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2012-08-01 8:15 PM
in reply to: #4342442

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Subject: RE: CFA part Deux

scoobysdad - 2012-08-01 9:02 PM As I see it, someone who is fighting for a new "right" (which at least half of Americans are a little dubious about) is trying to trump someone else's no-question-about--about-it First Amendment guaranteed right in the PUBLIC and LEGAL arena. Does that make sense?

No.  I'm not aware of anyone that is suggesting CFA or it's officers should be fined or imprisoned for expressing their opinions.  This simply isn't a 1A issue.  CFA, and its officer, can certainly express their opinions.  Their past, present and potential customers can express theirs.

However, I completely agree with you regarding the politicians' threats, even if they can't carry them through.

 



2012-08-01 8:16 PM
in reply to: #4342409

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Subject: RE: CFA part Deux
TheClaaaw - 2012-08-01 8:37 PM

Yeah. I am going to have to just stay out of this thread before I'm told how I don't exist since I'm a social liberal and a Christian pastor. And I'm not a young earth creationist either. 

Get with the program man.

 

2012-08-01 8:17 PM
in reply to: #4341540

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Master
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Subject: RE: CFA part Deux
I have a tattoo.... And a wife.... She is Hindu.What should I have for dinner?
2012-08-01 8:25 PM
in reply to: #4342374

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Subject: RE: CFA part Deux
Kido - 2012-08-01 7:15 PM

It was more the question/statement wondering if Christians can really be Christians and not be anti-gay...

That's a WHOLE new level of this I'm not even going to be a part of.  Talking about chicken sandwhiches is one thing.  Debating who is a "real" Christian?  Whoa.



Interesting question.

I guess I believe I should be able to freely practice my beliefs so long as they don't impact those of others and vice versa. Someone practicing homosexuality does not impact me, so there's no problem. Someone attempting to claim the right to use the word "marriage"-- which has thousands of years of both religious and non-religious tradition and meaning behind it-- to describe a non-traditional relationship... well, that does kind of impact me.

To me, the phrase "anti-gay" implies being actively opposed to and discriminatory against homosexuals. I do not feel being opposed to gay marriage equates to being anti-gay, a point I've made several times.

So I guess, yes, I believe it is possible to be Christian, be opposed to gay marriage and not be "anti-gay".



2012-08-01 8:26 PM
in reply to: #4342461

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Subject: RE: CFA part Deux

eabeam - 2012-08-01 9:17 PM What should I have for dinner?

 





(sandwich.jpg)



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2012-08-01 8:37 PM
in reply to: #4342472

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Philadelphia, south of New York and north of DC
Subject: RE: CFA part Deux

If you really want to boycott businesses that are anti-gay or anti women
you could start by not buying any products that come from OPEC.

Then I guess you could power your car with coffee from Starbucks.

Interesting phenomenon though.
I wonder what the presidential campaigns are making of it if anything. 



2012-08-01 8:57 PM
in reply to: #4342374

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Subject: RE: CFA part Deux
Kido - 2012-08-01 7:15 PM

It was more the question/statement wondering if Christians can really be Christians and not be anti-gay...

That's a WHOLE new level of this I'm not even going to be a part of.  Talking about chicken sandwhiches is one thing.  Debating who is a "real" Christian?  Whoa.

You absolutely can be Christian and not be anti-gay.  There is a HUGE difference between not supporting gay marriage and being anti-gay.  i think Scoobysdad did a great job of explaining the differences there so I won't repeat it.

2012-08-01 9:05 PM
in reply to: #4342504

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Philadelphia, south of New York and north of DC
Subject: RE: CFA part Deux

Reports in that CFA set new sales records today.

President Obama was quoted as saying, "They didn't do that on their own.
Someone else made that happen."

Yeah, like Rahm Emanuel and Thomas Menino.

The pushback on a hot button social issue just three months out from the election is really interesting.

 



Edited by dontracy 2012-08-01 9:08 PM
2012-08-01 9:07 PM
in reply to: #4342483

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Subject: RE: CFA part Deux
dontracy - 2012-08-01 8:37 PM

If you really want to boycott businesses that are anti-gay or anti women
you could start by not buying any products that come from OPEC.

Then I guess you could power your car with coffee from Starbucks.

Interesting phenomenon though.
I wonder what the presidential campaigns are making of it if anything. 

