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2012-09-17 7:41 AM
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Subject: RE: So outraged I had to say something...
gsmacleod - 2012-09-16 6:37 PM
ChineseDemocracy - 2012-09-16 1:58 PM

Here it is, please tell me if you find this acceptable or not...it's a 2-minute dvd trailer for the exact dvd shown yesterday morning:  I would love to hear your opinions!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PHUYjk6RRlU

I would share your outrage if I attended any presenation where this was shown unless it was completely clear that it wasn't going to be a scientific presentation. This is nothing more than ID propaganda aimed at a group that is least able to critically consider the message being presented. I have no issues with what people believe but when there is a concerted effort to blur the line between science and religion, I have serious concerns. Shane

So you're saying you don't support teaching evolution in the classroom?
Sorry, just messing with you.  I couldn't resist.  

Back to the OP I would agree that it's probably an inappropriate setting for that video.  I personally wouldn't be "outraged" any more than I would be if someone were really pushing an evolutionary only theory.

I'm fascinated by the topic as a whole.  I'm a christian and I believe in ID, but I also love science and want to understand it so I don't roundly discredit anything evolution because it's not "creation".



2012-09-17 8:24 AM
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Subject: RE: So outraged I had to say something...

Thought this was fitting to this discussion:

 

2012-09-17 8:32 AM
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Subject: RE: So outraged I had to say something...
tuwood - 2012-09-17 9:41 AM

So you're saying you don't support teaching evolution in the classroom?
Sorry, just messing with you.  I couldn't resist.  


Precisely! I think it is time we stopped teaching those pesky scientific theories and just taught scientific facts!

Shane
2012-09-17 8:54 AM
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Subject: RE: So outraged I had to say something...
It amazes me that people are outraged over a butterfly video with everything else going on in this country.
2012-09-17 9:58 AM
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jford2309 - 2012-09-17 9:54 AM It amazes me that people are outraged over a butterfly video with everything else going on in this country.

The way we are going to solve our problems now and in the future is by having an educated population. So the issue is not just about whether or not butterflies evolved - it is about having a basic understanding of one of the most well accepted and well-defined processes in biology. I am assuming (so it may be mistaken) that the primary target audience was children. Who are the ones in the future who will be expected to be able to use enough scientific reasoning to solve the problems facing them.

2012-09-17 10:04 AM
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Subject: RE: So outraged I had to say something...
That's how I felt at the end of Happy Feet.


2012-09-17 10:08 AM
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Subject: RE: So outraged I had to say something...
No offering plate passed around by the ushers no incident. 
2012-09-17 10:14 AM
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Subject: RE: So outraged I had to say something...
gearboy - 2012-09-16 12:05 PM

Disingenuous at best. If the intent was to show pretty butterflies, then turn off the sound and provide your own narration. 




This.
2012-09-17 11:16 AM
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Subject: RE: So outraged I had to say something...

Sorry for not reading the whole thing.

Is the refuge publicly or privately funded?

 

2012-09-17 11:31 AM
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Subject: RE: So outraged I had to say something...
I love this thread.
2012-09-17 2:10 PM
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tuwood - 2012-09-17 6:41 AM 

I'm fascinated by the topic as a whole.  I'm a christian and I believe in ID, but I also love science and want to understand it so I don't roundly discredit anything evolution because it's not "creation".

Ok here's my off the cuff answer - the word "theory" doesn't mean "best guess" like it does in casual conversation. It's a scientific framework to which all known evidence must fit. Ie, as soon as someone can disprove it it's no good. This is why it's called the theory of gravitation - you can't prove gravity but the theory fits and explains every experiment involving gravity and how it should work. You can predict what will happen before it does. Evolution falls into this area.

Creationism is nothing like that - it can be disproved by anyone with access to carbon dating. Or by taking the dimensions of the Ark and trying to explain how every species of animal could physically fit in something even 100x as large. You might as well say the Sun orbits around the Earth or the Earth is flat.

But as for wrecking Intelligent Design, you always have the option that ID created evolution as a mechanism for human advancement. ID created the big bang and that's how we came to be. Or not. ID is fine to believe in, but don't tell my kids that gravity is actually some guy underground with really big magnet (eat more iron kid and you'll get heavier, etc). That's how bad creationism is.



Edited by Khyron 2012-09-17 2:11 PM


2012-09-17 3:02 PM
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Subject: RE: So outraged I had to say something...
Khyron - 2012-09-17 2:10 PM

tuwood - 2012-09-17 6:41 AM 

I'm fascinated by the topic as a whole.  I'm a christian and I believe in ID, but I also love science and want to understand it so I don't roundly discredit anything evolution because it's not "creation".

