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2009-02-02 1:49 AM
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Subject: RE: tcovert's Winter 2009 Mentor Group - FULL

Todd and Jocelyn,

Really sorry to have missed you both, but to be honest, when I got down there I completely blanked.  My wife and kids and I were staying in Newport for my cousin's 40th b-day party the night before, and since it was just an overnighter, we left the dog at home.  Basically, I had to run the race, go back and get the family, and the drive back home to let the dog out and walk her.  I literally went straight from the finish line to my car ... and since you were both there, you know how far away I parked without shuttle service (read your report, Jocelyn, there were no shuttles from the south, either).

So ... I really wasn't thinking about anything other than runnning and getting back.  And yeah, I had a new bib number, and I was wearing a black ski cap to help stay warm, with glasses.  No way you could have recognized me.

The expo looked like a lot of fun and I really wanted to stay!  Glad you two got to meet and enjoy the day and once again ... great run, Jocelyn!!



2009-02-02 7:08 AM
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Subject: RE: tcovert's Winter 2009 Mentor Group - FULL

 

Awesome work both of you.  Sorry to hear it was a tad cold, though    

For comparison, the last time I ran a race here was the Jingle Bell Run...snow...ice...about 15 degrees.  Yes, my sympathy for you is hollow.  But, it's Gournd Hog Day and I don't care what the critter says.  It's anly 26 days to March 1, which the weathermen consider the first day of spring. 

I like my cat.  He knows what to do when we aren't home and he doesn't bother the cockatil. 

Again, great showing from you both.  I dream about a sub 25 min. 5K.   

 

 

 

2009-02-02 10:24 AM
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Subject: RE: tcovert's Winter 2009 Mentor Group - FULL
Good morning...welcome to the working week! Hope everyone had a great weekend.

I'm a little up in the air training-wise this week. I trained a bit harder than I'd planned last week (longer run on Thursday night and longer ride on Friday), but did take yesterday off. We may have rain next weekend, which was planned to be a big ride weekend, because we're going out of town on the 14th-15th and won't have our bikes. So I'm going to play it by ear, a bit, I think. Possibly move long run to Friday if it's raining and long ride to Sunday.

January ended up big for me...more bike and swim than I'd anticipated. Biggest total mileage ever and most bike and swim distance as well.

January's totals:
Bike: 28h 00m 39s - 433.73 Mi
Run: 12h 29m 55s - 91.76 Mi
Swim: 5h 12m 02s - 17150 Yd
Walking: 54m

535 total miles or 121 miles per week. Sadly, that is just a decent base distance for IM training...eventually it'll be more like 150-160 a week.

What's up for y'all this week?
2009-02-02 10:38 AM
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Subject: RE: tcovert's Winter 2009 Mentor Group - FULL

Hey Todd,

Thanks for a little Elvis Costello to start Monday off right!

Don't know yet what my goals are for this week as I haven't really thought about it since yesterday.  I do know that I'll finally be able to get some more riding in during the week because it's starting to stay light out and I can start commuting again soon, and a small group of us have planned Tuesday and Thursday lunch rides.  I'd like to be able to hit 100 miles this week, but don't know if I'll have the time.  Running, something along the lines of 15 miles would be a good week, and swimming ... well, let's just say that it's time to get back in the  pool!

This is going to be a tough spring for me ... what seems to typically be peak training and racing for most, spring and early summer for me will be mostly work and work travel.  I'll keep on pushing myself and racing when I can (seems all the races I want to do are on big work weekends), but my only realistic expectation right now is staying fit and having fun at the events I can make.  And I feel good about that!

Last night I was thinking about all of this and realizing that not all that much is going to change in my personal and work lives over the coming years, and I'm not all of a sudden going to have all this extra free time to train for longer distances, so I'm kind of resolved, at this point, to just focusing on mostly sprints and maybe one Oly a year, and just getting really good at them.  So there you have it ... a clear resolve and a lot of my own personal questions about what I want out of all this answered.  Really, really happy with where everything is going!

