Slornow and Wannabefaster's mentor group...Closed (Page 26)
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Expert ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() | ![]() Originally posted by marcag Originally posted by bcagle25 Posing a question/statement for the group based on some previous conversations. Progression and adaption. Big switch this year and change in a way is repeating the same w/o's week after week in a block. Body adapts to load in about 4-8 weeks until a stimulus needs to be changed. Because of that many of my sessions are identical weekly, I am given ranges and variables, not really focusing on certain numbers or small ranges. Rather go in with what the day presents and how my body feels. For example, I have done the same swim set every Monday for the past 3 weeks. In a conversation yesterday, I was told since the set isn't progressing I am just "beating a dead horse"...couple things to think about 1. You can progress load each week by repeating 90% of the workload identically from the week prior, just changing 1-3 sessions does progress the load/stimulus. 2. You could do the exact same workouts 3 weeks in a row and the stimulus will change, though it would be to external load (fatigue) then internal load in the workout. If you do as well as the week before, or better, you are progressing/adapting. 3. Ranges are targets to hit, not beat, sometimes I think people miss this point. I have done this with myself and a few other athletes. The big change I have noticed is that many people take a more simplified approach to training, focus on the process and not meeting pre-determined numbers each day. They understand their body better, progress a bit quicker, and can manage the internal (training) and external (life) load more appropriately. I know a lot of people in this group like to geek out on data, I am the exact opposite. I use RPE over everything, and use power, HR, pace, etc to accompany data to manage load. For me personally, it excludes a lot of the external noise and makes the process very simple. Hey this w/o was easier then it was 4 weeks ago, I must be getting stronger.... Thoughts???? I am not sure I am answering the question, but here I go All my blocks are at the most 8 weeks, sometimes as little as 4. I do try to achieve something very specific within a block Workouts are typically a progression of the previous weeks workout. I either increase the interval time, interval load, decrease rest, increase number of reps and increase overall work load (of the intervals). I may adjust one or all of those. But you can very much compare the workout to the previous week's workout Sometimes I am doing 2 progressions during a block I monitor performance metrics such as best 30min power or best 60min NP. But also for sub maximal efforts I monitor other metrics to see if aerobic improvement are being made even when running say in Z2 Here is a chart since Nov 2 weeks prep 8 weeks in the 2nd phase 5 weeks in the 3rd phase Just starting the 4th phase You see more VO2max work (red bar) in P2 More threshold in P3 Within blocks, time in targetted zone is increasing, P2 was more VO2 max work. P3 was a little more to the right of the curve.... Performance, such as 30min power (green) or 20min power(yellow) is increasing Confidence to hit key workouts is increased since you did 'almost that' the previous week. If a little more "breaks" you : red flag. The yellow bars are time spent doing some strengh/muscular endurance work so you see a progression in time. That's what I meant by a secondary progression, that may actually overlap more than 1 phase. FTP tests are done after each phase to confirm progress Are these for all sessions across the board? Key sessions? Swim bike run all? Big change for me this year is a bigger focus on reputation. Lots of repeating sessions weekly within a 4-6 week block. However my "key" session, or progressive session does change, i.e. load in increased. The rest usually stays the same. I have had the same runs M, T, R, F, Sa. The only ones that have changed was Tuesday (intensity) and Friday (distance) The rest has been the same but I have been given ranges, 3-4 miles, etc. So i just execute those based on how I feel those days. Some runs are near the maximal ranges, others are towards the minimal ranges, or below. All depends on feel. |
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Master ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() | ![]() Originally posted by SenatorClayDavis Related to the TSS conversation (but less geeky), can you guys comment on how you integrate recovery weeks (if you do at all). Seems like a lot of people do the "take every fourth week easy" thing, though others seem to recover more often, and other less. And some people just seem to go by feel, reducing volume and/or intensity as needed. Do you always do a full recovery (i.e. all 3 sports) or is it possible to have an easy bike week, for example, but keep the volume/intensity with run training, or would that forgo the full benefits of a recovery week? I rarely take a recovery week. Like was mentioned above, life almost always gets in the way of my workouts every couple weeks and it is amazing to me how much you can recover when you don't train for 24 straight hours. Of course, I am paying someone to write a training plan and evaluate my progress and adjust my plan as needed if I am really dragging. So, maybe recovery weeks are happening without me really realizing it. Since I hurt my knee on December 24, it hasn't felt like I have done enough work to need a recovery day or week. Of course I failed pretty badly toward the end of my bike ride yesterday so maybe I am getting fatigued. Hard to know. |