Wait, I'm confused. Does that mean that every time I fill up, I'm making a statement of support for OPEC's right to openly stand behind their religious beliefs and four thousand year old traditions?
2012-08-01 9:08 PM
in reply to: #4342524

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Subject: RE: CFA part Deux
kevin_trapp - 2012-08-01 9:07 PM
dontracy - 2012-08-01 8:37 PM

If you really want to boycott businesses that are anti-gay or anti women
you could start by not buying any products that come from OPEC.

Then I guess you could power your car with coffee from Starbucks.

Interesting phenomenon though.
I wonder what the presidential campaigns are making of it if anything. 

Wait, I'm confused. Does that mean that every time I fill up, I'm making a statement of support for OPEC's right to openly stand behind their religious beliefs and four thousand year old traditions?

It does get confusing doesn't it.  

2012-08-01 9:17 PM
in reply to: #4342524

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Philadelphia, south of New York and north of DC
Subject: RE: CFA part Deux

kevin_trapp - Wait, I'm confused. Does that mean that every time I fill up, I'm making a statement of support for OPEC's right to openly stand behind their religious beliefs and four thousand year old traditions?

Of course not.

It brings up the issue of the nature of cooperation with evil
and the difference between material cooperation with evil and formal cooperation with evil.

If you believe that CFA is evil
and you buy a sandwich from them because you want to eat and nothing more
you are materially cooperating with evil, but are not committing an evil act yourself.

On the other hand, if you believe that CFA's stance is evil and you join them in that stance,
then you are formally cooperating with evil and committing an evil act.

So I guess it's possible that anyone who ate at CFA today specifically to support them is committing an evil act
because apparently believing that marriage is between one man and one woman, and nothing else, is evil. 

My point was the lack of consistency in those who think it to be the case that CFA's position is evil.



Edited by dontracy 2012-08-01 9:19 PM


2012-08-01 9:21 PM
in reply to: #4342374

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Master
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Subject: RE: CFA part Deux
Kido - 2012-08-01 8:15 PM

It was more the question/statement wondering if Christians can really be Christians and not be anti-gay...

That's a WHOLE new level of this I'm not even going to be a part of.  Talking about chicken sandwhiches is one thing.  Debating who is a "real" Christian?  Whoa.



I posed the question simply to get an idea what others think. I believe 100 % you can be Christian and not be anti-gay but out of respect for different lifestyles I wanted other opinions. Not wanting to freak you out or bait you.

  • ..and hey, c'mon... we knew this was about more than chicken samwiches from the start

  • 2012-08-01 9:24 PM
    in reply to: #4342545

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    Master
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    Subject: RE: CFA part Deux
    What was funny was the local radio station's interpretation of what the crowds meant today. They said so it's all come down to this: "You're going to he[[ if you don't buy a chicken sandwich today." ????? They completely missed it.

    2012-08-01 10:08 PM
    in reply to: #4342545

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    Sensei
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    Subject: RE: CFA part Deux
    tri42 - 2012-08-01 7:21 PM
    Kido - 2012-08-01 8:15 PM

    It was more the question/statement wondering if Christians can really be Christians and not be anti-gay...

    That's a WHOLE new level of this I'm not even going to be a part of.  Talking about chicken sandwhiches is one thing.  Debating who is a "real" Christian?  Whoa.

    I posed the question simply to get an idea what others think. I believe 100 % you can be Christian and not be anti-gay but out of respect for different lifestyles I wanted other opinions. Not wanting to freak you out or bait you....and hey, c'mon... we knew this was about more than chicken samwiches from the start
    I understand you were not trying to bait. I'm just saying I know talks like that sometimes get nasty fast, and I'm not in the mood to be involved. I don't mind the question or if others want to debate it. Have at it! I'm getting out before it even starts.
    2012-08-01 10:11 PM
    in reply to: #4342504

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    Sensei
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    Subject: RE: CFA part Deux
    tuwood - 2012-08-01 6:57 PM
    Kido - 2012-08-01 7:15 PM

    It was more the question/statement wondering if Christians can really be Christians and not be anti-gay...

    That's a WHOLE new level of this I'm not even going to be a part of.  Talking about chicken sandwhiches is one thing.  Debating who is a "real" Christian?  Whoa.

    You absolutely can be Christian and not be anti-gay.  There is a HUGE difference between not supporting gay marriage and being anti-gay.  i think Scoobysdad did a great job of explaining the differences there so I won't repeat it.

    Hey! Don't try to include me with quotes! . I didn't ask the question and said I was punching out of this one... Not playing in this one.
    2012-08-01 10:43 PM
    in reply to: #4341540

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    Master
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    Subject: RE: CFA part Deux

    It is not confusing at all.