2009-02-02 12:34 PM
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Subject: RE: tcovert's Winter 2009 Mentor Group - FULL
Poster Nutbag - 2009-02-02 8:38 AM

Hey Todd,

Thanks for a little Elvis Costello to start Monday off right!



Glad somebody caught that...
2009-02-02 12:38 PM
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Subject: RE: tcovert's Winter 2009 Mentor Group - FULL
Good post, Morgan...I think it's really important to keep expectations grounded within, not necessarily what is your ultimate potential if all the stars (family, professional, health, whatever) were aligned, but what will keep you enjoying the experience of training and competing...whatever level that is. I think most people do keep things grounded like that, but sometimes people set themselves up with unrealistic expectations and end up resenting either the training or--worse--the things keeping them from training as much as they wish they could.


2009-02-02 4:48 PM
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Subject: RE: tcovert's Winter 2009 Mentor Group - FULL

I'm pumped up and also starting a long term training plan for a June tri this week. Plan is

  • 3 runs: 1 treadmill, 1 trail, and 1 road
  • 2 rides: 1 commute and 1 regular
  • 2 pool swims

However, this week could get dicey. Today I'm sore, so no training yet. Thursday is my daughter's birthday and we have plans. Also we're having friends over on Friday. Both days will be a challenge to fit in training. This weekend my husband will be in Catalina (if it doesn't rain) and with our pool out of commission, running is the only sport I can do with the kids with me. So, it could get sticky, but I'm hoping for the best!

2009-02-02 9:23 PM
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Subject: RE: tcovert's Winter 2009 Mentor Group - FULL

 

This week is unusual for me.  The new cycling coach through VisionQuest has me doing two power tests Tuesday and Thursday on Computrainers.  First is 45 mins long and hard.  Second is sprint.  No running yet since Saturday.  No swimming in the morning.  All PT until the tests.  I went out and bought a 20 pound kettle bell (didn't know what it was until last Friday) and a medicine ball so I can do more here in the weight room/man cave.  Working out well so far. 

I'll let you know how this thing goes with the power meter all hooked up .  So hi tech.

And, I'm 2.5 years clean of cancer as of today's visit with my doctor. He gave me a green light to do what I wanted...up to and including an HIM this year if I think I can do it with consultation here and the support group on line.  We shall see.  Meanwhile, June sprint, July Oly. 

Thanks all for your help and encouragement. 

 

 

2009-02-02 9:37 PM
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Scott,

  Congrats on 2.5 years! Clean bill of health and HIM bound! I can't wait to see you complete your goals.

 For me this week:

 Bike x3

 Run x3

 weights x2

 Core x2

My knee is doing better and better. I picked up the pace just a little on a run this last week and felt fine. I might do a little longer run, 4-5 miles later in the week if things continue to feel okay.

2009-02-02 10:31 PM
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Subject: RE: tcovert's Winter 2009 Mentor Group - FULL
IceManScott - 2009-02-02 7:23 PM

 


And, I'm 2.5 years clean of cancer as of today's visit with my doctor. He gave me a green light to do what I wanted...up to and including an HIM this year if I think I can do it with consultation here and the support group on line.  We shall see.  Meanwhile, June sprint, July Oly. 

Thanks all for your help and encouragement. 

 

Yeah!! So glad for the news, Scott. Must always be a relief when you get those results. HIM bound, then??

2009-02-03 1:09 AM
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Subject: RE: tcovert's Winter 2009 Mentor Group - FULL
Good news, Scott...glad to hear it


2009-02-03 6:41 AM
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Subject: RE: tcovert's Winter 2009 Mentor Group - FULL

I wish I were as confident as everyone else I can be ready for a HIM this year.  I'm a positive guy overall especially since the cancer - the ultimate victory is mine with the right attitude and all that - but with a limiter as a run and staring 13 miles in the face, that's a bunch.  I suspect that you experienced people have found that experience breeds confidence.  Other than riding a couple of relays on a LiveSTRONG team, I haven't done anything but train. I need to build myself up to do longer distances on the run and then we shall see.