Ok here's my off the cuff answer - the word "theory" doesn't mean "best guess" like it does in casual conversation. It's a scientific framework to which all known evidence must fit. Ie, as soon as someone can disprove it it's no good. This is why it's called the theory of gravitation - you can't prove gravity but the theory fits and explains every experiment involving gravity and how it should work. You can predict what will happen before it does. Evolution falls into this area.

Creationism is nothing like that - it can be disproved by anyone with access to carbon dating. Or by taking the dimensions of the Ark and trying to explain how every species of animal could physically fit in something even 100x as large. You might as well say the Sun orbits around the Earth or the Earth is flat.

But as for wrecking Intelligent Design, you always have the option that ID created evolution as a mechanism for human advancement. ID created the big bang and that's how we came to be. Or not. ID is fine to believe in, but don't tell my kids that gravity is actually some guy underground with really big magnet (eat more iron kid and you'll get heavier, etc). That's how bad creationism is.

I can agree with a lot of that.  I don't know of any way to prove creation is real from a scientific standpoint so I tend to agree with you in that regard.  That's where the argument gets a little crazy is when people say "creation is fact" because its in the bible, but from a scientific standpoint that doesn't mean anything.  Creation is a faith thing based on what's in the Bible (or insert religion)

I tend to fall into your last paragraph (minus the underground gravity guy) where I think that there was a creator that set things in motion whether that be through a long process of evolution, or some other manner (something quicker).

Even as a Christian I've had issues with the Noah story.  I know the bible speaks of it as fact and worldwide, but the logical nerd in me has issues with that.  in my mind I've reconciled it as a local story passed down for generations.  In that time a person's "entire world" was not a very big area so there "could have been" a great localized flood (from God or natural) that spawned the stories.  Ultimately I'm a Christian and not a Noahan so it doesn't effect my belief structure at all.  I just chalk it up to something that I don't understand.

2012-09-17 3:02 PM
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Subject: RE: So outraged I had to say something...
dang double post.  That proves evolution is false because I should know by now to not click my mouse button twice when posting... buhaha

Edited by tuwood 2012-09-17 3:03 PM
2012-09-17 3:17 PM
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Subject: RE: So outraged I had to say something...
otisbrown - 2012-09-17 9:24 AM

Thought this was fitting to this discussion:

 

ROFL!  Oh man that was funny.  Thank you!

2012-09-17 3:19 PM
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Subject: RE: So outraged I had to say something...
tuwood - 2012-09-17 2:02 PM
Khyron - 2012-09-17 2:10 PM

tuwood - 2012-09-17 6:41 AM 

I'm fascinated by the topic as a whole.  I'm a christian and I believe in ID, but I also love science and want to understand it so I don't roundly discredit anything evolution because it's not "creation".

Ok here's my off the cuff answer - the word "theory" doesn't mean "best guess" like it does in casual conversation. It's a scientific framework to which all known evidence must fit. Ie, as soon as someone can disprove it it's no good. This is why it's called the theory of gravitation - you can't prove gravity but the theory fits and explains every experiment involving gravity and how it should work. You can predict what will happen before it does. Evolution falls into this area.

Creationism is nothing like that - it can be disproved by anyone with access to carbon dating. Or by taking the dimensions of the Ark and trying to explain how every species of animal could physically fit in something even 100x as large. You might as well say the Sun orbits around the Earth or the Earth is flat.

But as for wrecking Intelligent Design, you always have the option that ID created evolution as a mechanism for human advancement. ID created the big bang and that's how we came to be. Or not. ID is fine to believe in, but don't tell my kids that gravity is actually some guy underground with really big magnet (eat more iron kid and you'll get heavier, etc). That's how bad creationism is.

I can agree with a lot of that.  I don't know of any way to prove creation is real from a scientific standpoint so I tend to agree with you in that regard.  That's where the argument gets a little crazy is when people say "creation is fact" because its in the bible, but from a scientific standpoint that doesn't mean anything.  Creation is a faith thing based on what's in the Bible (or insert religion)

I tend to fall into your last paragraph (minus the underground gravity guy) where I think that there was a creator that set things in motion whether that be through a long process of evolution, or some other manner (something quicker).

Even as a Christian I've had issues with the Noah story.  I know the bible speaks of it as fact and worldwide, but the logical nerd in me has issues with that.  in my mind I've reconciled it as a local story passed down for generations.  In that time a person's "entire world" was not a very big area so there "could have been" a great localized flood (from God or natural) that spawned the stories.  Ultimately I'm a Christian and not a Noahan so it doesn't effect my belief structure at all.  I just chalk it up to something that I don't understand.

