Steve-'s Distance Endurance Group - CLOSED (Page 3)

Is there an ideal cadence for the bike?  I find that I am stuck at about 82 or so.  Should I decrease the load and get that up to 90 at the same effort for ideal efficiency? Or is it very individual.  The 88-90 cadence works very well for me in my running, I am not sure why the bike is so different for me.  Is it just practice?  Should I be doing drills for this?

Biking is not as natural to me as running, but I really want to improve my cycling strength and fitness...so it is not so hard to run off the bike.

Thanks!

cadence is a personal preference and you need to find your balance.  higher cadence on the bike transfers the load more to your cardiovascular system (i.e. lungs/heart) and lower cadence on the bike transfers the load more to your muscular system (i.e. legs).

consequently,  if you have super strong power legs then you can get away with a lower cadence and still be able to run off the bike well, however, most triathletes don't and typically find optimal cadence to be between 85-95rpm.

the general idea is find the right cadence that allows you to ride for hours on the bike and output good power but not completely fatigue your leg muscles so you can still run off the bike sprightly.

as with anything, increasing your cadence to something that's higher but still comfortable takes training and that's the reason behind the spin up drills. 

Suzy - great question on the goal weight.  Lots of opinions on this one.   Everyone is different, but from my own experience, and athletes I train and train with, there is most likely an optimal race weight for each person.  And it may change from season to season (based on muscle gain, etc.).  I know that I typically carry an extra few pounds during the off season, but I *try* to keep it very close to my race weight.  Otherwise, we see athletes try to lose weight during the race season and skimp on nutrition to get down to race weight.  And this is the wrong thing to do, b/c the body needs that nutrition to get through their workouts and more importantly recover from those workouts.

I have seen people get so obsessed with getting thinner to gain the "2 seconds/ pound" and just end up sick and/or injured.   Work on good eating habits (fruits, vegatables, lean meats, etc.), and do the work and the rest should take care of itself.  Body composition is the key.

I take liquid nutrition (usually chocolate milk, used to do endurox but got expensive, or even ensure if I need something and am on the road) on longer workouts (1.5 hours or more).  During the race season, I make my own recovery drink that an endurance nutritionist gave me the recipe for.  Basically, its some plain yogurt,  berries of your choice (blueberries, strawberries, rasberries, acai), a banana, some flax seed, milk or OJ, 1 scoop protien powder, ice).  It has a great ratio of carbs/protien, its all natural, and it also has a ton of antioxidants.  Its much cheaper than endurox b/c I buy the stuff in bulk from Sam's (frozen berries for slush action).  And its really, really good. 

Race nutrition is a whole other animal....

Scott, what kind of protein powder do you use? I can do greek yogurt, but try to avoid milk. I am allergic to it and it causes me all sorts of problems. I am looking for a simple/cheap post recovery drink that doesn't cost an arm and a leg. It looks like your recipe fits the bill.

Are there protien powders that are vegetarian?  I've never even looked, but now that I think about it, I'm assuming they are mostly whey based?

Steve,
Here is my late profile response, sorry about that. I couldn't receive message from this forum for some reason.
Steve,

I'd like to throw my hat in the ring and join your Mentor Group.


NAME: Ken/Shunshun

STORY:  I always wanted to be belong to a team that I can use my energy. However, I have never been in a basket ball team in high school, nor running track in college. What I was drawn to was choirs, concerts, opera performance. I had professional training for classical singing for years.  I am now 30 years old. I still do not satisfy with my life style. I was inspired by the Ironman competition in Kona in 2004, and two months after that, I did the Honolulu Marathon. After crossing the finish line, I knew I could and wanted to do more.


FAMILY STATUS:  - Single.

CURRENT TRAINING: I am using BT beginner sprint program, focusing on swimming.

2009 RACES:  n/a

2010 RACES:  I don't have one, yet. My training in CA will last for two years, everyday I will have an hour to exercise. I would like to dedicate it to triathlon training. I want to be one of the Ironmans.


WEIGHTLOSS: My weight has been consistent of being 195-196 lb from last year this time till now.

Tracy - I use whatever they have on sale at vitamin world or Sam's.  A sales associate at VW told me they are all about the same.  One will tell you they have more amino this or amino that.  Bottom line is all of them are full of all the branched chain amino acids (BCAAS) you need.  What I will check, however, is the serving size and how many servings you get per bag/bottle.  That makes price comparison much easier.    With a coupon or my VW discount, I usually get it for about $.50 a serving.  sometimes a little more.  Bananas are way cheap, and I just buy a bunch and freeze them. 

AGain, not a nutritionist, but this recipe came from one.  And she said that you can vary the amounts to your taste.    Its really good, and I bet you notice a difference after a real hard workout.

Just to clarify....I like Hammer for on the bike nutrition not post workout.

Whoops didn't mean to put words in your mouth Steve.

I think I have some protein powder at home. I have a blender that currently gets no use. The only thing I don't have is flax. I know I have some for making soap, but from what I have heard it needs to be frozen for some reason. I think it oxidizes quickly.

KT,
I also wondered about the cadence issue when it comes to tri's.  One thing I think you should also consider is the fatigue that you do to your nervous system.  Of course the main issue is the fatigue placed on your muscles and joints when cadence goes up.  If you go to high of RPM's then you risk burning out by the time you get to the run, and to low RPM's might be too high a gear and trash your legs. 
The part I wanted to illustrate here is the fatigue that you place on your nerves having to fire your muscles when you incorporate too high a cadence.  This would result in the inability to incorporate those fast twitch muscles when needed on the run. 