Im in Masters swimming, I have a cycling coach and soon the Lake Run Club starts a program designed to take intermediate runners who can do a 5K up to 8 miles by early May when they have their Lake Run around one of the lakes here.  I'm going to join and get to as many of them as I can and insert the distances of the sessions I can't make into my normal training.  A day has only so many hours and I have to hit an AA meeting 6 or 7 times a week, go to work and figure in the riding and swimming, too.  Somewhere in here I also have to build a bike when the parts get here.  Oh, and I have a wonderful marriage to enjoy.  Busy doesn't say it.  Plus, they just announced four days unpaid furlough between now and April 15 here at the newspaper.  Everyone has to do it.   

Good thing meditation is part of the AA program.  Keeps me centered.  The bike coach also has me doing more PT, too and I noticed that has a meditative quality to it. 

I don't really stress about things anymore.  But having the cancer test behind me again relieved a weight, I can tell already today. This afternoon is the Computrainer testing.  I have to ride a simulated Coors Classic course up in the mountains.  One of the climbs is called the Wall.  Should be a gas, eh?  :/



Edited by IceManScott 2009-02-03 2:19 PM
2009-02-03 10:16 AM
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Subject: RE: tcovert's Winter 2009 Mentor Group - FULL
For whatever its worth, I'd always recommend giving short shrift to the swim when time is an issue. Now that's been workable for me to some degree because I was a swimmer in HS, but--then again--that was 30 years ago and I wasn't that good. But I'd say that anyone who has reached the point where they can swim at least 1500 yds nonstop, probably can cut back to one quality swim a week (whether just one endurance swim or an open water session or a masters class) and get by in a HIM. Swimming is just so much proportionately less total energy spent in a triathlon than run and bike that it doesn't reward the effort as much--the key is to feel that you are confident in the water and economical with stroke mechanics. I got through my HIM on one swim a week and will do no more than two a week for most of my IM training. More is better, but there are--as Scott points out--only so many hours in a week.
2009-02-03 10:29 AM
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Subject: RE: tcovert's Winter 2009 Mentor Group - FULL

So Todd, a question for you based on your last post. Where then should the bulk of the time be spent in training for an Oly or HIM, in your opinion? I know we spend the most time on the bike, but you've got to be able to run or do a walk/run combo for the last third. I'm kind of answering my own question here, maybe, but lots of bricks to get the legs used to bike then run??

 I won't be really starting my HIM training until later in the spring, but was curious about what you thought.

 

2009-02-03 11:27 AM
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Subject: RE: tcovert's Winter 2009 Mentor Group - FULL

Hey Lynn,

You got a long ride planned for Sunday, or early Saturday morning? Since I flaked on trying to meet up with Todd and Jocelyn last Sunday, I'm going to make a better effort to meet you all and, well, we're neighbors.  LET'S RIDE!

I've got to be showered and out the door with family on Saturday morning (petting zoo in San Jaun Capistrano), but I can fit in a ride if we start early.  Sunday is wide open ... you in?

2009-02-03 11:59 AM
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Subject: RE: tcovert's Winter 2009 Mentor Group - FULL
lmscozz - 2009-02-03 8:29 AM

So Todd, a question for you based on your last post. Where then should the bulk of the time be spent in training for an Oly or HIM, in your opinion? I know we spend the most time on the bike, but you've got to be able to run or do a walk/run combo for the last third. I'm kind of answering my own question here, maybe, but lots of bricks to get the legs used to bike then run??

 I won't be really starting my HIM training until later in the spring, but was curious about what you thought.

 



I don't do many bricks, frankly, and the conventional wisdom (this week, anyhow...LOL) seems to be that they aren't that beneficial...at least not long runs off the bike. I do them occasionally just to sort of remind myself of the way the transition feels mostly.

Okay...very long and rambling response follows...kind of all my thoughts on training priorities...if you have a coach or a plan set-in-concrete, you can probably skip it.