See I'm sort of the opposite of you. I was the 6 year old kid who didn't believe in Santa. I even managed to convince all my friends I was right when I still got presents. I don't believe in a God and am a strong believer in evolution (did you know they found astro-sugars similar to RNA, floating around in space recently?). I have come to accept though that the big bang just happening is equally as likely as a god-like figure starting the big bang. Both have an element of "magic" in that no one knows how either could possibly happen.

2012-09-17 3:29 PM
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Subject: RE: So outraged I had to say something...

Science is just the modern term for sorcery. 

I consider myself to be a "libertarian believer".  In that I won't attack your beliefs and tell you that you're wrong and you afford me the same courtesy in return.  In general it has worked out pretty well for me.  If asked about my faith I will talk with anyone about it, but I'm not here to force it down anyones throat.  I find it works well for the most part. 

I'm a big live and let live type of guy. 



2012-09-17 5:23 PM
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Subject: RE: So outraged I had to say something...

Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind. -Albert Einstein

2012-09-18 3:47 PM
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I agree with the eminent scientist and chemist and Nobel Prize winner Francis Crick, who discovered the double helix of DNA, and his theory of Directed Panspermia.

Crick believed that the complexity of DNA could not have evolved naturally. (In full disclosure later in life he retreats from this position, but in his 1972 paper "Directed Panspermia" co-authored by L.E. Orgel they argue the possibility of directed panspermia and argue that it cannot be discounted)

I point this out only to express that contrary to what is often asserted and taught, there are eminent and well qualified scientists that don't hold to the entirity of Evolutionary Theory.  That all life on Earth evolved from primordial goo.  (I'm not asserting that these scientists are religious in any way.  I'm just saying that the assertion that there is consensus amoungst science may be an over statement, and likewise the statement that only crack pots could disagree with every single aspect of evolution is likewise an over statement)

Likewise there are numerous examples of eminent scientists that believe in creationism, Richard Smalley for one.

but regarding the OP I do agree that given the forum you should have been warned about the content of the DVD, at the very least it would have given you the opportunity to decide to attend or not attend.

2012-09-18 3:55 PM
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Subject: RE: So outraged I had to say something...
Brock Samson - 2012-09-18 3:47 PM

I agree with the eminent scientist and chemist and Nobel Prize winner Francis Crick, who discovered the double helix of DNA, and his theory of Directed Panspermia.

Crick believed that the complexity of DNA could not have evolved naturally. (In full disclosure later in life he retreats from this position, but in his 1972 paper "Directed Panspermia" co-authored by L.E. Orgel they argue the possibility of directed panspermia and argue that it cannot be discounted)

I point this out only to express that contrary to what is often asserted and taught, there are eminent and well qualified scientists that don't hold to the entirity of Evolutionary Theory.  That all life on Earth evolved from primordial goo.  (I'm not asserting that these scientists are religious in any way.  I'm just saying that the assertion that there is consensus amoungst science may be an over statement, and likewise the statement that only crack pots could disagree with every single aspect of evolution is likewise an over statement)

Likewise there are numerous examples of eminent scientists that believe in creationism, Richard Smalley for one.

but regarding the OP I do agree that given the forum you should have been warned about the content of the DVD, at the very least it would have given you the opportunity to decide to attend or not attend.

 

No one held him there against his will, he could have left at anytime

2012-09-18 4:42 PM
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Subject: RE: So outraged I had to say something...

This was an interesting article about Math and God. Re: the Fibonacci Sequence.

Of God and Math and Other Things I Discuss with 12-Year-Olds… Volume II

 By day, I’m the guy you used to love to hate: I teach math. I work at a Catholic school just outside of Boston, where every day I try to convince a gaggle of 12- and 13-year-olds that Pre-Algebra is actually far, far cooler than One Direction.

I threw my students for a bit of a loop this week. I started by asking them what an artist typically does when he’s done with a painting. After a couple of tries, I got the answer I was looking for: “he signs it.” Then I asked the follow-up question: when God was finished creating the world, do you think He signed His creation? Or, at the very least, did He leave us clues about who the Artist was?

Nobody said anything. I got some wide eyes, some blank stares… finally, a hand or two went up, and I got a couple of “I don’t think so” type answers…

“Let’s come back to that question in a few minutes,” I said. “First, I want to talk about some numbers…”

0, 1, 1,  2,  3,  5,  8,  13,  21,  34,  55,  89….

“Anyone see the pattern?”

A few kids had already seen this, so some hands shot up. It’s the Fibonacci series, discovered by the 12th century mathematician Leonardo Fibonacci. You start with 0 and 1, and you get each successive number by adding together the previous two numbers. So 0 + 1 = 1,    1 + 1 = 2,   1 + 2= 3, etc. It goes on forever. But other than being a cool pattern, why are these numbers important?