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Master ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() | ![]() Good 100.5 mile ride today. Beautiful weather at 70+ degrees mid day. The best part was finishing up at my buddy's house and having a few beers on the back deck enjoying the company. So much fun. I am thinking II could be a cyclist at some point rather than a triathlete. I tend to ride inside...in the garage during the week and outside on the weekends. I am fortunate to have a pretty good area to ride but you just never know. Like Marc I am good for about 90 min to 2 hour max on the trainer/rollers. But, it is always efficient time as there are no road/weather issues in the garage. Hard to beat a good interval workout on the trainer. |
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![]() Did a pretty good job of staying within myself and not chasing the other guys who weren't doing the full route. Strava |
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Master ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() | ![]() Originally posted by Jason N Did a pretty good job of staying within myself and not chasing the other guys who weren't doing the full route. Strava Ouch....10,000 feet of climbing. Nice work. |
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![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() | ![]() Yeah life does have a way of forcing recovery every now and then. Case in point I was supposed to do a FTP test tonight to kick off my build phase but got some sort of horrible GI illness last night and haven't been able to keep food down or sleep. So the FTP test ain't gonna happen tonight. Hopefully it's just a 24 hour thing. I don't think this counts as "recovery" since I'll be pretty weakened coming out of this, but at least the muscles and joints will get some reprieve.... though I do feel like I gave my core a good workout last night. |
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![]() | ![]() Originally posted by marcag Originally posted by Scott71 I'm planning on doing a HIM in the fall Barrelman ? Yeah, the swim is in a canal (with underwater guy wires to help keep you in line) and the bike is flat. I don't perform well in the heat and so a mid September race is better for me. I plan on doing a long course tri in late June (2k/56k/15k) and see how that goes before I sign up for the HIM. There was some recent discussion on PMC charts. For those who have done a HIM, what is a comfortable CTL or weekly TSS to target for the HIM bike? Right now, my CTL is in the low 30s - 3 rides a week of roughly 75 to 80 TSS each. That would increase once the weather warms up and I'm able to get a longer outdoor ride in on the weekend. I don't track my TSS for running, but rather go by distance. For an open HM, my targets are to get a few 18 kms runs in with a weekly total peaking at roughly double the distance, so between 40 to 45 kms. With the increased bike training, I think I could get away with less but that is what I would target for now. |
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![]() | ![]() Originally posted by SenatorClayDavis Yeah life does have a way of forcing recovery every now and then. Case in point I was supposed to do a FTP test tonight to kick off my build phase but got some sort of horrible GI illness last night and haven't been able to keep food down or sleep. So the FTP test ain't gonna happen tonight. Hopefully it's just a 24 hour thing. I don't think this counts as "recovery" since I'll be pretty weakened coming out of this, but at least the muscles and joints will get some reprieve.... though I do feel like I gave my core a good workout last night. My training load is pretty low and, for now, I don't schedule any specific recovery days or low volume weeks. The occasional illness will slow me down and is probably the body telling me that its time to take a short break. In a post above, I mentioned possibly doing a HIM later this year. Once the training load increases, I'll have to look at recovery more closely and start to schedule rest days or recovery weeks. |
