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Can you teach competitiveness.? (Page 3)
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 2009-08-31 9:49 PM in reply to: #2380377 |
Regular  534   Philadelphia |  Subject: RE: Can you teach competitiveness.?Bcozican - 2009-08-31 12:06 PM a lot of competition has been taken out of society in general... Whoa, when did this happen? All of freaking life is a competition! Here's a list of big competitions that your kids still have yet to participate in: - getting a date (competing vs. every member of the same sex and orientation in their local area) - getting a job (vs. everyone else who applied) - getting into college (same) - getting scholarships to college (same) - raising kids (probably feels like vs. the rest of the world sometimes) - ensuring a decent retirement (vs. the prevailing economy and the clock) - staying healthy (vs. bad habits, the clock, and possibly genetics, old injuries, or existing conditions) Here are some competitions that your kids are probably in every day: - getting good grades (vs. themselves, or possibly others, depending on the kid) - figuring out who they are (vs. other people trying to tell them who or what they are) - sticking up for the right thing (vs. someone else pushing them to do the wrong thing) - resisting doing something just because everyone else is doing it (vs. everyone else or "everyone else") - avoiding chores for as long as possible (  )(There's also worthless jerky competitions like trying to be prettier or cooler than other people, having the most or coolest stuff, "keeping up with the Joneses," etc. These are unhealthy, but since lots of people play them every day, everyone has to figure out how to deal with them, and hopefully how to resist getting dragged into them.) My point is, you have to be "competitive" to succeed in many, many life situations. Sports involve sets of definite rules and specific numbers, which make it easy to measure "competition" -- but they're not the only way to teach how to be competitive. Your kids will learn to compete in lots of other ways too... they'll have to in order to become successful adults. |
| 2009-08-31 10:41 PM in reply to: #2380193 |
Champion 7558  Albuquerque, New Mexico | Subject: RE: Can you teach competitiveness.? Bcozican - 2009-08-31 10:02 AM From an impromptu conversation in our neighborhood...several Dads were lamenting the fact that our children show no competitive instincts at all...and all the Dads were competitive athletes at college level or above - we were trying to figure out how to get that spark going with our children without being "that guy" who berates, pressures and terrorises his kid to be better in sports ( not that I'm above that if that is what it will take! ;-) ) All the kids have been in a sport for at least a couple of seasons - age range is 6-11 So where do you competitive dads channel that energy/focus/competitive attitude today? What are the 6-year olds doing? Are they still learning skills, or is the focus now on winning? I can appreciate that an 11-year old, having been involved in a sport for a number of years, might have some opportunity to be in a more competitive league. Have the 11-year-olds shown an interest in moving to a more competitive league? Maybe they're happy NOT subjected to the pressures of a highly competitive league, but are happy kicking a soccer ball around with friends on a warm fall day.It's a sad state of affairs if a 6-year old is "too old" to start a new sport because he/she has missed those precious seasons as a 3, 4, or 5-year old. I want my kids to enjoy sports but to learn that you need to be competitive - to show that they care and compete!- I think there is so much to learn from these environments..not just the competitive atmosphere but I believe without being 100% committed and being a willing doormat they are missing out.[/quote] Why does a kid NEED to be "competitive?" Are they allowed to be competitive in some things but not others, or do they have to be universally competitive? Are there times when the can play a sport competitively and then later play not competitively? Should the 6-year old not play with an 11-year old for fear of being the "doormat?" Should the 11-year old not be 100% committed so the 6-year old can enjoy the sport too? [quote] So - whats the secret sauce to getting kids to care, be competitive and still maintain enjoyment? If you want to avoid being "that guy" while instilling the fear of losing into your child, simply figure out how to confiscate or withhold some favorite item or activity when the child doesn't or won't perform...you can calmly watch the game, no yelling, no screaming because you and your child KNOW what's at stake... Maybe, we should learn a thing or two from them. How can we enjoy something without requiring it to be competitive? I'm not opposed to competition, and we all compete in some ways or others. Where we get into trouble is when we force an un-natural or unnecessary competitiveness into a situation. I'm sure I could obsess over tri-gear, training, and nutrition and make life miserable for everyone around me when I don't finish first, but triathlon is an interest, it isn't my livelihood, and it really isn't life-or-death, so I shouldn't worry too much if I don't "win." I'll give a couple of examples. I do a lot of scouting. Most packs run a Pinewood Derby. In some packs, this is ultra-competitive and you'll find a lot of dads working every angle they can to get some advantage for their son's car to win. Have you ever seen an 8-year old flip the block of wood over and drill holes with a drill press rather than use the pre-cut slots? Neither have I, but I've seen derby cars done this way. We had to change the pack rules to specify that the car design must use the original slots. In these packs, the cars all tend to look like thin wedges because "that's the fastest design." In other packs, the focus is on participation and there are a lot of very creative cars, many of which have rough edges and gloppy paint (and a lot of kids take pride in what they designed). There are advantages to both methods to running the pinewood derby. As a second example, I do some adult leader training, and we have some "competitions" where the rules are left a little ambiguous. There are some "win at all costs" lessons as well as "sometimes, the results don't justify the means". The adult leaders are a little aprehensive at times, and it isn't always clear in life when we should compete and when we should participate.