What my kids didn’t know is that the Fibonacci numbers show up all over the place in nature. For instance, the Fibonacci numbers can be used to create a curved shape that is found in sea shells, sea horse tails, the shape of your inner-ear… In the plant world, there are many species that have spirals which, if counted in one direction, will add up to one Fibonacci number, but counted in a different direction they add up to the very next number in the Fibonacci series. For a lot of pine cones, this means 5 one way, then 8 the other. In sunflowers, you get a lot of 34 one way, then 55 the other…

And all of this might seem like sheer coincidence… except that the Fibonacci numbers are also artistically beautiful. You see, if you divide a Fibonacci number by the one immediately before it (say, for instance, 55 divided by 34), you get a number that approximates the “Golden Ratio.” This ratio–which is about equal to 1.618– has been known to artists and architects for thousands of years. Many of the great masters have noted that the Golden Ratio is incredibly pleasing to the human eye, and you can find it in such works as the Mona Lisa, the pyramids of Egypt, etc. And the farther along the Fibonacci series you get, the closer the approximation is to the Golden Ratio of 1.618…

So it would seem that, whoever it was that included Fibonacci numbers all over the place in nature wasn’t just a great scientist… He’s an amazing artist as well.

***

“Of God and Math…”

Nothing to add really, just thought it interesting.

2012-09-18 6:47 PM
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Subject: RE: So outraged I had to say something...
Brock Samson - 2012-09-18 2:47 PM

I agree with the eminent scientist and chemist and Nobel Prize winner Francis Crick, who discovered the double helix of DNA, and his theory of Directed Panspermia.

Crick believed that the complexity of DNA could not have evolved naturally. (In full disclosure later in life he retreats from this position, but in his 1972 paper "Directed Panspermia" co-authored by L.E. Orgel they argue the possibility of directed panspermia and argue that it cannot be discounted)

I point this out only to express that contrary to what is often asserted and taught, there are eminent and well qualified scientists that don't hold to the entirity of Evolutionary Theory.  That all life on Earth evolved from primordial goo.  (I'm not asserting that these scientists are religious in any way.  I'm just saying that the assertion that there is consensus amoungst science may be an over statement, and likewise the statement that only crack pots could disagree with every single aspect of evolution is likewise an over statement)

Likewise there are numerous examples of eminent scientists that believe in creationism, Richard Smalley for one.

In 1982, in McLean v. Arkansas Board of Education, a federal court held that a "balanced treatment" statute violated the Establishment Clause of the U.S. Constitution. The Arkansas statute required public schools to give balanced treatment to "creation-science" and "evolution-science". In a decision that gave a detailed definition of the term "science", the court declared that "creation science" is not in fact a science. The court also found that the statute did not have a secular purpose, noting that the statute used language peculiar to creationist literature. The theory of evolution does not presuppose either the absence or the presence of a creator.

Note the State that this ruling occurred. It is not science, it's faith. There are no credible scientists that can possibly believe in creationism because it flies in the face of every scientific principle. That's not to say that scientists can't have faith - because again, anything can always be brought down from ID. 






2012-09-18 7:01 PM
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Subject: RE: So outraged I had to say something...
CD I understand you were put off by the presentation but of all the things going on in the country I just can't see being outraged over this.
2012-09-18 7:41 PM
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Subject: RE: So outraged I had to say something...
Yeah, I agree with CB, now Khyron's posts on the other hand. (sarc).

Seriously Khyron. There are actually a number of credible scientists who also believe in a creator. Some in History include Copernicus, Galileo, Kelvin, Newton, Pascal, Faraday, Boyle, Planck, and even Einstein didn't believe in random chance that everything would work the way it does without a creator.

It's called faith for a reason. You don't have to believe.
2012-09-18 8:05 PM
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Subject: RE: So outraged I had to say something...
I believe some people take the "Separtion of church and state" far beyond the foundering fathers original intent.

I PRAY more Christians will stand up for THEIR rights.

2012-09-18 8:38 PM
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Subject: RE: So outraged I had to say something...
metcalf34 - 2012-09-18 9:05 PMI believe some people take the "Separtion of church and state" far beyond the foundering fathers original intent.

I PRAY more Christians will stand up for THEIR rights.

It's not about "separation of church and state". It's about the apparent separation of church and science. Which does not have to happen. Even the church that tried Galileo for heresy for proposing a heliocentric view in opposition to the bible accepts evolution and scientific inquiry.ETA and of course, the founders were products of the Enlightenment, which valued scientific inquiry.

Edited by gearboy 2012-09-18 8:40 PM
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