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2008-07-25 2:01 PM
in reply to: #1559248

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Subject: RE: Race Pace vs. Training Pace
Scout7 - 2008-07-25 1:19 PM

mikericci - 2008-07-25 12:04 PM

Scout7 - 2008-07-25 9:58 AM I would think that most beginners are served by just working on getting up the volume and consistency than worrying about tempo runs and race pace effort.

exactly and a little speed will help. I start my beginners with as little as 2x20" (seconds!) 1x per week to get their legs used to running a little faster.

But you mentioned tempo runs before.

Also, I wouldn't call that speed work.  I'd call those striders.  McMillan calls it Neuromuscular Training. 

Of course, you and I differ greatly in our approaches, anyway.  First, I think mileage volume, frequency, and consistency are key.  Second, I think every workout is "quality".  I never agreed with the idea of calling specific types of workouts "quality".  It denotes that other types aren't worth doing. 



Very nicely put and I agree. For most of the runners on here volume, frequency and consistency are needed more than tempo runs, speedwork, etc.


2008-07-25 5:24 PM
in reply to: #1559248

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Subject: RE: Race Pace vs. Training Pace
Scout7 - 2008-07-25 11:19 AM
mikericci - 2008-07-25 12:04 PM

Scout7 - 2008-07-25 9:58 AM I would think that most beginners are served by just working on getting up the volume and consistency than worrying about tempo runs and race pace effort.

exactly and a little speed will help. I start my beginners with as little as 2x20" (seconds!) 1x per week to get their legs used to running a little faster.

But you mentioned tempo runs before.

Also, I wouldn't call that speed work.  I'd call those striders.  McMillan calls it Neuromuscular Training. 

Of course, you and I differ greatly in our approaches, anyway.  First, I think mileage volume, frequency, and consistency are key.  Second, I think every workout is "quality".  I never agreed with the idea of calling specific types of workouts "quality".  It denotes that other types aren't worth doing. 

Well, its ok to disagree, that's how we learn.

I think that Shorter would call that speed - fast twitch activating running - same thing MacMillan calls it - semantics really. Shorter - only American to win a Gold Medal in the marathon. I'll take his advice any day. No one worked harder.

For an experienced runner, I agree with you are saying: higher volume, frequency and consistency. When have I said different. A workout is not a 'quality' workout when it doesn't benefit you, correct. If you are running an easy run at 10' miles, and your 10k pace is 6' a mile, I think you'd be better off doing something that actually promotes recovery like easy cycling or swimming. That's the triathlete in me. The college runner in me had a different philosophy, but at 40, I can't train like that and still stay healthy. That's just reality.

2008-07-25 5:25 PM
in reply to: #1559302

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Subject: RE: Race Pace vs. Training Pace
rayd - 2008-07-25 11:34 AM
mikericci - 2008-07-25 9:24 AM

rayd - 2008-07-25 8:30 AM I just read this post for the first time.  I did the Peak last weekend and I was somewhat disappointed with my run.  I finished just over 9-minute miles...which in training would be a Z1 run for me.  Because of the heat I did walk at the aid stations to drink but still I was expecting to run under 8-minute miles...similar to what I run on my tempo runs.  I don't necessarily think I train too fast...most of my training is Z1/Z2.  In fact, I think I would benefit from training faster so that my body knows how to tolerate the harder pace when racing.  Anyway, I felt the conditions on last Sunday took just about everyone out of their race plan (for the run).  Of course, there were some people that ran very fast!

Ray - agreed, that running some tempo and LT efforts WILL help you. Are you on a training plan? What was your nutrition plan for the bike on Sunday?

well, I do have somewhat of a training plan.  Not as structured as alot of folks...but I do put some thought in my races and workouts.  I will admit I didn't get the training I had planned on going into Boulder Peak and I'm in the same boat for Pikes Peak coming up. I get the training to finish the events...but not necessarily to race.  As far as nutrition last Sunday...I had planned on taking 2-gels and the bottle of cytomax during that I had prepared during the bike.  I only did one gel early on the ride and the cytomax.  I thought about the other gel but opted not to...that might have been a mistake.

Its definitely important to try stuff in training to see if it will work on race day. I know last year I completely underfueled on the bike and paid for it on the run. Live and learn, they say.

2008-07-26 10:40 AM
in reply to: #1556857

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Subject: RE: Race Pace vs. Training Pace

Can you look at my plan.   I am building to a Aug 30 Sprint which will be my 3rd tri this year and ever. 