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 2009-09-01 6:54 AM in reply to: #2380193 |
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| 2009-09-01 6:56 AM in reply to: #2381620 |
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| 2009-09-01 7:13 AM in reply to: #2381681 |
Buttercup 14334 | Subject: RE: Can you teach competitiveness.? sulross - 2009-08-31 10:47 PM All I want is for him to be happy. HAPPY. It's like I tell a lot of parents - this world will do everything it can to beat the s#*t out of your kid when he/she is an adult, so let them have unbridled fun as much as possible as children. I think this is a beautiful and skillful sentiment. Kudos to you. Nobody gets to decide who their kid is going to be. They will learn a lot just by watching how their parents behave and what they say (mostly the former), but in the end they get to decide what they are going to become. It's their life, not yours. You already got your chance to be who you want and to make your own mistakes and accomplish your own goals. Edited by Renee 2009-09-01 7:13 AM |
| 2009-09-01 7:37 AM in reply to: #2381759 |
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| 2009-09-01 9:13 AM in reply to: #2380193 |
Champion 11641 Fairport, NY | Subject: RE: Can you teach competitiveness.? Bcozican - 2009-08-31 11:02 AM From an impromptu conversation in our neighborhood...several Dads were lamenting the fact that our children show no competitive instincts at all...and all the Dads were competitive athletes at college level or above - we were trying to figure out how to get that spark going with our children without being "that guy" who berates, pressures and terrorises his kid to be better in sports ( not that I'm above that if that is what it will take! ;-) ) All the kids have been in a sport for at least a couple of seasons - age range is 6-11 I want my kids to enjoy sports but to learn that you need to be competitive - to show that they care and compete!- I think there is so much to learn from these environments..not just the competitive atmosphere but I believe without being 100% committed and being a willing doormat they are missing out. So - whats the secret sauce to getting kids to care, be competitive and still maintain enjoyment? This reads like grown men were lamenting the fact that school-aged kids were less competitive than they themselves were in college. That would be perfectly normal. Expecting a 4th or 8th grader to have the same type and level of motivation as a college athlete isn't reasonable. OTOH, it is possible to guide a child into being somewhat competitive when it's appropriate. For instance, a few years ago I took my girls then aged 4 and 5 to a 4th of July parade. Groups marching in the parade were throwing handfuls of candy to the spectators. Kids would run around and gather as much as they could. My oldest was being "nice" and letting other kids "go first". She was getting upset that the other kids were scooping up everything and not "leaving anything for her" (just explaining her mindset). I took her aside and explained that sometimes you have to go after what you want, and get to it before other people do. It's nice to share, but sometimes you have to go out and grab your fair share. She said "ok Daddy" and the next candy that got tossed our way, she was right in the middle of it, one eye on the ground and one eye on the other kids. She listened to what she was told, gave it a try, and it worked. It was like flipping a switch. She's now very competitive when the stakes are for something she wants or cares about. The key is, there has to be something that they want to compete for. "They should want to win for the sake of winning" is meaningless. They have to experience or get something positive after competing and winning. Competitiveness is learned by competing and winning something worthwhile. Motivation follows behavior, it doesn't precede it. |
| 2009-09-01 9:13 AM in reply to: #2382018 |
| Champion 11989 Philly 'burbs | Subject: RE: Can you teach competitiveness.? wgraves7582 - 2009-09-01 8:37 AM Well as I told my softball teammates this year when they start paying me to play a game then I will go from participation to competition. What does that mean exactly? It's a team sport, and the object is to score more runs than the other team, how do you participate rather than compete? |
| 2009-09-01 9:22 AM in reply to: #2382237 |
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| 2009-09-01 9:40 AM in reply to: #2382264 |