Look, my general attitude is this: You can, to some degree, purchase time on the bike if you have the cash and willingness to spend it. You can't buy speed on the run. So, for me, the run is the place where performance really, really, has to be earned. (The swim, too, but the swim just isn't as big a part of triathlon as the run.) Most novice triathletes...IMO...don't train the run enough and alot of them seem intimidated by running in general. Understandable, I'd say, but when I talk running with triathletes and look at the relationship between logs and race performances here on BT, I see a lot of people logging day after day after day of relatively similar distances at relatively similar paces (often driven by HR monitors, which I think probably should be thrown away) and then seeing their tri runs become something that they get through rather than being able to excel at.

So--and this is 100% personal opinion and personal experience--I'd always recommend doing the traditional approach to improving on the run: 1. Build your base (through a patient process of building from no miles to being able to handle at least 30 miles a week...i.e., at least six runs averaging 5 miles each), and, as you get near that volume, 2. Start to build in specificity in terms of one long run per week and one speed run per week. You'll see all sorts of opinions about that here on BT, but I believe in it and I see alot of support for it from people here who are solid runners. Too many people...again, IMO...try to get to too great a distance too quickly and really don't learn to run along the way. They just learn to survive the "run" segment of a triathlon. Which is fine if your sole objective is to finish a triathlon, but seems to me like not a great investment in lifetime fitness.

But, not everyone wants to be a runner, so...

If you've jumped into triathlon and you have no running history, 6 runs a week (I used to do 7, each and every week, btw), isn't feasible. So try to do four. If you have the time, start by doing a 10-15 minute walk to warmup, then run for as long as you feel you can (whether it's 30 seconds or 30 minutes), then walk to cool down...aiming for a total of at least 30 minutes (warmup and cool down included) initially. The key is to build that sustained run gradually. It took me six months to get from 30 seconds to 30 minutes, just so you know. But from there, things really took off for me. I entered my first 10K on a whim less than 3 months later...expecting to take an hour...and did it in 49 minutes. First race in over 25 years and longest of my life and it went well because I'd gotten used to running again gradually, but persistently.

Don't get stuck in a rut...mix things up...run a hill to force yourself to work differently. Another tactic to check in on progress is to do an occasional time trial. Early on, I did weekly half mile runs for time. It was a real eye opener for me the first time I decided to try a mile for time...almost didn't finish! Took me about 10 minutes (mind you, 25 years before, I'd been a half miler in HS track) and I wanted to die. But it showed me where I was...and that I could do it if I pushed through the discomfort. (Two years later, I could run that same course in about 6 minutes flat...and I'm almost 50 and I have chronic tendonitis in my left ankle...so I really think almost anyone can do it.)

Notice use of "discomfort": I want to distinguish that from "pain". Not that an all-out anaerobic effort doesn't "hurt", but just to keep separate the pain of actual injury--where you need to back off of training--and the "OMG, I'm gonna puke" pain of max effort. I only subject myself to that once a month or so these days, but getting through that sort of workout and coming back the next day is really one key to improving in a discipline, I think. I've certainly found it interesting to watch my wife's development in that regard, coming from zero running background less than three years ago to a 2:15 half mary last summer and getting better at it all the time.

For those with the base in hand already (like Lynn), I think you do one long run, two intermediate runs and one speed run (tempo, threshold, intervals, or just some semblance of a race pace) each week. Have a goal for every run. Occasional bricks are fine, but they won't improve your run as much as run-specific workouts will, IMO.

Balancing everything with the bike is the hard part. I'm still struggling with that. I've been really fortunate to have had job situations where I could squeeze in the mileage, even if it meant bike commuting to do it. But I haven't done the power work I need to do: Not enough hills or speed workouts. And it shows in my results. I've been reluctant over the last two years to do more than one day a week with two workouts, but that's changed now to two days, and--eventually--probably will become three (so I can do four runs, four rides and two swims).

My weeks during HIM training were pretty consistent: 4 rides, 3 runs, 1 swim. I got to a 5:36 at Vineman 70.3 with that schedule. The key was mixing up the characteristics of the workouts so that I was building both power and endurance. The more time you have, the easier that is. When you are limited, you have to set priorities. I sacrificed speed on the bike and the swim, for endurance on both and speed and endurance on the run. This year, I'm trying to get a bit faster on the bike and the swim and that's meant a second swim (speed on Thursday, distance on Saturday) and a hill set on the bike.