    1. Marriage is between a Man and a Woman.

    2. What you as a consenting adult is your business not mine.

    3. If you choose to punish me for  my beliefs you are not tolerant.

    4. If you have strong held beliefs but still allow others without those beliefs to voice them you are tolerant.



    2012-08-02 6:21 AM
    in reply to: #4341540

    Master
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    Subject: RE: CFA part Deux
    2012-08-02 7:12 AM
    in reply to: #4342471

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    Subject: RE: CFA part Deux

    scoobysdad - 2012-08-01 6:25 PM Someone attempting to claim the right to use the word "marriage"-- which has thousands of years of both religious and non-religious tradition and meaning behind it-- to describe a non-traditional relationship... well, that does kind of impact me. 

    How? Besides being a different believe than your own how will gays being allowed to marry affect you personally? I'm honestly asking because I have yet to hear a valid answer to this question besides it conflicts with peoples beliefs.

    2012-08-02 7:14 AM
    in reply to: #4342374

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    Subject: RE: CFA part Deux
    Kido - 2012-08-01 8:15 PM

    It was more the question/statement wondering if Christians can really be Christians and not be anti-gay...

    I believe this can be the case.  I consider myself Christian.  I support gay marriage.  There ya go.  Sample of 1.  Case closed. (and now I look back and see others have said the same..)

    And to answer an earlier question... I do not believe that CFA "anti-gay".  They donate to charities who happen to spend *part* of their donation on supporting traditional marriage.  These charities also do a LOT of other things.  The Fellowship of Christian Athletes for example is an organization that does a lot for children to get them into sports.

    The word "anti" is a strong word.  It mean you oppose things 100%.  It's like calling pro-choice people "anti-life".  It misconstrues the meaning.  Just because you do not support something does not mean you are anti-that something.

     

     



    Edited by TriRSquared 2012-08-02 7:19 AM
    2012-08-02 8:07 AM
    in reply to: #4342801

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    Subject: RE: CFA part Deux
    Big Appa - 2012-08-02 7:12 AM

    scoobysdad - 2012-08-01 6:25 PM Someone attempting to claim the right to use the word "marriage"-- which has thousands of years of both religious and non-religious tradition and meaning behind it-- to describe a non-traditional relationship... well, that does kind of impact me. 

    How? Besides being a different believe than your own how will gays being allowed to marry affect you personally? I'm honestly asking because I have yet to hear a valid answer to this question besides it conflicts with peoples beliefs.



    Because they are trying to redefine a word that carries a very specific meaning to it, along with a few thousand years of religious and nonreligious tradition and implications. If that word is redefined, we are not only redefining the most basic and essential relationship in our society but also retroactively changing the meaning of that word throughout our history. That impacts everyone.

    2012-08-02 8:10 AM
    in reply to: #4342890

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    Subject: RE: CFA part Deux
    scoobysdad - 2012-08-02 6:07 AM
    Big Appa - 2012-08-02 7:12 AM

    scoobysdad - 2012-08-01 6:25 PM Someone attempting to claim the right to use the word "marriage"-- which has thousands of years of both religious and non-religious tradition and meaning behind it-- to describe a non-traditional relationship... well, that does kind of impact me. 

    How? Besides being a different believe than your own how will gays being allowed to marry affect you personally? I'm honestly asking because I have yet to hear a valid answer to this question besides it conflicts with peoples beliefs.

    Because they are trying to redefine a word that carries a very specific meaning to it, along with a few thousand years of religious and nonreligious tradition and implications. If that word is redefined, we are not only redefining the most basic and essential relationship in our society but also retroactively changing the meaning of that word throughout our history. That impacts everyone.

    Again how? What will change and how? How will your marriage or your children’s marriage be affected or changed?



    2012-08-02 8:13 AM
    in reply to: #4342893

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    Subject: RE: CFA part Deux
    Big Appa - 2012-08-02 9:10 AM
    scoobysdad - 2012-08-02 6:07 AM
    Big Appa - 2012-08-02 7:12 AM

    scoobysdad - 2012-08-01 6:25 PM Someone attempting to claim the right to use the word "marriage"-- which has thousands of years of both religious and non-religious tradition and meaning behind it-- to describe a non-traditional relationship... well, that does kind of impact me. 

    How? Besides being a different believe than your own how will gays being allowed to marry affect you personally? I'm honestly asking because I have yet to hear a valid answer to this question besides it conflicts with peoples beliefs.