| Champion 11989 Philly 'burbs | Subject: RE: Can you teach competitiveness.? wgraves7582 - 2009-09-01 10:22 AM mrbbrad - 2009-09-01 10:13 AM wgraves7582 - 2009-09-01 8:37 AM Well as I told my softball teammates this year when they start paying me to play a game then I will go from participation to competition. What does that mean exactly? It's a team sport, and the object is to score more runs than the other team, how do you participate rather than compete? As with all team games there are different levels IMHO. I was there to have fun and not get all upset over performance, but here are a couple of examples: Running into chain link fences trying to catch a foul ball. Crazy stuff like that. I tried but I was not going to do something that could get me injured (within my control). Our first baseman had his leg slide under a chain link fence (a dip in the ground) and luckily he did not get injured but it was pretty clear that he got lucky. Also, getting upset over losing and poor sportsmanship counts in my book. Maybe not a great example but it is all I have. But you do run out a grounder, right? |
| 2009-09-01 10:05 AM in reply to: #2382313 |
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| 2009-09-01 10:12 AM in reply to: #2382237 |
| Alpharetta, Georgia | Subject: RE: Can you teach competitiveness.? mrbbrad - 2009-09-01 9:13 AM wgraves7582 - 2009-09-01 8:37 AM Well as I told my softball teammates this year when they start paying me to play a game then I will go from participation to competition. What does that mean exactly? It's a team sport, and the object is to score more runs than the other team, how do you participate rather than compete? Is this a serious question? You honestly don't know how to participate without being competitive? |
| 2009-09-01 10:41 AM in reply to: #2382419 |
| Champion 11989 Philly 'burbs | Subject: RE: Can you teach competitiveness.? lisac957 - 2009-09-01 11:12 AM mrbbrad - 2009-09-01 9:13 AM wgraves7582 - 2009-09-01 8:37 AM Well as I told my softball teammates this year when they start paying me to play a game then I will go from participation to competition. What does that mean exactly? It's a team sport, and the object is to score more runs than the other team, how do you participate rather than compete? Is this a serious question? You honestly don't know how to participate without being competitive? Very serious. I don't know how to participate in a team sport that has a clear objective without being competitive. I don't know how to participate in anything where the object is to get a better score or faster time without being competitive. There is a finish line for a reason. There is a score board for a reason. I can (and do) participate in activities without being competitive, but if there is going to be a winner you can damn sure bet I'm gonna do my best to be that winner. And by winner I mean actual winner, as in first, or most points, or fewest strokes, etc. Not that "everyone is a winner for trying" crap. Everyone may have achieved a personal goal, or had some success, but only one team or one individual is THE winner. I also believe in sportsmanship and winning or losing with class and dignity. I will crash into the fence going after a foul ball in a pick up softball game. I will encourage my teammates to hustle and do their best. I do not like to lose, but I will not pout, scream, or throw stuff if I do. My stock response the those "It's just a game" or "just play for fun" statements is; Losing is not fun. I'm gonna go on a metaphysical tangent here..... If score is kept then I presume the object is to win. It is a disservice to oneself, the others involved, to the activity itself, to the very universe if one does not do one's best to win. |
| 2009-09-01 11:14 AM in reply to: #2382419 |
| Member 381 | Subject: RE: Can you teach competitiveness.? lisac957 - 2009-09-01 9:12 AM mrbbrad - 2009-09-01 9:13 AM wgraves7582 - 2009-09-01 8:37 AM Well as I told my softball teammates this year when they start paying me to play a game then I will go from participation to competition. What does that mean exactly? It's a team sport, and the object is to score more runs than the other team, how do you participate rather than compete? Is this a serious question? You honestly don't know how to participate without being competitive? for softball its called batting practice. otherwise, i think that participating in an event where an individual or team "wins" implies competition. whether a person is acting competitively may be another question. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Competition |
| 2009-09-01 11:17 AM in reply to: #2382502 |
