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2005-11-04 12:25 PM
in reply to: #278038

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Subject: RE: Bill Clinton is pathological liar!!!!

I think we are at a stalemate with this one.... my goal was to get my posts over 200 and I’ve surpassed my original goal…. Jim, no hard feelings?? Just have to say that because political discourse can cause bad blood…



2005-11-04 12:26 PM
in reply to: #278236

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Giver
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Subject: RE: Bill Clinton is pathological liar!!!!
Stalemate? I thought I won?

Heh...of course no hard feelings. I can argue anything, no matter if I agree with what I'm saying or not. It's just fun. BUt, ya know, in this case I do.

ott13979 - 2005-11-04 12:25 PM

I think we are at a stalemate with this one.... my goal was to get my posts over 200 and I’ve surpassed my original goal…. Jim, no hard feelings?? Just have to say that because political discourse can cause bad blood…

2005-11-04 12:37 PM
in reply to: #278038

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Subject: RE: Bill Clinton is pathological liar!!!!
A question and an observation:

1) How much did Clinton have to get under the skin of the (self-defined) right for his utterances to still raise hackles more than 8 years after leaving office?

2) Yes, it is entirely possible that a future Rhodes Scholar who excelled at every level of his education not only was aware of Rosa Parks at 9 years old, but had a good idea what was going on with the civil rights movement in general.
2005-11-04 12:38 PM
in reply to: #278062

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Subject: RE: Bill Clinton is pathological liar!!!!

run4yrlif - 2005-11-04 7:33 AM Well, my 5yo daughter goes to a mostly black school, so I have at least a bit of insight as to how a child sees the world of race, and I think sure, why not. It was a significant, widely reported event in American history, even then (from what I've heard...I'm not 59). I have no doubt that it got families to talking about the issue when it was on the news. And also, kids are pretty smart, as it turns out.

When I was that age, I remember kids using the "N" word and cringing.

I remember having plenty of conversations with my parents about race and color and prejudice at that age.  My next door neighbor was black and my grandmother would tell me not to play with her.  I couldn'd understand why.  I would go to family gatherings where we would pray before each meal that "Jesus, make us an instrument of your will" and then they would sit at dinner and spew all kinds of hatred and vile language (the "N" word was very common) about "race relations".  Mind you, this was in the early-to-mid 70s in Louisiana, and the Civil Rights Movement was still fresh, still going. 

I may not have been mature enough to understand all the aspects of race in our society (Hell, I'm 35 and I still don't), but having strong parents who were determinded to teach me right from wrong, and expose me to the "dirty" side of life as well as the efforts to change it, had an impact on me. 

I distinctly remember holding the door open at Kmart for elderly black women, and in my heart trying to use that as a way of distancing myself from the racist whites around me.  I couldn't have been older than 7 or 8 at the time.

My parents lived in Louisiana and Mississippi during the 50s and 60s.  They're the same age as Bill Clinton.  Naturally, I can't speak about their experiences, except in what they've shared with me.  They were touched by the Civil Rights movement in their youth and made a point to do what they could in their lives to make changes in their society.

2005-11-04 12:44 PM
in reply to: #278038

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Subject: RE: Bill Clinton is pathological liar!!!!
I can remember visiting my grandma when I was about that age and hear her use the term "colored" (not really in a derogatory way) and thinking that that wasn't the right thing to say.

To stoke the fire a little more - so is it ok for Karl Roves pants to go up in flames?
2005-11-04 1:05 PM
in reply to: #278038

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Subject: RE: Bill Clinton is pathological liar!!!!
I'm trying to figure out how to throw abortion and evolution into this argument and the post rate will sky rocket.

A few thoughts: He wasn't just impeached for lying, he was impeached for perjuring himself to a grand jury (as well as obstruction of justice). And the Democratic senators, gotta love 'em, voted right down party lines. Everybody lies. Not everybody lies under oath and says crap like "that depends on what you definition of 'is' is."

