LaurenSU02's group - CLOSED! (Page 26)

Your Z5 is 90-100% of WHAT?  Sounds like max HR.  If that's the case, you are not dealing with anything usefull.  Sorry to be the one to break the news to you. 

Max HR is interesting but useless information.  Furthermore, any formulas to determine them are never accurate unless by pure coincendence.  FURTHERMORE, getting an accurate max HR is VERY difficult and painfull.  So many people don't even try to find it.

In general, there are two camps on this.  MOST on BT use the LT (lactate threshold) method to determine HR zones.  Your LT is unique to you, and can't be found by any formulas.  You have to be tested for them.  BUT, the good news is, you can test yourself pretty easily.  I can tell you more if you want, but look up "LT field tests" or "LT testing".  You will need to do one for biking and one for running.  Then there is the HR zones section in your logs.  You can put in your LT and it will spit out your zones.

The other camp is RPE (rate of percieved effort) or Pace group.  You figure what your10k pace or some other race pace and use a spreadsheet to determine paces for your workouts, recover, easy, hard, interval, etc..... like mcmillans or something like that.  Again, I can get you the link.....

Then there is the Maffetone, the Karvonen, and some other aged based methods.  I looked at them all, and found after years, that the LT method is best.  I would say that I am in the majority with the conclusion.

SO, it sounds like your HR zones are off if you can keep a high pace for that long.  Tell you what, when I'm in zone 5, I'm feeling it for sure.  I can maybe keep 5a going for a little while in a race (maybe an entire 5k) but 5b or 5c is only a couple minutes, tops.

I would be happy to discuss this further - I love the topic.  But I know just enough to be dangerous!  There are several people here on BT that are really knowledable.

Also, check d3multisports.com (a sponsor of this site so it's ok to send you there!).  They have a great set of articles that can help you out.

i'm with Jim. the general consensus on BT is that max HR is garbage. which it is. I use a combination of HR zones for running that I got by testing my LT (on my own, i used a local 5K), RPE, and mcmillan's running calculator to do my run training.

i'm not that advanced for biking yet, i've never done an LT test and i mostly just try and get . but in general, your biking zones will be significantly lower than your running zones.

General Rule of thumb is about 10 BPM lower for biking LT than running LT.  I never did a bike time trial and used races to determine my running LT and then started to use an LT 10 bpm lower for the bike.  I ended up going up three beat so I'm only 7 different now (180 BPM for running lt and 173 for biking LT).  This is based on lots of data study and races and seems about right.  I figure if my zones are a couple beats high or low, if I train in the middle of the zone, I'm in the right place.

In all reality, I should retest and see where I'm at.

x2 on pretty much everything Jim said (10 bpm difference between bike and run, max HR is useless, etc.).

This is a great thread to reference when doing an LT test and determining zones:

http://www.beginnertriathlete.com/discussion/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=25733&start=1

Also, if you were using what your max HR was in your last workout (which I think is what you said you did), chances are the highest HR you had achieved in that last workout was LTish. So, you prob weren't spending 30 mins in zone 5, but rather 30 mins in zone 3ish (tempo) or something.

Let me know if you have any questions about doing the LT test. They aren't fun. Make sure you're well rested (i.e., do it following an EZ day or two or at the end of a rest/recovery week), and go hard.

 Ok, so here is what I did.  I took my max heart rate on my bike yesterday (202) and used that as my max.  I then used my RHR of 63 to get my range (139).  To get my zones, I just need to take the %s of that.

So here are my zones...

If I use those data points, I spent 6 min in Z1, 13 min in Z2, 38 min in Z3, 1 hr in Z4, and 10 min in Z5.  Does that sound a little closer to reality?

Not really.  For the time being, I'd do what Lauren suggested and put 202 in the HR zone calculator that BT so nicely provides for you as your LT to get preliminary zones.

Next, check out the thread she posted - it's the BT bible of HR training.  i've read it a couple of times, myself.

Finally, do a full on LT test for the bike (and run, if you want zones for that too).

In the end, your zones will have no relation to percentages of anything. 

 My tri club does time trials every other week on tuesdays.  They are going to do another next week.  I will use that to get my LT.  The time trial is an 8.4 mile loop that you can do up to 3 times so I will do it twice to get my HR reading.