| Member 381 | Subject: RE: Can you teach competitiveness.? mrbbrad - 2009-09-01 9:41 AM lisac957 - 2009-09-01 11:12 AM mrbbrad - 2009-09-01 9:13 AM wgraves7582 - 2009-09-01 8:37 AM Well as I told my softball teammates this year when they start paying me to play a game then I will go from participation to competition. What does that mean exactly? It's a team sport, and the object is to score more runs than the other team, how do you participate rather than compete? Is this a serious question? You honestly don't know how to participate without being competitive? Very serious. I don't know how to participate in a team sport that has a clear objective without being competitive. I don't know how to participate in anything where the object is to get a better score or faster time without being competitive. There is a finish line for a reason. There is a score board for a reason. I can (and do) participate in activities without being competitive, but if there is going to be a winner you can damn sure bet I'm gonna do my best to be that winner. And by winner I mean actual winner, as in first, or most points, or fewest strokes, etc. Not that "everyone is a winner for trying" crap. Everyone may have achieved a personal goal, or had some success, but only one team or one individual is THE winner. I also believe in sportsmanship and winning or losing with class and dignity. I will crash into the fence going after a foul ball in a pick up softball game. I will encourage my teammates to hustle and do their best. I do not like to lose, but I will not pout, scream, or throw stuff if I do. My stock response the those "It's just a game" or "just play for fun" statements is; Losing is not fun. I'm gonna go on a metaphysical tangent here..... If score is kept then I presume the object is to win. It is a disservice to oneself, the others involved, to the activity itself, to the very universe if one does not do one's best to win. this is a good point that is getting lost, here. without competition is sportsmanship even relevant? i think that it is in the spirit of competition that kids can really learn much about sportsmanship. |
| 2009-09-01 12:27 PM in reply to: #2382502 |
| Champion 14571 the alamo city, Texas | Subject: RE: Can you teach competitiveness.? mrbbrad - 2009-09-01 11:41 AM lisac957 - 2009-09-01 11:12 AM mrbbrad - 2009-09-01 9:13 AM wgraves7582 - 2009-09-01 8:37 AM Well as I told my softball teammates this year when they start paying me to play a game then I will go from participation to competition. What does that mean exactly? It's a team sport, and the object is to score more runs than the other team, how do you participate rather than compete? Is this a serious question? You honestly don't know how to participate without being competitive? Very serious. I don't know how to participate in a team sport that has a clear objective without being competitive. I don't know how to participate in anything where the object is to get a better score or faster time without being competitive. There is a finish line for a reason. There is a score board for a reason. I can (and do) participate in activities without being competitive, but if there is going to be a winner you can damn sure bet I'm gonna do my best to be that winner. And by winner I mean actual winner, as in first, or most points, or fewest strokes, etc. Not that "everyone is a winner for trying" crap. Everyone may have achieved a personal goal, or had some success, but only one team or one individual is THE winner. I also believe in sportsmanship and winning or losing with class and dignity. I will crash into the fence going after a foul ball in a pick up softball game. I will encourage my teammates to hustle and do their best. I do not like to lose, but I will not pout, scream, or throw stuff if I do. My stock response the those "It's just a game" or "just play for fun" statements is; Losing is not fun. I'm gonna go on a metaphysical tangent here..... If score is kept then I presume the object is to win. It is a disservice to oneself, the others involved, to the activity itself, to the very universe if one does not do one's best to win. i play on a rec volleyball league, and while i try my hardest, i'm just there to have fun, it IS just a game. sure, the object of the game is to win, but even when i lose, i've had a good time with my friends. so, yes, i participate in a sport where the objective is to win and don't need to be competetive about it. |
| 2009-09-01 12:48 PM in reply to: #2380193 |
| Master 1895 | Subject: RE: Can you teach competitiveness.? What's the point of being on a team and playing in a league if you don't care whether you win or lose? Why not just gather a few friends and play for fun your back yard? If they're keeping score, then my intent is to win. I will do my best to help my team win. And yes, even if it's a beer league or a co-ed league....I will still be disappointed if we lose. It won't ruin my week, but it is SO much more fun to come out the winner. That is why we play. That is why we drive 35 minutes in a blizzard to make our 11:50pm Sunday night ice time. Because it does matter and it is that much more rewarding when to play your heart out and win as a team.