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New user ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() | ![]() Originally posted by Scott71 Originally posted by marcag Originally posted by Scott71 I'm planning on doing a HIM in the fall Barrelman ? Yeah, the swim is in a canal (with underwater guy wires to help keep you in line) and the bike is flat. I don't perform well in the heat and so a mid September race is better for me. I plan on doing a long course tri in late June (2k/56k/15k) and see how that goes before I sign up for the HIM. There was some recent discussion on PMC charts. For those who have done a HIM, what is a comfortable CTL or weekly TSS to target for the HIM bike? Right now, my CTL is in the low 30s - 3 rides a week of roughly 75 to 80 TSS each. That would increase once the weather warms up and I'm able to get a longer outdoor ride in on the weekend. I don't track my TSS for running, but rather go by distance. For an open HM, my targets are to get a few 18 kms runs in with a weekly total peaking at roughly double the distance, so between 40 to 45 kms. With the increased bike training, I think I could get away with less but that is what I would target for now. I did Barrelman last year. I highly recommend it. The organizers did a terrific job running the race. It's not so big that you're overwhelmed by the amount of people like some WTC races but there are enough people that you don't feel like you're out there alone. Like you said canal swim with good sight lines and a flat and fast point to point bike. The run is fairly hilly though. The wife and I had never been to Niagara Falls before so we made a long weekend of it and really enjoyed ourselves. The only thing that will probably keep me away this year is the 8 hour drive from home. |
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Extreme Veteran ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() | ![]() Originally posted by Scott71 For those who have done a HIM, what is a comfortable CTL or weekly TSS to target for the HIM bike? I have done well peaking at 55 and dropping 5 of that during the taper. I plan to be there at MT this year I am currently 32ish |
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![]() | ![]() I did Barrelman last year. I highly recommend it. The organizers did a terrific job running the race. It's not so big that you're overwhelmed by the amount of people like some WTC races but there are enough people that you don't feel like you're out there alone. Like you said canal swim with good sight lines and a flat and fast point to point bike. The run is fairly hilly though. The wife and I had never been to Niagara Falls before so we made a long weekend of it and really enjoyed ourselves. The only thing that will probably keep me away this year is the 8 hour drive from home. Thanks Kevin, I've heard the same thing from most people who have raced Barrelman. The race organizers also run a tri series in Southern Ontario and I have been very impressed with every race I have done with them. Niagara Falls is only about an hour away from me and so I was planning it as a family weekend. The wife and kids can keep busy at the local attractions while I'm racing. The run profile does look pretty rough though. I've only done two HM courses - 1 fairly flat and the other a net elevation loss where the start was at the top of an escarpment. How would you compare your run time at Barrelman to an open HM? |
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![]() | ![]() Originally posted by marcag Originally posted by Scott71 For those who have done a HIM, what is a comfortable CTL or weekly TSS to target for the HIM bike? I have done well peaking at 55 and dropping 5 of that during the taper. I plan to be there at MT this year I am currently 32ish Thanks Marc. Although its still early, I'm trying to get an idea if I will have enough time to fit in the training for a half. My CTL is at about 32 right now, but that is with a few high intensity workouts and total riding of about 3 1/2 hours a week. Realistically, if I stick with only 3 bike workouts a week, I don't think my CTL would get much higher than 45. The flat course would help me there (and hopefully get lucky with the tailwind they had 2 years ago
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Extreme Veteran ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() | ![]() Originally posted by Scott71 Originally posted by marcag Originally posted by Scott71 For those who have done a HIM, what is a comfortable CTL or weekly TSS to target for the HIM bike? I have done well peaking at 55 and dropping 5 of that during the taper. I plan to be there at MT this year I am currently 32ish Thanks Marc. Although its still early, I'm trying to get an idea if I will have enough time to fit in the training for a half. My CTL is at about 32 right now, but that is with a few high intensity workouts and total riding of about 3 1/2 hours a week. Realistically, if I stick with only 3 bike workouts a week, I don't think my CTL would get much higher than 45. The flat course would help me there (and hopefully get lucky with the tailwind they had 2 years ago
You need some long hard workouts towards the end of the cycle. Your CTL will bump up pretty quickly with that. |