    Because they are trying to redefine a word that carries a very specific meaning to it, along with a few thousand years of religious and nonreligious tradition and implications. If that word is redefined, we are not only redefining the most basic and essential relationship in our society but also retroactively changing the meaning of that word throughout our history. That impacts everyone.

    Again how? What will change and how? How will your marriage or your children’s marriage be affected or changed?

    most basic and essential relationship in our society?  how is that?  you don't NEED marriage to have population growth.  doesn't divorce do far more to destroy "the most basic relationship" than 2 men in such a relationship?  (although divorce is in the bible too...)

     

    and different religions and cultures ALREADY define marriage in different ways.  none of which affect my marriage...

    2012-08-02 8:23 AM
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    Subject: RE: CFA part Deux
    Big Appa - 2012-08-02 8:10 AM

    scoobysdad - 2012-08-02 6:07 AM
    Big Appa - 2012-08-02 7:12 AM

    scoobysdad - 2012-08-01 6:25 PM Someone attempting to claim the right to use the word "marriage"-- which has thousands of years of both religious and non-religious tradition and meaning behind it-- to describe a non-traditional relationship... well, that does kind of impact me. 

    How? Besides being a different believe than your own how will gays being allowed to marry affect you personally? I'm honestly asking because I have yet to hear a valid answer to this question besides it conflicts with peoples beliefs.

    Because they are trying to redefine a word that carries a very specific meaning to it, along with a few thousand years of religious and nonreligious tradition and implications. If that word is redefined, we are not only redefining the most basic and essential relationship in our society but also retroactively changing the meaning of that word throughout our history. That impacts everyone.

    Again how? What will change and how? How will your marriage or your children’s marriage be affected or changed?



    See George Orwell. Words and their meanings are powerful tools (or weapons).

    There's a reason PETA wanted everyone to start calling fish "sea kittens".

    If the word "marriage" wasn't so important, why are gays fighting so hard for it? Why not simply agree to "civil union" and all the legal rights typically associated with marriage?


    2012-08-02 8:23 AM
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    Subject: RE: CFA part Deux
    Big Appa - 2012-08-02 8:10 AM

    scoobysdad - 2012-08-02 6:07 AM
    Big Appa - 2012-08-02 7:12 AM

    scoobysdad - 2012-08-01 6:25 PM Someone attempting to claim the right to use the word "marriage"-- which has thousands of years of both religious and non-religious tradition and meaning behind it-- to describe a non-traditional relationship... well, that does kind of impact me. 

    How? Besides being a different believe than your own how will gays being allowed to marry affect you personally? I'm honestly asking because I have yet to hear a valid answer to this question besides it conflicts with peoples beliefs.

    Because they are trying to redefine a word that carries a very specific meaning to it, along with a few thousand years of religious and nonreligious tradition and implications. If that word is redefined, we are not only redefining the most basic and essential relationship in our society but also retroactively changing the meaning of that word throughout our history. That impacts everyone.

    Again how? What will change and how? How will your marriage or your children’s marriage be affected or changed?



    See George Orwell. Words and their meanings are powerful tools (or weapons).

    There's a reason PETA wanted everyone to start calling fish "sea kittens".

    If the word "marriage" wasn't so important, why are gays fighting so hard for it? Why not simply agree to "civil union" and all the legal rights typically associated with marriage?


    2012-08-02 8:30 AM
    in reply to: #4342890

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    Subject: RE: CFA part Deux
    scoobysdad - 2012-08-02 8:07 AM
    Big Appa - 2012-08-02 7:12 AM

    scoobysdad - 2012-08-01 6:25 PM Someone attempting to claim the right to use the word "marriage"-- which has thousands of years of both religious and non-religious tradition and meaning behind it-- to describe a non-traditional relationship... well, that does kind of impact me. 

    How? Besides being a different believe than your own how will gays being allowed to marry affect you personally? I'm honestly asking because I have yet to hear a valid answer to this question besides it conflicts with peoples beliefs.

    Because they are trying to redefine a word that carries a very specific meaning to it, along with a few thousand years of religious and nonreligious tradition and implications. If that word is redefined, we are not only redefining the most basic and essential relationship in our society but also retroactively changing the meaning of that word throughout our history. That impacts everyone.

    You do realize that there is quite a bit of evidence to show that the Christian Church allowed and even performed same sex religious rites in the early Middle Ages and that Christianity doesn't have a monopoly on the concept of marriage.  Many other cultures and religions recognize same sex marriages and have done so for hundreds and thousands of years.

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