Steve maybe you can bring in the research portion or your own opinion regarding this issue when you get the chance.  I believe that the "Zen and the Art of Triathlon" podcast addressed this issue in one of their last podcasts.

Of course I have to also state the dislaimer:  You have to find out what works for you.
Especially when you're considering the different distances involved in your races throughout the year.  The cadence issue would have a lot to do with the distance you are training or racing in.

I am unaware of any fatigue that is experienced by the nervous system (either the central nervous system or the peripheral nervous system).  I'd be interested in learning what you know about this Eddie.

It is my understanding that the nervous system is simply a two-way conduit for electrical impulses (aka information) from the brain to the muscles.

specifically regarding paddles and high elbow catch...i'm not certain that would be the best for you.  paddles accentuate the pressure of water against your palm; whereas the high elbow (EVF) accentuates the pressure of water against your forearm and bicep/tricep.

http://www.facebook.com/video/video.php?v=1276387596146&oid=157848632400

to get a sense of high elbow catch, you need to rotate your elbow up first to feel pressure in your front deltoid as you begin to pull back.  if you don't feel the pressure in your front deltoid when pulling back you are not getting your elbow rotated up (towards the surface of the water) and your forarm down (45 degrees to the bottom of the pool) before you initiate backward movement of your elbow.

I have ordering a stationary stroke trainer for the pool that should arrive before our next swim lesson, i think that will help you get a sense of what EVF feels like.

Oh yea, I forgot to mention this and since its so close to Xmas, if you are looking for a good gift for yourself, check this out (and its related to recovery drink posts from above):

http://www.amazon.com/Shake-Take-Sports-Bottle-Blender/dp/B000I6L0GE

I use this to make my shakes and the thing is awesome.  I got the extra bottles, too, but not needed (I have them to make shakes for the kids, etc.).  It does crush ice and it is so fast.  I usually make the shake above as I am leaving for work, and then you just drink, and clean and its ready for the next use.  One of my favorite triathlon toys, and no I am not affiliated with them in anyway.  Just thought I would share.

Steve,
Evidently the information is in the September issue of Triathlete Magazine (it's the one with the founder of FuelBelt on the front cover)

Brent from Zen & the Art of Triathlon discusses it around the 45th minute of his podcast issued on 10/1/2009: http://itunes.apple.com/WebObjects/MZStore.woa/wa/viewPodcast?i=61161513&id=76096322

To add a correction, the neuromuscular system is what they reference as getting fatigued and not the nervous system as I incorrectly stated above.  Let me/us know what you know or find out about that theory...

it is extremely difficult to apply this theory across athletes because each athlete has (1) different athletic background, (2) different time in the sport, and (3) different limiters.

additionally he states "lower RPM gives you lower HR...wears you out slower".  but this is not true all the time.  specificity of training can adapt an athlete to this.

Just because you have lower RPM doesn't mean you will have a lower HR at the same watts all the time.  I am unaware of this being fact all the time for all athletes.  By way of example, an athlete that has more force on the bike (i.e. can push 950w for 5 sec but an FTP of 260w) compared to an athlete of the same weight that has less force on the bike (i.e. can push 650w for 5 sec with the same FTP of 260w); the athlete with less force on the bike will most likely "wear out faster" than the one that has more force if they both pushed FTP for 1.5 hours at 70rpm.

I have not read the triathlete mag article and am simply engaging in this discussion from the podcast you referenced but the article may be discussing the outcome of a study that was published which has shown that higher RPMs is not always optimal as originally thought.  It illustrated that the higher FTP of the athlete, the lower the optimal RPM would be for that athlete, but if the athlete had a lower FTP, then a higher RPM is optimal.

The bottom line is that training is both an art and a science.  While peer reviewed research is fine and dandy, it really comes down to how the athlete performs on race day and not what the research says...right?  Research is used by coaches as a level-set device and a foundation for methodology, the real value in a coach (or a self-coached athlete as the case may be) is them having knowledge of and understanding this research and the fundamental physiology contributing to the cause-and-effect and adjusting from this basis to what is optimal for that particular athlete based on the coach's practical experience in the sport coupled with their practical experience coaching athletes in the sport.

So, as almost everything in this sport, "it depends"   


Edited by Steve- 2009-12-22 10:31 PM

5am, 19deg, 12mph winds.  awesome!   only thing better would be 4:30am, 5deg, and 20mph winds. 

keep posting this stuff as it should help motivate others to keep at it over these next super cold/dark months.   I love this stuff!

Nice job Ryan!

as for me, 4:45am swim this morning.

I got up early for the third morning in a row to do my swim workout. By 5:00 am I was off the Y. Swam with 2 women I have seen swimming before and my friend Scott. We were doing fast 50s, which happen to be my favorite in the pool. Our times were 37-40 seconds. I can't believe how much faster a person can swim when you have others swimming with you. I would typically swim a 45 second 50 on my own. Had a great workout this morning.

These girls swim typically on Fridays. I may join them for workouts every once in a blue moon. I am fairly out of shape right now when it comes to swimming. I can't keep up with them for a whole workout. I am hoping by the end of Jan I can.

We are in South Florida for the holidays. Lots of family and craziness. However, I should be able to get all my running in in prep for the Disney half on 1/9, as most of my siblings and in-laws are running it too; so we should have some pretty good group runs.

Rymac I wont complain about my 48 degree run at 6 am today with the dog. It was a quick and easy 4 miler. Did my long run the other afternoon (16) tuning up for the Gasparilla Marathon. Doing some mtb on trails and camping in Alafia State campground to do some good rides over the kids break. You guys should come down here and thaw out.

I tend to get extremely jealous of you southerns during winter up here. The roads are way toooo icy by to even think of running outside.