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Expert ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() | ![]() Originally posted by SenatorClayDavis Yeah life does have a way of forcing recovery every now and then. Case in point I was supposed to do a FTP test tonight to kick off my build phase but got some sort of horrible GI illness last night and haven't been able to keep food down or sleep. So the FTP test ain't gonna happen tonight. Hopefully it's just a 24 hour thing. I don't think this counts as "recovery" since I'll be pretty weakened coming out of this, but at least the muscles and joints will get some reprieve.... though I do feel like I gave my core a good workout last night. Yep, that is definitely adding MORE stress to your body, not recovering from the stress. That is a big key point in a RECOVERY day, is not only recovering from the physical training stress, but other life stresses as well. If you want to truly maximize a "recovery day" watch what athletes do in camps....the rest. I.e. go to the movies, lay around, SLEEP, go for a light walk, do not high stressful activities, SLEEP, etc. But that is the caveat, we all have life to attend to, so you need to make due with how life is presented to you. I don't do planned recovery days nor do I like to prescribed them...in general, but there are outliers. That said things to do to make best of an easy or light day to recovery.... Wake up without an alarm, your body will wake up when it's ready. Turn off triathlon outside of your workouts, no talk, no analysis, etc. Go for a light walk, keep the body moving, low intensity, still get aerobic light exercise. SLEEP Eat very well, set your body up for the next day, and get in what the body needs to adapt and recover from the previous days stresses. Oh and as I always say the most potent PED is sleep....and its legal and free. |
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![]() | ![]() Originally posted by marcag 6x4' @105% with 45s rest + an extra 1.5m@105% to get a nice round 30min number This is the workout IMO that tests if your CP is somewhat accurate. Do it in aero and enjoy I tried Marc's 6 x 4 min workout last night, but wimped out a little and extended the rest to a full minute. It was definitely tough but I ended up at 107% for the last two intervals. I think my CP may be a little low and plan to do some testing next week. A question for the group - has anyone ever ordered online from Wiggle.com? I'm going to make a few adjustments to my position and figure its time to buy a torque wrench. They have one for just under $50 CDN and I found a few other things that I need at fairly decent prices. Their website looks legit, but was wondering if anyone had a bad experience with them.
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New user ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() | ![]() Originally posted by Scott71 I did Barrelman last year. I highly recommend it. The organizers did a terrific job running the race. It's not so big that you're overwhelmed by the amount of people like some WTC races but there are enough people that you don't feel like you're out there alone. Like you said canal swim with good sight lines and a flat and fast point to point bike. The run is fairly hilly though. The wife and I had never been to Niagara Falls before so we made a long weekend of it and really enjoyed ourselves. The only thing that will probably keep me away this year is the 8 hour drive from home. Thanks Kevin, I've heard the same thing from most people who have raced Barrelman. The race organizers also run a tri series in Southern Ontario and I have been very impressed with every race I have done with them. Niagara Falls is only about an hour away from me and so I was planning it as a family weekend. The wife and kids can keep busy at the local attractions while I'm racing. The run profile does look pretty rough though. I've only done two HM courses - 1 fairly flat and the other a net elevation loss where the start was at the top of an escarpment. How would you compare your run time at Barrelman to an open HM? I'm a shining example of how NOT to run off the bike in a HIM. So far I'm 0 for 4 in three years. For an open HM I'm usually between 1:45 and 1:52 depending on what kind of shape I'm in. I think my best HIM run split is around 2:06 and I'm pretty sure the course was a bit short. I think I ran around 2:15 at Barrelman last year. I did Timberman about 6 weeks before Barrelman last year and blew up on the run. So at Barrelman I tried to go much easier on the bike and end up about 4 minutes slower than Timberman which is a fairly hilly bike course. I still struggled on the 2nd half of the run at Barrelman. ![]() |
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Extreme Veteran ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() | ![]() Originally posted by Scott71 Originally posted by marcag 6x4' @105% with 45s rest + an extra 1.5m@105% to get a nice round 30min number This is the workout IMO that tests if your CP is somewhat accurate. Do it in aero and enjoy I tried Marc's 6 x 4 min workout last night, but wimped out a little and extended the rest to a full minute. It was definitely tough but I ended up at 107% for the last two intervals. I think my CP may be a little low and plan to do some testing next week. A question for the group - has anyone ever ordered online from Wiggle.com? I'm going to make a few adjustments to my position and figure its time to buy a torque wrench. They have one for just under $50 CDN and I found a few other things that I need at fairly decent prices. Their website looks legit, but was wondering if anyone had a bad experience with them.
