the food we consume tends to be neglected in these calculations. In general, though, drinking too much water in most situations isn't going to do harm, except... In long events like marathon, HIM, and IM, overhydration can quite literally be lethal especially for back of the pack participants who spend a long time on the course and drink regularly throughout. Drinking large quantities on a rigid schedule (e.g., without adjusting for thirst) is what gets people into trouble with hyponatremia. The risks of overhydrating are significant, not least because of the tendency for inexperienced participants to keep forcing fluids into themselves during endurance events whether the body needs it or not. I'd repeat what I mentioned and that Matt seconded: It's a good idea to test what your fluid loss rate is under various conditions (by weighing immediately before and after and keeping careful track of how much weight in fluid and nutrition you took in between the weighings in order to calculate how much change was due to fluid loss). That gives you a sense of how to adjust your intake beyond what you'd drink at rest. The following is not mainstream opinion, but I think it is food for thought as a dissenting opinion: http://waterindustry.org/Water-Facts/water-consumption-2.htm |
| 2009-01-30 7:33 AM in reply to: #1856528 |
Extreme Veteran 1700 Normal, Ill. | Subject: RE: tcovert's Winter 2009 Mentor Group - FULL I thought you guys who are stuck inside might want to see this. http://www.terrischneider.net/Dirty_Inspirations/index.html
* Refrain from starting training where you left off. Start with a third of the training time you were doing midseason.
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| 2009-01-30 7:54 AM in reply to: #1856528 |
Extreme Veteran 1700 Normal, Ill. | Subject: RE: tcovert's Winter 2009 Mentor Group - FULL On the water deal, this is interesting, too; http://nutrition.about.com/library/blwatercalculator.htm It calculates water needs based on weight, exercise, climate and a few other factors. It also takes into account water from food, which Todd mentioned. For me, it says just over 100 ounces. On hot centuries, I carry two extra water bottles so I never feel like I have to ration water. I seem to finish stronger than people who don't drink enough. Interesting comment at the bottom of the article Todd posted. It says yellow urine is OK. I was always told clear was the best indicator of proper hydration. But I'm not an expert on urine. Here's an article from Road Bike Rider on the topic: http://www.roadbikerider.com/articles2.htm#How%20to%20Hydrate%20for%20Better%20Performance Cycling Performance Tips warns about overhydration here: http://www.cptips.com/water.htm An interesting comment from the article; Generally, hyponatremia occurs in events of five hours or more where it may actually be a bigger problem in slower athletes who:
In high-heat and humidity conditions, sodium depletion can occur in just a couple of hours. Beginners especially, who spend longer than average on the course, need to be particularly sensitive to this condition and especially if they overdrink salt-poor fluids - which describes many sports drinks. As Todd's article says, we have to learn to listen to our bodies.
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| 2009-01-30 12:13 PM in reply to: #1856528 |
Champion 5781 Northridge, California | Subject: RE: tcovert's Winter 2009 Mentor Group - FULL Thanks, Scott...good stuff all 'round. On hyponatremia: It's certainly possible to be alarmist about it. There have only been a handful of deaths. However, it is a serious consideration because it can result in a fairly sudden crash and it causes significant mental impairment (disorientation and the like). It also tends to be more of a concern for women. I'm aware of at least one back-of-the-pack female BTer who suffered from it at last year's IM 70.3 California. She had some classic indications: severe swelling of the extremities and disorientation. (The swelling occurs when fluids leave the circulatory system due to overload--this also causes swelling of the brain, which is why the condition is so dangerous.) Generally, if you are becoming disoriented on a marathon or HIM or IM, it is a signal that your fluid/electrolyte balance may be off...you are possibly either dehydrated or hyponatremic. A pretty widely cited study found 13% of athletes studied in a Boston Marathon were hyponatremic after finishing and for nearly 1% (0.6%, actually) it was at a life-threatening level. You should never be gaining water weight during a race...if you do find it occuring, discontinue fluid intake. |
| 2009-01-31 11:36 PM in reply to: #1856528 |