Hope that made some kind of sense. Sorry if it was a bit of a ramble.


2009-02-03 12:11 PM
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Subject: RE: tcovert's Winter 2009 Mentor Group - FULL

scott- you are my hero.  cancer free and working the program while contemplating a HIM.  Based on the first two items i think you can handle the challenge.  go!

I've been out of the loop for a bit with family issues and the training has gone all outta whack but, i'm semi-back or as much as i can be right now.  i've figured out that my focus is fuzzy so i need to work on clearing it up and tackle the family stuff before i can expect to see better training results.

my head needs clarity before my body can follow.  enjoy the week!

 

2009-02-03 10:20 PM
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I did the 40 min drill to figure my FTP with my cycling coach tonight.  Power Tap ...Computrainer...the whole works.  FTP=234.  Not bad for an old man. 

I will tell say that the ability to know exactly what your watts are and calories burned is an amazing deal.  Also being able to "ride" preset courses...it was awesome.  This one was from the old Coors Classic.  Very mountainous.  The key was to listen to his instructions and stay right at the wattage he wanted..He was able to push me to really incredible heights.  I'm learning so much. 

I would never be able to afford this man.  He is with Robbie Ventura's VisionQuest ...He lives in town, read my stuff in the paper, met me and a few months later, just recently, called and volunteered to help me for nothing.  He said I was an inspiration and he wanted to help.  Pretty cool.  I was speechless.  I still am.

 



Edited by IceManScott 2009-02-04 9:07 AM
2009-02-03 11:16 PM
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In regard to Todd's post.  You know I always hear age group athletes saying "put your time into the bike" It makes sense that your bike fitness could give you fresher legs.....I get that. However, I've been thinking for a while that the run gets neglected. You don't see elites, even among the age groupers, neglecting it.  I know in the days of Dave Scott and Mark Allen, the run was how you won a race. Then Norman Stadler came along with his record 4:18 or something, Ironman bike and beat all the faster runners, now people are going to put on miles on the bike.

For what we're trying to accomplish, I agree with what Todd said 100%. It's nice to see someone else who thinks that.

Jake

2009-02-04 9:11 AM
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I can tell you that as a "completer" not a competer who still wants the best time I can, I have to focus on the bike which offers my best chance to cut the most time and the run, where I have to be respectable.  The swim, I just enjoy and have to cut time there too if I hope to do the IM.  So much for spare time. 

Todd, I really learn a lot from your shares.  You have a lot of experience and a gift for sharing it so it's understandable.  And, I get a lot from the others here who are learning like I am. The shared experiences really cut the learning curve, I think.   

 

2009-02-04 10:40 AM
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Jake1008 - 2009-02-03 9:16 PM

In regard to Todd's post.  You know I always hear age group athletes saying "put your time into the bike" It makes sense that your bike fitness could give you fresher legs.....I get that. However, I've been thinking for a while that the run gets neglected. You don't see elites, even among the age groupers, neglecting it.  I know in the days of Dave Scott and Mark Allen, the run was how you won a race. Then Norman Stadler came along with his record 4:18 or something, Ironman bike and beat all the faster runners, now people are going to put on miles on the bike.

For what we're trying to accomplish, I agree with what Todd said 100%. It's nice to see someone else who thinks that.

Jake



Well, it's all a balance, of course: The bike takes up the majority of the day (whether in a sprint or an IM) and you have to be prepared to spend that time in the saddle AND still have something left afterwards. And one thing that is really insidious about the bike is that--unlike on the run segment--you can't realistically walk the bike. So, any triathlete who neglects the bike does so at his/her peril. The bike is certainly my limiter and my response to that is seen in my numbers in January.

However, something I said in another thread on BT holds here: If you spend all that time training on the bike to "have something left," the question is "Left for what, exactly?" And that's where, I'd say, Jake, you are certainly looking at this from the same perspective I am. I do believe a lot of people really sell themselves short in run training and in a number of ways. There's so much focus on systems that actually disconnect the participant from what's happening in her or his body in the moment on the run (IPods, for example, but also, frankly, HR monitors the way alot of folks use them...both are excellent learning tools, but tend to become security blankets or even fetishes for too many people, IMO). I really do think...as Jake is saying as well, I think...that spending time learning to embrace running can only make the experience of triathlon more fulfilling, no matter what one's goals are. Just my .02, as always, of course.