Still no baby.  Sorry Lauren.

I was wondering, I have a pair of shoes that are really working out well for me.  They're not wearing out too soon, they're in good shape, but I'm worried that if I don't get another pair of the same now, I will have to go through the whole new shoe search process ~200 miles from now in-time for the Marathon. 

Do you all buy several pairs of shoes when you find a pair you like?  Or do you wait for the ones you have to wear out? and then start the search?

I guess I'm worried that if my gait changes that siginificantly as the miles pile-up, I'll need a different type of shoe. 

I usually wait until it is close to replacement time. Generally, I've found that even if the running store no longer carries that exact type anymore, they have something similar. Not to say that there is anything wrong with getting 2 pairs and saving one for later, I think that's a good idea... maybe I should try that!

I usually do what Shiggy does. I do have friends that'll buy 2-4 pairs of their favorite shoe at a time, and rotate which ones they use. Literally, they just keep them in a line in their closet, and when one pair is used, it goes to the back of the line, etc. So each shoe is only worn every third run or so.

I typically find the upgraded model of my shoe always works fine for me, but some people aren't so lucky.

Perfect!! Good luck!!

anytime "my" shoe goes on sale or something, i buy a pair, and i kinda rotate between two pairs at a time.  that way, they're both kinda broken in, but eventually the older one gets phased out and then i add a new pair into the rotation.

my husband has 6 pairs of the exact same running shoe.  2 that are now just regular shoes, totally phased out of running, and 4 for running.  it's a little bit crazy, but when he was running every day, he didn't like to wear the same shoes 2 days in a row because he wanted to give them  a "rest."

however, i am considering getting a totally different shoe soon - so i'm not sure what i'll do.  

Double post

First of all KUDOS for getting into this!  You know, the science behind the madness.

IMO, the Karvonen method is pretty good to determine your HR zones (FAR better than 220-age) IF, and only IF, you find an accurate max HR AND a accurate RHR.  You are not going to find max HR during any workout unless that's your mission.  It's SO hard that most poeple can't do it and crap out.  The method I used was to warm up, then run for 30-40 minutes increasing tempo.  Then a couple minutes of all out effort at the end, THEN go harder as if your life depended on it!  I did this running up a mountain in Colorado.  When I got to the last minute, I couldn't breath fast enough, I could feel and hear my heart in my head, and I almost passed out.  I can't describe the effort.  Have you gone that hard?  It's rough, and that's why I have only done it 2 or 3 times, ever!

If I plug 202 as your LT, I get:

They KIND of compare.....  However, the Max HR is more suspect to me due to the fact it's SO hard to determine.  That would mean you did most of your work in "intensive endurance" which sounds reasonable.  Depends, did you feel like you were REALLY working, or was it somewhat comfortable and sustainable?

202 is probably LOTS closer to your LT than your true Max HR.  So using it as your LT is wise advice.  I would bet it's probably a little higher than your true LT, because your true LT is the average HR of the last 20 mintues of an all out effort of 30 minutes (after a warm up, of course).  You probably peaked with your hear rate somewhat higher than that.  Could you maintain 202 BPM for about 30 minutes straight?  If yes, it could be your LT.  If not, it's probably a little high.

Getting closer though!  It's still wise to follow the field testing protocol and get an LT for your run and bike....

 Oooh What kind of shoes are you going to get? I saw about 2 pages worth of posts on that new Zoot Ultra.  Guess you gotta be fast to wear shoes like that...

i'm not sure - i wear motion control shoes and the chick in me finds them ugly and brick-like...and i do feel like maybe my pronation problems have abated somewhat, so i'm considering just regular stability shoes....maybe like the brooks adrenaline.

but part of me wants like...racing flats, shoes that are basically, a light sole with some fabric to wrap around your foot.  maybe  like nike free.  just to see what that's like .

I looked at the weather bar on top of my logs and they startled me.  Summer is here...  Blech...