Champion 5781 Northridge, California | Subject: RE: tcovert's Winter 2009 Mentor Group - FULL While we're talking hydration and nutrition, I thought I'd share both from my ~62 mile (4 hour) ride on Friday, just for kicks. Pretty much the same as on my HIM bike last summer, only my nutrition "menu" was slightly different. I try to stay on a routine of hydration every 25 minutes, nutrition every 50, adjusting volume based on thirst. On Friday, I only took nutrition to cover 3 of the anticipated 4 50 min. intervals, deciding to use sports drink for calories at the first interval. I did a weigh-in before and after to check-in with fluid loss. Temps were mild (70s) throughout. Weight before: 169.75 ~30 min before ride: Nutrigrain bar (1.3 oz, 130 cal) 1 oz. Propel (0.75 cal) 2.2 oz., 131 cal. 25 min - 1.5 oz G2 50 min - 2.0 oz G2 1:15 - 1.5 oz G2 1:40 - 1 GU gel, 3.0 oz Propel 2:05 - 1.5 oz G2 2:30 - 1/2 packet Shot Bloks, 3.5 oz Propel 2:55 - 2.0 oz G2 3:20 - 1/2 packet Shot Bloks, 3.5 oz Propel 3:45 - 2.0 oz G2 10.5 oz. G2 = 36 cal 10.0 oz Propel = 12.5 cal 2.1 oz Shot Bloks = 200 cal 1.1 oz GU gel = 100 cal 23.7 oz, 348.5 cal consumed during ride 26 oz (1.625 lbs), 480 cal total 3445 cal burned during ride 165.5 weight after ride 4.25 net weight loss (2.5% of body wt.) (5.88 lbs water loss during ride = ~1.35 lbs per hour) The only significant difference on my HIM ride was my nutrition was gel-Luna Bar-gel (rather than gel-Bloks-Bloks). |
| 2009-02-01 1:09 PM in reply to: #1856528 |
Extreme Veteran 638 Carlsbad, CA | Subject: RE: tcovert's Winter 2009 Mentor Group - FULL Woo hoo! Did the 5k this morning at 24:39 (7:52/Mile) ... that's good for me and I'm thrilled today! Don't know the standings, but I finished towards the back of the first (fast) wave, so I shouldn't have done all that bad. The saddest part, though, is that there was a 11 year-old boy and a slightly older girl that I pretty much raced the whole way. I beat them both. Barely. Made me fee veeeerrrrrry old
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| 2009-02-01 1:13 PM in reply to: #1856528 |
Extreme Veteran 638 Carlsbad, CA | Subject: RE: tcovert's Winter 2009 Mentor Group - FULL Wow, someone's going to be bummed ... I went yesterday to pick up my race packet, and after double and triple checking my bib number it was found that my number was missing and that they probably gave it to someone else by mistake. I got a new number, and they cancelled my old one. Just checked that number out of curiosity, and whomever had it was listed as "unknown runner, no age". He or she ran a 22:31, 7:15/Mile 5k |
| 2009-02-01 2:08 PM in reply to: #1939941 |
Master 1332 Vista, CA | Subject: RE: tcovert's Winter 2009 Mentor Group - FULL Way to go Morgan! That's really a great time. Congratulations!! Now we just need to hear from Jocelyn. |
| 2009-02-01 2:13 PM in reply to: #1856528 |
Master 1281 Long Beach, CA | Subject: RE: tcovert's Winter 2009 Mentor Group - FULL Here I am! Had a great day today. I got a 5k PR which shocked the heck out of me. At the mile 1 marker I had gone under 15 minutes and knew a PR was possible, so I really pushed it! What a great race! I'll let you know when the race report is up. Morgan, sorry I didn't get to meet you! Todd, thanks for coming out to cheer us. I can't believe you found me in that huge sea of thousands of runners! Good eye! |
| 2009-02-01 4:17 PM in reply to: #1856528 |
Veteran 151 | Subject: RE: tcovert's Winter 2009 Mentor Group - FULL Way to go Morgan and Jocelyn!
Looks like you both started the season on a great note! Congratulations! Jake |
| 2009-02-01 4:46 PM in reply to: #1856528 |
Extreme Veteran 638 Carlsbad, CA | Subject: RE: tcovert's Winter 2009 Mentor Group - FULL You rock, Jocelyn, NICE JOB!!! |
| 2009-02-01 6:26 PM in reply to: #1940005 |
Champion 5781 Northridge, California | Subject: RE: tcovert's Winter 2009 Mentor Group - FULL sealiongirl - 2009-02-01 12:13 PM Here I am! Had a great day today. I got a 5k PR which shocked the heck out of me. At the mile 1 marker I had gone under 15 minutes and knew a PR was possible, so I really pushed it! What a great race! I'll let you know when the race report is up. Morgan, sorry I didn't get to meet you! Todd, thanks for coming out to cheer us. I can't believe you found me in that huge sea of thousands of runners! Good eye! No prob...I was trying to spot Morgan, but don't think I did. (Actually might have seen him at the start, but no way to be sure without bib number.) Good job out there, guys...nice PR, Jocelyn! (Managed to sneak in 5 miles of walking on my "rest" day by parking at the Civic Center and not taking the sucky shuttle.) Edited by tcovert 2009-02-01 6:27 PM |
| 2009-02-01 6:28 PM in reply to: #1856528 |
Master 1332 Vista, CA | Subject: RE: tcovert's Winter 2009 Mentor Group - FULL Yeah for Jocelyn!! Congratulations!!!
Good going you two (Morgan and Jocelyn) Bask in that afterglow. |
| 2009-02-01 11:40 PM in reply to: #1856528 |
Master 1281 Long Beach, CA | Subject: RE: tcovert's Winter 2009 Mentor Group - FULL My race report is up! I warn you...I like to write and it's long! http://www.beginnertriathlete.com/discussion/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=146051
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