Edited by hamiltks10 2009-09-01 12:58 PM |
| 2009-09-01 3:35 PM in reply to: #2381954 |
| Elite 4547 | Subject: RE: Can you teach competitiveness.? wgraves7582 - 2009-09-01 7:54 AM I think you are going down a dangerous path. This is my son's first year at football and they were doing this man vs man (kid vs kid) drill where they pushed each other out of a circle. He did not even do it. I was pizzed beyond belief and actually almost went on the field to make him get in the circle but I didn't. So when he took a water break I asked him why he didn't participate. Lot of excuses but long story short I was still pizzed. On the way home I told him that he wanted to play football and that involves doing all the drills that the coaches have them do unless he is hurt. I told him he was not out there for my approval but he will finish the year out because he committed. I told him that I can easily find other stuff to do 3-4 nights a week for 3 hours of travel to football, practice and travel home and the 2 hours on Saturday for games and that I don't need him to play football to make my life more congested than it already is. At the end of the day it is up to my son to become what he does on the field and in life. I can just guide him. We live in a pretty wealthy area (all but me I take it your son knew what was expected of him when he signed up, right? I guess we have to make sure the kids aren't just expressing interest in participating in a sport because we as parents are interested in the sport. Football is a violent sport and in my eyes it's kind of like enlisting in the armed forces...it's not for everybody. I'd have to question whether or not I'd keep my son in a sport he wasn't committed to 100%. In a sport like football, it could be dangerous. |
) with the exception of 1 area and those kids are the most aggressive and competitive kids on the team. Why? IMHO they are not given everything like the other kids are. Their parents are not as easy with the giving out of IPods, XBox, Play Stations, and everything else imaginable. Not saying that is how you are with your kids but I really think that has a lot to do with it today.| 2009-09-01 4:05 PM in reply to: #2382902 |
| Alpharetta, Georgia | Subject: RE: Can you teach competitiveness.? hamiltks10 - 2009-09-01 12:48 PM What's the point of being on a team and playing in a league if you don't care whether you win or lose? Why not just gather a few friends and play for fun your back yard? To have fun? To socialize? To catch up with friends? To pass the time doing something besides sitting at home? To be a part of something bigger than your backyard/be a part of a group/society? I could go on. Clearly, I do not have that "competitive" spirit. My parents did not push or encourage me to be in team sports as a child (ever! werid huh). I was that kid who was good at music and while I was encouraged to get better and be competitive in that arena, it is a completely different world than we're talking about here. Or at least my parents treated it differently than I saw some "sports parents" treating my friends. It was encourated, supported, and rewarded. But it was never the biggest part of my life, or anything close. Being competitive or being the best/winning a competition was the icing on the cake, and I was taught to be thankful and humble about doing well - nothing more. I have never played on a team or in organized sports of any kind so it does baffle me to hear that people honestly don't know how to just have fun at something where a score is kept, and not compete. Not that it's wrong, I honestly just don't get it. |
| 2009-09-01 4:24 PM in reply to: #2382502 |
| Pro 6767 the Alabama part of Pennsylvania | Subject: RE: Can you teach competitiveness.? mrbbrad - 2009-09-01 11:41 AM lisac957 - 2009-09-01 11:12 AM mrbbrad - 2009-09-01 9:13 AM wgraves7582 - 2009-09-01 8:37 AM Well as I told my softball teammates this year when they start paying me to play a game then I will go from participation to competition. What does that mean exactly? It's a team sport, and the object is to score more runs than the other team, how do you participate rather than compete? Is this a serious question? You honestly don't know how to participate without being competitive? Very serious. I don't know how to participate in a team sport that has a clear objective without being competitive. I don't know how to participate in anything where the object is to get a better score or faster time without being competitive. There is a finish line for a reason. There is a score board for a reason. I can (and do) participate in activities without being competitive, but if there is going to be a winner you can damn sure bet I'm gonna do my best to be that winner. And by winner I mean actual winner, as in first, or most points, or fewest strokes, etc. Not that "everyone is a winner for trying" crap. Everyone may have achieved a personal goal, or had some success, but only one team or one individual is THE winner. I also believe in sportsmanship and winning or losing with class and dignity. I will crash into the fence going after a foul ball in a pick up softball game. I will encourage my teammates to hustle and do their best. I do not like to lose, but I will not pout, scream, or throw stuff if I do. My stock response the those "It's just a game" or "just play for fun" statements is; Losing is not fun. I'm gonna go on a metaphysical tangent here..... If score is kept then I presume the object is to win. It is a disservice to oneself, the others involved, to