I tip my hat to him for the balanced budget as well. I roll my eyes at him for NAFTA. And God help him if I ever catch him in a dark alley for the way he handled Somalia and Kosovo. To this day there is no doubt in my mind that he put young soliders and airmen in harms way simply to distract from his personal issues on the home front. Let alone his overall pathetic handling of the military.

bts


2005-11-04 1:18 PM
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Subject: RE: Bill Clinton is pathological liar!!!!
Brett - 2005-11-04 2:05 PM
To this day there is no doubt in my mind that he put young soliders and airmen in harms way simply to distract from his personal issues on the home front. bts


Now that's hatred!
2005-11-04 1:19 PM
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Subject: RE: Bill Clinton is pathological liar!!!!
As a military man in the Clinton years I have to agree with you Brett......
2005-11-04 1:25 PM
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Subject: RE: Bill Clinton is pathological liar!!!!
Brett-

I understand the problems with Somalia but what about Kosovo? Wasn't that more or less a success in that we managed to pacify the region somewhat thru our (mainly airstrikes) intervention? I'm not trying to be argumentative, I just don't know as much about it and would like to hear your take on it.
2005-11-04 1:31 PM
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Subject: RE: Bill Clinton is pathological liar!!!!
Brett - 2005-11-04 11:29 AM



" But the sad fact is that politicans of all parties are guilty as can be of it.

bts


AMEN!
2005-11-04 1:38 PM
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Subject: RE: Bill Clinton is pathological liar!!!!
Rocket Man - 2005-11-04 2:19 PM

As a military man in the Clinton years I have to agree with you Brett......


With all due respect to your service to your country, I must ask: How does being a military man in the Clinton years provide you with insight into the machinations of the White House of the period to conclude that the government deliberately caused the deaths of US soldiers to distract the American public from Clinton's problems at home?

It seems to me that you must be predisposed to believe that Clinton is evil to come to such a conclusion.


2005-11-04 1:39 PM
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Subject: RE: Bill Clinton is pathological liar!!!!
Just a quick question for everyone: Is it the war in Iraq objectionable or is it the reasons for going to war?

what I mean is, had the President espoused a different reason for the war in Iraq, say a humanitarian reason or regime change, i.e. to over through a despotic, ruthless dictator that was a destabilizing presence in the region and had killed 100's of thousands of inocent people, then would that have been justified?

Is it the right war for the wrong reason or just the wrong war?

If it's the wrong war, then under what circumstances should the U.S. become involved in a war? Do humanitarian concerns ever justify a war? Is regime change a justification for war? What about protection of U.S. interests? What U.S. interests? Is war only justified when the U.S. or one of it's allies are directly attacked?

A case can be made that UN and US inaction in both Iraq, and the former Yugoslavia lead directly to increased dead, both in the civilian populations in those countries and amoungst our own armed forces. It can be argued that in fact we were ineffective not for going to war, but for failing to go to war sooner.

2005-11-04 1:42 PM
in reply to: #278326

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Subject: RE: Bill Clinton is pathological liar!!!!
drewb8 - 2005-11-04 12:25 PM

Brett-

I understand the problems with Somalia but what about Kosovo? Wasn't that more or less a success in that we managed to pacify the region somewhat thru our (mainly airstrikes) intervention? I'm not trying to be argumentative, I just don't know as much about it and would like to hear your take on it.


The mission itself was a success. The way it was handled was ridiculous (and that's not just Clinton's fault, the general overseeing the op was an idiot).

First, he made a statement that we would only use air power. This basically allowed the opposition to know that they needed to dedicate all their energy and resources to air defense, and not worry about the ground. This might have been good if it were misdirection, but it wasn't, we really only used air assets.

Second, there has been a study done that showed how Slick Willy escalated the situation or ordered more strikes whenever the press began focusing on his personal problems. My old boss was on one of the General's staff in the region and he talks about how they referred to it as "Monica's War" because they knew it was going to be a busy day for them if they heard about Monica on CNN.

A few other issues, but nothing major. The above one is the kicker for me. Using the military like it's a video game to distract from heat your catching for canoodling an intern in your office... I can't even fathom having such disregard for the life of your own troops for such a pathetically selfish end.

Somalia is more of the same. Total ignorance on his part, followed by a frantic over-reaction. I don't have a problem with us being there trying to help. I don't even mind the events of Black Hawk Down (what most people don't understand is we consider that a major victory). My favorite story is of the father of one of the Delta Force ops killed in the engagement punking the president at his son's Medal of Honor ceremony... The story itself still gives me chills.

bts

Edited by Brett 2005-11-04 1:44 PM
2005-11-04 1:45 PM
in reply to: #278038

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Subject: RE: Bill Clinton is pathological liar!!!!
I sat in a tent in the middle of the Kuwaiti desert for the better part of 8 months due to the simple fact that Slick Willy got caught with his "little willy" where it wasn't supposed to be. Saddam had been sabre rattling for months prior but it took "Monicagate" to motivate him to send troops and then when we get there they call off the war..so yes serving in the military with substandard equipment and marginal leadership qualifies me to comment. I also lived next door to the 1/75 Ranger Battalion and had friends that were in Somalia so again I think I am more than qualified to comment.
2005-11-04 1:46 PM
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Subject: RE: Bill Clinton is pathological liar!!!!
Besides Opus you aren't even a US citizen......what qualifies you to comment at all?
2005-11-04 1:47 PM
in reply to: #278361

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Giver
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Subject: RE: Bill Clinton is pathological liar!!!!
Uh...how many of us Americans have commented about Iraq's political situation?

