Ironman Coeur d'Alene : Official Thread (Page 25)

I usually follow a 10% rule for increasing distance on my long run but I don't worry about big jumps in my overall weekly distance.  Most of my midweek runs are self-limiting in that I can't spare any more time on a work day.  If I really push the volume too fast, my knees let me know it - usually around Wednesday

Right now I'm fine with it but when I was building up, I'd swap my Monday or Wednesday short run out and do a bike ride instead.

Hey, I just finished the Austin Longhorn HIM yesterday.  I missed my goal by 7 minutes, but I'm still thrilled with my time though.  What does a HIM time typically equate to a full IM time?  Is there a rule of thumb (HIM x2 + X minutes/hours).  I did Longhorn in 5:06:59.    

Anyway, can someone help me with where to stay for CdA?  Any real estate companies or hotels that you recommend?  Wife and kids will be with me.    

Thanks in advance. 

Congrats, great time!

Welcome back, that plan should give you an incredible base.

Let the journey begin!

I've most often seen HIM x 2 + 1 hr, given similar courses/weather.  That assumes you put in the training between the HIM and the IM.  But don't give too much consideration to those estimates... you have no idea what kind of fitness gains are possible between now and then... only way to find out is to train consistently and smart between now and then and then pace yourself based on your present fitness. 

N=1 example... in May 2010 I PRed my HIM distance (by nearly an hour) with a time of 4:55:32.  Using the formula above, that means I should have been able to go about 10:50 in an IM with a similar course profile.  2 months after the HIM I did lake placid, which was a harder course, in 10:20. 

Yeah but your an animal  

your gains in the last year were flat out amazing, from where you were to where you got, tons of hard work and it paid off

No doubt I put in the work and (due to major weight loss) had a relatively fast progression in one year... perhaps faster than "fitness" alone could explain.  Maybe if I had stayed the same wieght between the two races the 2xHIM+1HR formula would have been closer for me?

Ultimately, my point is not to put yourself into a box (or stretch too far/hard to get into that box) based on some random formula.  We all have different capacities for training and recovery, and different schedules that dictate our ability to train.  For some people the formula may result in not pushing to your full potential.  For others, it may tempt them to go too hard, which is the number one way to ruin your day IMHO.  The thing to remember (I try to remind myself of this constantly) is that my training TODAY should be based on my fitness TODAY.  Not based on what I did in an HIM last year at peak fitness.  Not based on what my goal IM time is.  But based on my tested fitness.

Train at that level, and you will adapt to be slightly faster.  Then retest and train at that level, and you will adapt to be slightly faster.  Repeat repeat repeat.  That's your best recipe to make as many gains as possible with as little risk of injury as possible.  For several people in this thread, IM training will be plagued by injuries that result from doing too much too fast because they had to be doing 100 mile bike rides by X date, or had to get their long run to 20 because that's what they did when marathon training, etc.  Injury from training too hard more than cancels out any fitness gained from that training... plus there will be fitness lost while you recover.

I know (and appreciate) that you were giving me props.  But don't think that the progress I made in a year is out of reach for the average IMer.  Sure we all have different genetic potential - I'm not saying eveyrone is capable of 10:XX IM.  But I am saying almost everyone is capable of getting quite a bit faster than they were last year.  Most of us have a big chunk of weight we've admitted we need to lose.  Actually doing it will make a HUGE difference on race day.  We should be thinking about race day NOW, not in February.  I'm not saying you need to do mega volume now, but you should be making sure you show up to the spring in shape and feeling fresh, not needing to get into shape or fighting injury.  I plan to use this "off season" to very conservatively build a base.  For everyone running a fall/winter/spring marathon, I recommend extra caution to not let the urgency of training for that race result in showing up to your IM build with nagging injuries.  You don't need to run 22 miles 3 times to run a marathon, especially if your total weekly mileage is high because of consistency/repeatability (and resulting low recovery needs and lack of injury).  I ran a 3:30 IM marathon and my longest runs were 16, 17, and 18 miles (once each)... but my month averages were 150, 170, 180, 90 (life crisis), 150, 160, in the 6 months preceding the race.  And lest it sound too "animal"ish... my stand-alone marathon PR prior to that was 4:24.  Point is that I'm naturally a very average at best runner, not an animal.  But weight loss and smart training really did move me to the pointy end of the field.

Sorry to think out loud so much.  Hope it's not preachy... just sharing my experience hoping it encourages people to think about their training before drinking any cool-aid.

I will echo JoshKaptur's post by saying that I am thinking about/planning for CdA NOW instead of springtime. I started masters swim this week, and I swear that if this does not make me faster, I am quitting the sport. Masters classes have kicked my butt harder than any other stand alone workout I have done. Crazy volume is not necessary for the winter, I am hovering around 10-12 hours a week, but I believe that specific training is a must. Focus on your weaknesses and make every session count (no "junk" miles). That being said, I hope to be ready to hit the ground running come Febuary

Daniel - you're right on so many levels.  One thing I didn't mention, and am not doing personally myself even though I probably should, is focus on my weakness right now.  For me it is definitely the swim, but I just really don't enjoy swimming.  But I think you are smart to be doing that and I'd recommend having an 8-12 week block focusing on your weakness right now to anyone if they asked me for advice.