TODAY	FRIDAY	SATURDAY	SUNDAY	MONDAY
Mostly Sunny Temp: 65 F Hum: 14% P: 29.93 in Wind: 0mph CLM	Sunny High 90F Low 69F	Hot (AM and PM) High 96F Low 72F	Hot (AM and PM) High 101F Low 76F	Hot (AM and PM) High 104F Low 76F
Check the Past 24 Hour Conditions
High 89F Low 67F

Oh man!  It is supposed to be 85 degrees here tomorrow!!!  It rarely gets that hot here!  I'm gonna melt!!!

Shoes----I get a new pair when mine have reached about about 300 miles.  I wish I had the money to get a couple of pairs at one time and rotate them.  That just isn't in the buget.   I wear Mizuno Wave.  They are a neutral shoe and almost racing flats.  I love them!

Heart rate----I tested my bike LT a couple of months ago.  It hurt!  I think the numbers are pretty accurate for me.  Last fall, I used a 5K race to test for my running max HR.  I ran so hard, I just about puked at the finish.  When I worked those numbers up, they seemed pretty accurate, too.  The tests hurt but they are well worth the effort.

My shins----I think I know what part of the probem is.  I've been teaching several strength classes.  I use stability boards quite a bit.  I have to demonstrate several moves on the stability board.  I think it is wearing out my lower leg.  Any thoughts on this possibility?

How do you guys know what type of pronator you are?  Did you go to a running store and have them check you out?  I have no idea what I am.  When I first started running about a year ago, I had Nike running shoes and my feet and shins would hurt.  I switched to a $40 pair of Adidas that I found on sale and didn't have any more problems.  I'm not sure if I got better at running or my feet like Adidas shoes, but every running shoe I buy is an on sale Adidas.  I'm wondering if that's the best thing to do though.

My friend was having problems with her feet and shins so she went to a running store... like three of them.  Each one of them recommended a different type of shoe for her! 

I figure if I'm not having any pain, I guess shouldn't switch things up?

this is a pretty good description of a "do it at home" way to figure it out. my foot looks like a brick when i step on stuff, my arch collapses flat.  but i do have arches, they just disappear when i stand.  plus i've been to a few podiatrists in my life because of my weirdass foot bone structure, so i have always been aware of this stuff.  but try the website, it can help.

http://running.zappos.com/runningfitguide.zhtml 

i am a big believer in brands for shoes though - some just fit, and others don't.  saucony's just don't work for me, for example, but brooks just does.  so if adidas works, you can stick with them! 

 Cool!!  Thanks   I'll check this out.  Since I'm planning on starting marathon training in a few weeks, I don't want to mess around with not having the proper foot wear.  Probably with the mileage I'm doing now it's not a problem!

I had a running test done where your stride and gait and such is analyzed.  It spits out info regarding the type of pronator, supinator, or neutral foot you have.  It also shows which foot you land harder on and where your landing and take-off points are located on your heel and forefoot.  I got it done at a running store in Boise a few years ago.  With the information, the salesperson was able to guide me to shoes that would be appropriate.  I ended up with the Mizunos since I'm very neutral.

Fast forward to a couple of months ago when I bought a new pair of shoes.  I asked the local running store owner (who was a competitive runner) to watch me run.  He looked at the wear pattern of my shoes and told me to stick with the Mizunos.

Find a reputable shop with salespeople that are runners.  They should be able and willing to watch you run before they suggest a shoe.

Traci, There's a deal on the MCM website that shows you different techniques of finding out what kind of pronator you are.  I'm strange because I actually run from the outside of my heel to the outside of my toe.  My shoe wear pattern is almost entirely on the outside edges of the sole.  I think it could be from so many years of wearing combat boots.  But it's sponsored by Brooks so of course it tries to sell you on the Brooks shoe that matches your profile.

Tracy, did you go to Fleet Feet for that running analysis? I really want to do that.  There's a Fleet Feet down in Ft Lauderdale (an hour and a half away) so I keep thinking I want to do that soon.  They apparently have some computerized treadmill that measures everything as you run for 4 minutes.

Traci again, I don't know what training plan to do. I'm going to have to dig back through the 26 pages of posts to see which one was recommended (I think by Aikidoman???).

Group, I just realized that this group is up to 26 pages of posts.  My last group barely made 17 in 3 months.  This is an awesome group. 

Back to work...