2009-02-04 11:04 AM
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Subject: RE: tcovert's Winter 2009 Mentor Group - FULL

While the bike is certainly my strong point, I'm starting to get better at the run and, *EGAD*, I'm kind of starting to enjoy it!  I don't think I've yet turned the corner that I did on the bike, with regard to a strong running base, but I feel I'm not too far away.

For my first two tris, I stupidly played soccer on the Friday night before the races, and each time I injured my quads.  Made the run even harder and slower, but the underlying point is that I hadn't really trained for the run at all and it showed.  In my limited view, the entire race is decided by the run.  Could be very wrong on that, but I know that for me, the most opportunity to shave time is going to be on the run.

Also, I now LOVE my thumps, my thumps, my lovely manly thumps!

 

Sorry, couldn't resist   And I NEVER wear them on the bike.



Edited by Poster Nutbag 2009-02-04 11:05 AM
2009-02-04 12:44 PM
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Subject: RE: tcovert's Winter 2009 Mentor Group - FULL

Aloha all

I have been absent past 12 days or so due to hard times dealing with family and friends illness. Still, unlike last time, training stayed dead on course. This is in no part due to this group so thank you all.

My nutrition wavered one heck of a lot but I will weigh in on Monday and see the damage then. (I may need to re-jig goals a little.

Well done to the racers, didn't they do well? I am jealous. I am stoked we are still all cancer free and (even though it may not make to much difference) I do keep you guys in my thoughts even when I am not around.

I registered for 4 sprints now right up to September so that should keep me going for the season and now looking for ideas to keep me going into the winter. Maybe do a run on a half marathon course locally in early December. I have Kona to look forward to in December then make a plan for a February event to make me train over the winter.

I looked at last years two sprints and I remembered how stoked I was at the improvement in my time over the two races. Now I am at about the level I was for the first Sprint (probably worse) so I am looking to try and crack 120 mins for the march event. But I am hoping to get close to 90 mins by September. (And I thought I wasn't competitive anymore! LOL)

I also am going to get a Powertap as soon as I can afford as I really want to make sure I improve the bike. (Okay okay, I know losing weight will make most difference) Was also looking at the possibility of a coach if I am going to use power to train as I can't decipher all the info. Not sure yet and have to get cash together to afford it.

Just going through servicing my trusty stead just now as I don't want to leave it at the bike shop while they do it. Why does it take LBS 3 days to service a bike, especially if I specify what they are to so?

Also I decided that I will lay off the running till the March Sprint if need be to see if I can get this Plantar fashiitis to clear up. In the mean time I will take the run workouts and do a bike session at the same effort for twice the time of the run session. - Does this sound smart to anyone out there? The bike doesn't seem to aggravate the PF. I am getting sure it is the inserts in my trainers and shoes causing this. I am going to leave them out for a week and see what the effect is and decide if I should replace them or leave them out longer.

I will read the forum and look at all of your logs in the next few days.

Take care all.

2009-02-04 1:22 PM
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I'm starting to enjoy the run too,  mostly for what it does for me.  I'm also liking the challenge of getting off the bike and running.  Makes me feel good about myself, if that makes sense.  There is certainly value in that. 

I'm doing intervals once a week, a moderate run and then an easy one.  Ijoin a running program by the local running club in mid-month.  Hopefully, that will stretch me up to 8 miles when done.  I figure the longer I can run, the faster I can do shorter runs. 

 

 

2009-02-04 1:55 PM
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Subject: RE: tcovert's Winter 2009 Mentor Group - FULL
Paul:

Definitely lay off the running for the PF. If you can tolerate it and you want a break from the biking, you could try some walking, but I know that aggravated my wife's PF when she had it, so that may not be a possibility. Inserts may very well be contributing.
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