I have not ordered from Wiggle but would. They are one of a few UK retailers that are very price competitve I bought a DI2 upgrade and 1/3 came from chainreaction 1/3 from probikekit and 1/3 from evanscycles. All UK based. I think I got charged customs on 1 of the 3 and had the stuff within a week That being said princessauto has stores all over, including Toronto and have lots of torque wrenches. |
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Extreme Veteran ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() | ![]() Originally posted by GoldenSprocket Originally posted by Scott71 I did Barrelman last year. I highly recommend it. The organizers did a terrific job running the race. It's not so big that you're overwhelmed by the amount of people like some WTC races but there are enough people that you don't feel like you're out there alone. Like you said canal swim with good sight lines and a flat and fast point to point bike. The run is fairly hilly though. The wife and I had never been to Niagara Falls before so we made a long weekend of it and really enjoyed ourselves. The only thing that will probably keep me away this year is the 8 hour drive from home. Thanks Kevin, I've heard the same thing from most people who have raced Barrelman. The race organizers also run a tri series in Southern Ontario and I have been very impressed with every race I have done with them. Niagara Falls is only about an hour away from me and so I was planning it as a family weekend. The wife and kids can keep busy at the local attractions while I'm racing. The run profile does look pretty rough though. I've only done two HM courses - 1 fairly flat and the other a net elevation loss where the start was at the top of an escarpment. How would you compare your run time at Barrelman to an open HM? I'm a shining example of how NOT to run off the bike in a HIM. So far I'm 0 for 4 in three years. For an open HM I'm usually between 1:45 and 1:52 depending on what kind of shape I'm in. I think my best HIM run split is around 2:06 and I'm pretty sure the course was a bit short. I think I ran around 2:15 at Barrelman last year. I did Timberman about 6 weeks before Barrelman last year and blew up on the run. So at Barrelman I tried to go much easier on the bike and end up about 4 minutes slower than Timberman which is a fairly hilly bike course. I still struggled on the 2nd half of the run at Barrelman. ![]() I think this table works for the guys that have a stronger run and pace the bike properly Use the first few columns to find your open HM, then you see the equivalent you should be able to run this of course assumes you have done the running miles done and have paced the bike properly ![]() |
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![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() | ![]() I've ordered from Wiggle maybe 4-5 times. I've also used ChainReactionCycles and ProBikeKit. Pretty much all good experiences - I usually get my items in just over a week and always under 2 weeks, and have never been dinged with any customs. One time I ordered something from Wiggle and it never made it out of the UK, I just got noticed that it had been returned and they refunded me. Placed the same order again and everything went fine. Because of the way bike parts are distributed in Canada it's a virtual monopoly, so the UK online retailers have significantly better prices, and on top of that you don't tend to pay any tax. I think MEC is big enough that they circumvent Cycles Lambert, so they can sometimes have decent prices. I actually bought a torque wrench from them last year. I've gotten a ton of use out of it as I tweak my position. |
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New user ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() | ![]() That chart makes me sad. ![]() Looking at the chart I am seriously under performing on the run. For arguments sake let's say my race day nutrition is fine. Even at the sprint/Olympic distances my run times are outside the norms. So either my swim/bike fitness is lacking or I am way over cooking the bike (probably both). I found the chart at the bottom of the article in this link. http://home.trainingpeaks.com/blog/article/how-to-cheat-by-using-a-... (I couldn't figure out how to embed it). Is there a similar chart for shorter distances? Oly/HIM? Edited by GoldenSprocket 2016-02-24 4:47 PM |