Rocket Man - 2005-11-04 1:46 PMBesides Opus you aren't even a US citizen......what qualifies you to comment at all?


2005-11-04 1:50 PM
in reply to: #278343

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Subject: RE: Bill Clinton is pathological liar!!!!
Opus - 2005-11-04 12:38 PM

Rocket Man - 2005-11-04 2:19 PM

As a military man in the Clinton years I have to agree with you Brett......


With all due respect to your service to your country, I must ask: How does being a military man in the Clinton years provide you with insight into the machinations of the White House of the period to conclude that the government deliberately caused the deaths of US soldiers to distract the American public from Clinton's problems at home?

It seems to me that you must be predisposed to believe that Clinton is evil to come to such a conclusion.


Because I don't believe in coincidence... got this out of an old article:

Twice in 1998, Bill Clinton deployed the military force of the United States at moments when the scandal stories threatening him were reaching their most dangerous stages. The evening before Monica Lewinsky was to appear before the grand jury, Clinton struck at targets in Sudan and Afghanistan in purported revenge for the bombing of American embassies earlier that summer. In December, on the evening before the House vote on impeachment, Clinton suddenly launched an attack on Iraq, claiming the necessity of acting in advance of a fast-approaching Ramadan.


Also because we saw first hand what happens when the President neglects the military and/or misuses it.

bts
2005-11-04 1:50 PM
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Subject: RE: Bill Clinton is pathological liar!!!!
Rocket Man - 2005-11-04 11:46 AM

Besides Opus you aren't even a US citizen......what qualifies you to comment at all?


Yeah I withhold my comments because I knew that someone might say this! But I think Opus has just as much right to comment for many reasons. But also just because he lives in Montreal, how do you know that he isn't a US citizen?

Jen
2005-11-04 1:51 PM
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Subject: RE: Bill Clinton is pathological liar!!!!

Brett that was a great article on Randy Shugart.....thanks for posting it.

Jim we can comment on Iraq because we have a vested interest in the outcome of their policitcal process.

2005-11-04 1:54 PM
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Subject: RE: Bill Clinton is pathological liar!!!!
And Canadians don't have a vested interest in the outcomes of the USA's political process?
2005-11-04 1:54 PM
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Subject: RE: Bill Clinton is pathological liar!!!!

Jen my comment was not ment to offend you or any of our other Canadian friends on here, but when someone questions my qualifications to comment on something that affected me personally (i.e. military service) then I take issue with that. Especially if they do not participate in our political process.



2005-11-04 1:56 PM
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Subject: RE: Bill Clinton is pathological liar!!!!

Rocket Man - 2005-11-04 10:46 AM Besides Opus you aren't even a US citizen......what qualifies you to comment at all?

If citizens of other countries cannot comment on our foreign and/or domestic politics, then what gives the US permission to judge other countries?

As to whether the war in Iraq is a good or bad war... is there really a "good" war?  What many of us who stood against the rush to war were trying to convey was a desire to try all options other than war.  War should be a last-resort.  Sanctions, political pressure, support of opposition candidates, and other alternatives should be completely exhausted before we put our citizens and the citizens of other countries at risk. 

2005-11-04 1:57 PM
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Giver
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Subject: RE: Bill Clinton is pathological liar!!!!
Are you seriously saying that because someone doesn't live here or isn't a citizen they have no right to make comments about us? Interesting.


Rocket Man - 2005-11-04 1:51 PM

Brett that was a great article on Randy Shugart.....thanks for posting it.

Jim we can comment on Iraq because we have a vested interest in the outcome of their policitcal process.

2005-11-04 1:57 PM
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Subject: RE: Bill Clinton is pathological liar!!!!
Ok. Suppose, hypothetically speaking, that there never was a Monica Lewinsky scandal and Clinton still decided to intervene in Somalia and Kosovo. Would you still view them as mistakes or would the the intervention have been legitimatized once its intention changed from being a distraction from a scandal?
2005-11-04 1:58 PM
in reply to: #278373

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Subject: RE: Bill Clinton is pathological liar!!!!
jeng - 2005-11-04 10:54 AM

And Canadians don't have a vested interest in the outcomes of the USA's political process?


Oh, now you did it. You went and dropped the "Canada" bomb. You know you will always be like another state to us. Right after Puerto Rico and Mexico!

I'm kidding
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