the activity itself, to the very universe if one does not do one's best to win. Except I bet you are not 100% true to this sentiment. If you were, you would DNF a lot of races, once it was clear you are not going to be "the winner". Your race log show you finish strong, but nowheres near being a contender (not that I am - I am very much a BOP racer). So the finish line is there, but not so you can out-compete the other racers, but so you know when to stop. I'm not disparaging the idea of competing against yourself (can I get a better time than last year/last race/training?) - it's pretty much what I do. But you are saying very clearly here that your goal is to be the overall winner. Once you know that won't happen, you should stop running. The only thing that you are doing at that point is putting yourself at risk of an injury, which would sideline you from competing later. Stop running, and start to plan the training for the next race, if your only goal is to "the actual winner". |
| 2009-09-01 8:36 PM in reply to: #2383509 |
| Champion 11989 Philly 'burbs | Subject: RE: Can you teach competitiveness.? lisac957 - 2009-09-01 5:05 PM it does baffle me to hear that people honestly don't know how to just have fun at something where a score is kept, and not compete. You seem to be equating competing with not having fun. Competing to win IS fun. |
| 2009-09-01 8:45 PM in reply to: #2383538 |
| Champion 11989 Philly 'burbs | Subject: RE: Can you teach competitiveness.? gearboy - 2009-09-01 5:24 PM mrbbrad - 2009-09-01 11:41 AM lisac957 - 2009-09-01 11:12 AM mrbbrad - 2009-09-01 9:13 AM wgraves7582 - 2009-09-01 8:37 AM Well as I told my softball teammates this year when they start paying me to play a game then I will go from participation to competition. What does that mean exactly? It's a team sport, and the object is to score more runs than the other team, how do you participate rather than compete? Is this a serious question? You honestly don't know how to participate without being competitive? Very serious. I don't know how to participate in a team sport that has a clear objective without being competitive. I don't know how to participate in anything where the object is to get a better score or faster time without being competitive. There is a finish line for a reason. There is a score board for a reason. I can (and do) participate in activities without being competitive, but if there is going to be a winner you can damn sure bet I'm gonna do my best to be that winner. And by winner I mean actual winner, as in first, or most points, or fewest strokes, etc. Not that "everyone is a winner for trying" crap. Everyone may have achieved a personal goal, or had some success, but only one team or one individual is THE winner. I also believe in sportsmanship and winning or losing with class and dignity. I will crash into the fence going after a foul ball in a pick up softball game. I will encourage my teammates to hustle and do their best. I do not like to lose, but I will not pout, scream, or throw stuff if I do. My stock response the those "It's just a game" or "just play for fun" statements is; Losing is not fun. I'm gonna go on a metaphysical tangent here..... If score is kept then I presume the object is to win. It is a disservice to oneself, the others involved, to the activity itself, to the very universe if one does not do one's best to win. Except I bet you are not 100% true to this sentiment. If you were, you would DNF a lot of races, once it was clear you are not going to be "the winner". Your race log show you finish strong, but nowheres near being a contender (not that I am - I am very much a BOP racer). So the finish line is there, but not so you can out-compete the other racers, but so you know when to stop. I'm not disparaging the idea of competing against yourself (can I get a better time than last year/last race/training?) - it's pretty much what I do. But you are saying very clearly here that your goal is to be the overall winner. Once you know that won't happen, you should stop running. The only thing that you are doing at that point is putting yourself at risk of an injury, which would sideline you from competing later. Stop running, and start to plan the training for the next race, if your only goal is to "the actual winner". I understand your point, but don't see how you get from A to B. I didn't say it was win or nothing for me. I do my best. Period. Some games I can win, some I can't. I am not a win at all cost guy or clearly I would not race. But you'd better believe I see how close (or far) I came from the winner, or my AG, or people from my same town, or people I know. I usually finish in the top 20% - 30% overall so I beat more people than beat me so I take some solace in that. |
| 2009-09-01 8:57 PM in reply to: #2383538 |