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Master ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() | ![]() I have used that running table for several years. As a fairly good runner and a much more mediocre cyclist, I have usually been toward the fast end of what it estimates I can run at both the HIM and IM distances. I have actually beaten the "high" prediction several times. Unfortunately it usually means that I have undercooked the bike. It would be nice to be faster on the bike but it is very gratifying to finish with a strong run. That's the whole issue with triathlon; figuring out how to balance out your strengths and weaknesses for your fastest overall race. Some day I may get it right. |
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Master ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() | ![]() Originally posted by bcagle25 Yep, that is definitely adding MORE stress to your body, not recovering from the stress. That is a big key point in a RECOVERY day, is not only recovering from the physical training stress, but other life stresses as well. If you want to truly maximize a "recovery day" watch what athletes do in camps....the rest. I.e. go to the movies, lay around, SLEEP, go for a light walk, do not high stressful activities, SLEEP, etc. But that is the caveat, we all have life to attend to, so you need to make due with how life is presented to you. I don't do planned recovery days nor do I like to prescribed them...in general, but there are outliers. That said things to do to make best of an easy or light day to recovery.... Wake up without an alarm, your body will wake up when it's ready. Turn off triathlon outside of your workouts, no talk, no analysis, etc. Go for a light walk, keep the body moving, low intensity, still get aerobic light exercise. SLEEP Eat very well, set your body up for the next day, and get in what the body needs to adapt and recover from the previous days stresses. Oh and as I always say the most potent PED is sleep....and its legal and free. My job requires that I be on my feet for 9-12+ hours per day, often times 6-7 days per week. Add in early mornings, late nights, significant mental stressors, and I think that my job is definitely an impediment to being the "best" triathlete I can be. However, the job pays the bills and makes it so I can travel to all of the triathlons I want to race so the job and hours aren't going anywhere any time soon. I have found that I make a lot of my better physiologic gains during weeks that I am on vacation. It isn't because I train more because typically I don't. Instead, I am convinced that my gains come because I get nine hours of sleep per night, I lay around, I eat on a schedule, I relax. If I won the lottery, look out 45-49 age group....... As it sits now the front runners are not yet threatened by me :-) |
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Extreme Veteran ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() | ![]() Originally posted by Scott71 A question for the group - has anyone ever ordered online from Wiggle.com? I'm going to make a few adjustments to my position and figure its time to buy a torque wrench. They have one for just under $50 CDN and I found a few other things that I need at fairly decent prices. Their website looks legit, but was wondering if anyone had a bad experience with them.
I have ordered from them I think twice. No problem getting what I ordered and the quality was as advertised. Obviously it took a bit longer but I expected that. I have no idea what they do about the paperwork for importing but it was delivered just like anything else without me having to do anything special. I would not hesitate to buy from them again. |
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Extreme Veteran ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() | ![]() Originally posted by GoldenSprocket That chart makes me sad. ![]() Looking at the chart I am seriously under performing on the run. For arguments sake let's say my race day nutrition is fine. Even at the sprint/Olympic distances my run times are outside the norms. So either my swim/bike fitness is lacking or I am way over cooking the bike (probably both). I found the chart at the bottom of the article in this link. http://home.trainingpeaks.com/blog/article/how-to-cheat-by-using-a-... (I couldn't figure out how to embed it). Is there a similar chart for shorter distances? Oly/HIM? I have never seen one for HIM so I made you one we could debate :-) Assumption is an accurate FTP which is a BIG assumption it seems Edited by marcag 2016-02-24 7:26 AM (Screenshot 2016-02-24 08.03.55.png) Attachments ---------------- Screenshot 2016-02-24 08.03.55.png (38KB - 1 downloads) |
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