My primary question is:  Is my recovery week, light enough.  Any other thoughs are appreciated.



Edited by trimore 2008-07-26 10:46 AM




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2008-07-26 6:34 PM
in reply to: #1556857

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Subject: RE: Race Pace vs. Training Pace

I have a HRM but I feel it is a limiting factor for me. I stoped using it for races because it just slowed me down. I use it for training every now and then but I just dont see the connection between my RPE and HRM. I did a 10K this morning and covered up the HR on my Garmin with tape because of this factor. After race results are. By the way I'm 26.

mile 1- 8:15 HR- 180 felt pretty easy

mile 2- 8:48 HR-188 mod big hill

mile 3-8:12 HR-189 mod but comfortable

mile 4-8:14 HR-194 picked up the pace because was comfortable with the 1st 3 miles

mile 5-8:38 HR-197 tried to hit it hard with about 2-3 min hill incline

mile 6-7:52 HR-197 let it rip bc end of race

mile .2-7:44 pace HR-198 Finished strong.

avg HR-191 total time 51:30

Honestly I felt like I could have pushed myself to go faster, some of the timing here cannot be viewed as slowing down because some miles had some big hills in there. Anyway you can see that my HR was in the high 190's from mile 4 until the end of the race. This is why I cover it up because seeing this alway slows me down. The weird part is that I still feel like I couldhave pushed it, but I am about at MAX HR. I really try and do my long runs at about 10:30. Is my race pace okay with my HR that high but still feeling like I am holding back?



Edited by Tri-a-betic 2008-07-26 6:40 PM
2008-07-28 10:03 AM
in reply to: #1556857

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Subject: RE: Race Pace vs. Training Pace
mikericci - 2008-07-24 4:43 PM

So, I was perusing some logs today of people on this site that did the Boulder Peak this past weekend. I see a fair amount of athlete who ran say 8:xx at the Peak for the 10k, yet during training they go out and run 7:xx - how does this happen? Why do people continually train faster than they race? I see this all the time - and if you are having trouble dialing in your race pace vs. training pace - please post here and we'll see if we can help you out. I think most of it is b/c people train too hard - and then when they get to race day - they crap the bed b/c they are just over done and they left their best race out on a training run.

Anyway - if you need help, post here, we'll see what we can do.



this is ME! Totally! I fold on race day (triathlons) every time so far. Running races I do well.

My best half marathon time is 1:39. 7:33 mm
My best Triathlon run time is 11 mm

My best swim time is 26 min per 1500
my best tri time is 58 min for 1.2

my best century ride is ave speed of 18 mph
my best tri time is 15.2



I just got a heart rate monitor for the first time this saturday
I have just started loggin on BT a month or so ago
I have Marathon on August 31st
I have 140.6 on October 25th
I'd like to attempt a Boston Qualify in first week fo Feb- Gasparilla run in Tampa.

Yesterday I ran 14 in the am, and a 5 mile recovery at night.

I'll take any advice I can get.

I have been following the BT plan for 140.6, primarily, except when I can hook up with ironmen and do what they do.
FF

Edited by flyinfree 2008-07-28 10:07 AM


2008-07-28 10:11 AM
in reply to: #1556857

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Subject: RE: Race Pace vs. Training Pace

Without reading everything in the thread I'd answer your initial post with the more than obvious "They went too hard on the bike" as my answer.

I've learned the hard way that putting up a really strong bike time without having the overall fitness to do that leads to diminished run times.

When I've hit my bike splits well I've put up what would be considered appropriate run splits.  In shorter races this means low to mid 6's (sprints and olympic) and I rarely ever train at those paces.  My usual training paces are in the low 7's, which means I should be able to comfortably do that in HIM and IM distance events.  But pushing the bike hard in those events are usually my downfall and result in much slower run pacing during the race for me.  But I'm working on that .....