As to your point about volume - if we all just trained 10-12 hours a week year round we would be in phenomenal shape compared to where we so often get on the roller coaster most of us ride... peak fitness, followed by what I call "valley fitness"

I have lots of thoughts on "junk miles" that I'll save for another time.  If swim is your weakness then I agree there is such a thing as junk yardage - go do hard sets and work on your form, but don't just swim hundreds of thousands of yards reinforcing bad habits.  If bike is your weakness, I agree there isn't much more you could do to better that than get out of multi-hour zone 2 workouts and really kill it with lots of shorter z4/5 efforts.  If run is your weakness, I'll go on record as saying that I don't think there is such a thing as junk miles at the mileage that 99.9% of triathletes get to.  I could go into more detail as to why some other time, but for now I'll just share that I plan to run a better marathon at CdA than my 3:30 @ lake placid, and I'm going to do it by increasing my volume over what I did last year on the run (I'd like to get to several 180-200 mile months). 

quad post, wow

Edited by 3Aims 2010-10-19 9:25 AM

quad post, wow

Edited by 3Aims 2010-10-19 9:25 AM

quad post, wow

Edited by 3Aims 2010-10-19 9:25 AM

I joined a masters group 90 days ago with the hope of "finding my stroke".  I could barely do 500M in the open water and it would take me 15+ minutes to swim it and I would be totally spent coming out of the water.  I did my longest open water at Longhorn 70.3 on Sunday and I did it in 34 minutes (1:49/100 pace) while giving it 60-70% effort.  I could have done a second loop no problem at the same pace.  I'm still the slowest swimer in my masters group, but if you find the right one if pays huge dividends.  I would never practice this hard in the pool on my own.      
   

Preach on and pass the cool-aid.

I think that there are a lot of neat sounding ideas and terms that apply to elite athletes but not really to the normal age grouper.  Junk miles is one of these. 

The last two years I have done a bike focused training block at the beginning of the year that invloved 100 rides in 100 days.  Most of these rides were done on a trainer or stationary bike.  A lot of these rides were in the 45 to 60 minute range.  Hardly any of them were above zone 2.  Most of them fit the description of "junk miles".  However, these junk miles set up my last 12-week of training so I could focus on longer rides and a faster pace than I could have riden without these base miles.   This years plan is the junk up my run volume. 

I think I may have misquoted by saying junk miles. What I mean, and I guess this could apply to multiple points of my post, is that I want my sessions to count. 10 hours a week is where I would like to stay for my sanity sake. That being said, every hour needs to have a specific focus. Granted, I definitely intend to go out for long rides/runs "because I feel like it". Same thing with skipping a workout, I dont want to obsess this early in the game.

180-200 mile months is amazing, I was having trouble hitting or staying above 100 during IMKY training this summer. I know the simple answer is to just run more, but how do you mentally handle the concept behind running that much? I know I can physically take it, but it would be very difficult for me to run that much and not go crazy...or bored...That being said, I feel like the only way for me to get faster with running is to up my volume (speedwork aside)

We're in total agreement if by "junk miles" you mean a workout that doesn't have a purpose.  Every mile should have a purpose... though sometimes that purpose is building durability/economy/efficiency through high volume and low intensity, so that when you add the intesnity your body can handle it without injury

Running high mileage was not as hard mentally as I expected it to be.  I had previously trained for a few marathons and HIMs at the volume you indicate... 100 miles a month would have been a good month.  But I found that the more I run (which required slowing down at first), the more I loved it.  It just became part of me.  Every morning, without fail, I would wake up and run 4-8 miles.  On tuesday morning's I'd do my long run.  Some days I'd be overwhelmed by the prospect of 8 miles but 4 in the morning and 4 in the evening was a piece of cake.  That left me room to have a long bike on Saturday, and a quality long run mid-week on fresh legs.  That also left me evenings for shorter bikes and swims.

So I guess the answer, for me, to high mileage is to run 6-7 days a week, and 7-9 times a week... and no single workout other than your long run will really be that taxing, either physically or mentally.  Might sound awful from where you're at (been there myself)... but I found, and lots of others I know who have done similar have found, that it's not drudgery at all.  But you have to experience that to believe it

The hardest part mentally, especially in the winter, is the LAUNDRY!

Edited by JoshKaptur 2010-10-19 10:59 AM

Lots of good advice Josh!  Did you work with a coach or follow a specific plan? 

I really want to focus on my Bike this winter.  For me, that is my weakness, in large part because I just have not done the work to get fast.  Every season, I bike from about march - september and take the rest of the year essentially off.  This is in large part to do:
It gets dark early
bad weather
I hate the trainer
I feel like biking just takes so much more time, and i like running better

I also have never done a structured interval program on the trainer, which is why I want to start with Jorge's plan, probably in early December (after I run Seattle Marathon). 

I plan to use december to recover from the marathon, while getting on the bike and to the pool 3x/week each (or something to that effect), to get back into shape for those sports before I really kick of IM training in January.



Edited by ultrahip_00 2010-10-19 11:12 AM

I think you're right on here.


Edited by trinitwit 2010-10-19 11:59 AM

I received mine about a week ago. 

I just got mine as well last week and I am in Oregon.

Need some advice...

The wife and I attempted our first half this last weekend with some unexpected results (short story me + car = ER)

http://www.beginnertriathlete.com/discussion/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=230963&start=1

And I'm fine.  A bit dizzy and sore but all things considered I'm lucky.

Anyway, I know we don't *have* to do a half before CdA but we really want to.  We both felt real good (up until my head connected with the truck) and could have finished the half easily and better than we had expected.  So it's not a confidence thing.  It's a "checking it off the list" thing.  I know, it's kind of OCD...

Problem is finding an early season half to get in before CdA.  We have some options but wanted to know how close would you cut it?

4 weeks?  6 weeks?  8 weeks?  More?

ETA: And I know this is different for every person and every race but looking for a general consensus and rule of thumb.

Edited by TriRSquared 2010-10-21 10:44 AM

Glad to hear you're okay!  I'm planning on doing the Wildflower long course, which is May 1.  I'm going to treat it as a dress rehearsal as far as pacing, nutrition, and clothing go.