| Sneaky Slow 8694 Herndon, VA, | Subject: RE: Can you teach competitiveness.? gearboy - 2009-09-01 5:24 PM Except I bet you are not 100% true to this sentiment. If you were, you would DNF a lot of races, once it was clear you are not going to be "the winner". Your race log show you finish strong, but nowheres near being a contender (not that I am - I am very much a BOP racer). So the finish line is there, but not so you can out-compete the other racers, but so you know when to stop. I'm not disparaging the idea of competing against yourself (can I get a better time than last year/last race/training?) - it's pretty much what I do. But you are saying very clearly here that your goal is to be the overall winner. Once you know that won't happen, you should stop running. The only thing that you are doing at that point is putting yourself at risk of an injury, which would sideline you from competing later. Stop running, and start to plan the training for the next race, if your only goal is to "the actual winner". This is nonsense. Tiger Woods, Michael Jordan, to give a couple examples, are probably among the most competitive people in the world. Tiger's goal is to win every golf tournament he enters, and Jordan's goal was to win the championship every year. There were and are many times in both of their careers where it became evident that they weren't going to win the tournament, or the championship. Following your logic, they should have just stopped... walked off the course, sat down on the bench, because all they are doing is risking injury. Pretty ridiculous. |
| 2009-09-01 9:01 PM in reply to: #2383936 |
| Pro 6767 the Alabama part of Pennsylvania | Subject: RE: Can you teach competitiveness.? mrbbrad - 2009-09-01 9:45 PM gearboy - 2009-09-01 5:24 PM mrbbrad - 2009-09-01 11:41 AM lisac957 - 2009-09-01 11:12 AM mrbbrad - 2009-09-01 9:13 AM wgraves7582 - 2009-09-01 8:37 AM Well as I told my softball teammates this year when they start paying me to play a game then I will go from participation to competition. What does that mean exactly? It's a team sport, and the object is to score more runs than the other team, how do you participate rather than compete? Is this a serious question? You honestly don't know how to participate without being competitive? Very serious. I don't know how to participate in a team sport that has a clear objective without being competitive. I don't know how to participate in anything where the object is to get a better score or faster time without being competitive. There is a finish line for a reason. There is a score board for a reason. I can (and do) participate in activities without being competitive, but if there is going to be a winner you can damn sure bet I'm gonna do my best to be that winner. And by winner I mean actual winner, as in first, or most points, or fewest strokes, etc. Not that "everyone is a winner for trying" crap. Everyone may have achieved a personal goal, or had some success, but only one team or one individual is THE winner. I also believe in sportsmanship and winning or losing with class and dignity. I will crash into the fence going after a foul ball in a pick up softball game. I will encourage my teammates to hustle and do their best. I do not like to lose, but I will not pout, scream, or throw stuff if I do. My stock response the those "It's just a game" or "just play for fun" statements is; Losing is not fun. I'm gonna go on a metaphysical tangent here..... If score is kept then I presume the object is to win. It is a disservice to oneself, the others involved, to the activity itself, to the very universe if one does not do one's best to win. Except I bet you are not 100% true to this sentiment. If you were, you would DNF a lot of races, once it was clear you are not going to be "the winner". Your race log show you finish strong, but nowheres near being a contender (not that I am - I am very much a BOP racer). So the finish line is there, but not so you can out-compete the other racers, but so you know when to stop. I'm not disparaging the idea of competing against yourself (can I get a better time than last year/last race/training?) - it's pretty much what I do. But you are saying very clearly here that your goal is to be the overall winner. Once you know that won't happen, you should stop running. The only thing that you are doing at that point is putting yourself at risk of an injury, which would sideline you from competing later. Stop running, and start to plan the training for the next race, if your only goal is to "the actual winner". I understand your point, but don't see how you get from A to B. I didn't say it was win or nothing for me. I do my best. Period. Some games I can win, some I can't. I am not a win at all cost guy or clearly I would not race. But you'd better believe I see how close (or far) I came from the winner, or my AG, or people from my same town, or people I know. I usually finish in the top 20% - 30% overall so I beat more people than beat me so I take some solace in that. Here's my A to B path: You say your goal is to win. And that anything less is a "disservice to the very universe". So once you know you will not win, by this reasoning, you MUST stop. Because you either intend to (a) try to compete at a later event (hence my comment about stop now to prevent injury and instead focus on training harder for the next event), (b) never to try again because you will always be outraced, and therefore you should stop so you don't dishonor the sport itself. But I believe the other parts of your original post (that I did not hightlight) are probably closer to your real beliefs - sportsmanship and being a class act. And I suspect that if we were in the same race, after you beat me (which would absolutely happen, since I am NOT in the top 20-30%), we could still talk about the race and have a good time. |
| 2009-09-01 9:07 PM in reply to: #2383936 |
| Regular 534 Philadelphia | Subject: RE: Can you teach competitiveness.? mrbbrad - 2009-09-01 9:45 PM I beat more people than beat me so I take some solace in that. Is this the key difference? That some people take pleasure in beating other people, and some don't? Is there anything wrong with that? |
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