Edited by Daremo 2008-07-28 10:12 AM
2008-07-28 1:46 PM
in reply to: #1561663

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Subject: RE: Race Pace vs. Training Pace
Tri-a-betic - 2008-07-26 5:34 PM

I have a HRM but I feel it is a limiting factor for me. I stoped using it for races because it just slowed me down. I use it for training every now and then but I just dont see the connection between my RPE and HRM. I did a 10K this morning and covered up the HR on my Garmin with tape because of this factor. After race results are. By the way I'm 26.

mile 1- 8:15 HR- 180 felt pretty easy

mile 2- 8:48 HR-188 mod big hill

mile 3-8:12 HR-189 mod but comfortable

mile 4-8:14 HR-194 picked up the pace because was comfortable with the 1st 3 miles

mile 5-8:38 HR-197 tried to hit it hard with about 2-3 min hill incline

mile 6-7:52 HR-197 let it rip bc end of race

mile .2-7:44 pace HR-198 Finished strong.

avg HR-191 total time 51:30

Honestly I felt like I could have pushed myself to go faster, some of the timing here cannot be viewed as slowing down because some miles had some big hills in there. Anyway you can see that my HR was in the high 190's from mile 4 until the end of the race. This is why I cover it up because seeing this alway slows me down. The weird part is that I still feel like I couldhave pushed it, but I am about at MAX HR. I really try and do my long runs at about 10:30. Is my race pace okay with my HR that high but still feeling like I am holding back?

why does seeing the HR slow you down? How do you know your max HR? And if your race pace is 8:16, then long runs can be done as slow as 10:15ish. No need to go slower than that. At 26, I think my AHR was somewhere around 198 or something, so don't worry about a high HR, just run hard.

2008-07-28 1:51 PM
in reply to: #1564008

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Subject: RE: Race Pace vs. Training Pace
flyinfree - 2008-07-28 9:03 AM
mikericci - 2008-07-24 4:43 PM

So, I was perusing some logs today of people on this site that did the Boulder Peak this past weekend. I see a fair amount of athlete who ran say 8:xx at the Peak for the 10k, yet during training they go out and run 7:xx - how does this happen? Why do people continually train faster than they race? I see this all the time - and if you are having trouble dialing in your race pace vs. training pace - please post here and we'll see if we can help you out. I think most of it is b/c people train too hard - and then when they get to race day - they crap the bed b/c they are just over done and they left their best race out on a training run.

Anyway - if you need help, post here, we'll see what we can do.

this is ME! Totally! I fold on race day (triathlons) every time so far. Running races I do well. My best half marathon time is 1:39. 7:33 mm My best Triathlon run time is 11 mm My best swim time is 26 min per 1500 my best tri time is 58 min for 1.2 my best century ride is ave speed of 18 mph my best tri time is 15.2 I just got a heart rate monitor for the first time this saturday I have just started loggin on BT a month or so ago I have Marathon on August 31st I have 140.6 on October 25th I'd like to attempt a Boston Qualify in first week fo Feb- Gasparilla run in Tampa. Yesterday I ran 14 in the am, and a 5 mile recovery at night. I'll take any advice I can get. I have been following the BT plan for 140.6, primarily, except when I can hook up with ironmen and do what they do. FF

First word of advice would be to NOT race a marathon 6 weeks before an IM Do a HM and run it hard after a long bike the day before. That will give you a much better training stimulus. Your recovery won't take as long and you'll get a good quality workout out of the HM.

Sounds like you need to do some testing so you can get your HRs lined up:
http://www.beginnertriathlete.com/cms/article-detail.asp?articleid=926

 

2008-07-28 4:47 PM
in reply to: #1559006

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Subject: RE: Race Pace vs. Training Pace
mikericci - 2008-07-25 11:00 AM

You are missing the point. I am talking about 6x30" fast on the run, during a 45' run.
30' of LT work a week, max.
80% of your work is still done at Zone 2 or below.

Same for biking - 75% is aerobic.

Swimming - 50% can be LT.

I am a proponent of high quality training over volume, but that doesn't mean you don't need to put in the aerobic efforts.

 

This approach works, folks.  I'm the poster-child for the "quality over volume" argument.  My coach has me do primarily z1-z2 work with sporadic bits of z3 (strides, pickups, whatever you want to call them) during some runs.  I have a tendency to get injured pretty easily, so we've been conservative with running.  Still, I train at a 7-7:30 pace in z2.  I did a training run and missed my stand-alone 1/2 mary PR by about a minute.  My last HIM was capped off by a 1/2 mary only 2 minutes off my stand alone PR.  I follow the race plan, don't overdo the bike, keep my HR in check, and the results speak for themselves.  It's not rocket science, it's just a lot of consistency paired with reasonable expectations.

Good thread, Mike!

~B

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