Experior and Slornow's Winter Mentor Group-CLOSED (Page 39)

Jason and Randy's points match my own observations.  I'll be interested to see Jason's new TT results - but I'm trying to figure out if the extra work I'd need to put in is worth :04/100.  If it was worth :10/100 then I'd be much more inclined to work harder in the pool.

Randy's comment is also true for me - swimming seems to take more out of me (guess I should swim more).  I feel I need to muscle through a workout, and am completely lost when people do a leisurley swim, since that doesn't exist for me.  If I'm not pushing myself a little, and am a bit lazy then I sink like a rock. 

Either way, I'm toying with the idea of putting in more time in the pool, cause I know I'll benefit, jsut trying to figure out when/how to do it.

Brian - just wondering what your HR zones look like, and also curious why you're choosing the interval workout you did.  Meaning, what are you hoping to get out of it?

Neil-thats exactly how I feel!  I had talked with a fellow BT'er that I keep up with and he had made a change and was swimming more comfortably.  He said he tried to look more down and actually back toward his waist/feet to keep his head down and create better balance.......worked for him.  I tried it yesterday and saw no difference other than it feeling a bit strange/different.  I think my body/head position is pretty decent...hoping to get some help this afternoon during my swim session. 

Randy

Treadmill run. A quick 3 miles. Was able to maintain an 8:52 pace, which I haven't seen in years. Same time last year I was hovering just under 10:00.  Kind of exciting. Will be doing a 44 mile relay race next month with my sisters and some of their friends, so working on running. Will have some cycling and swims still. Just taking a break this week. Well, I might make my good friend's cycling class tomorrow. Been telling her I would.

Neil,

It sounds like you could use some work on your technique.  I believe that with good technique, the difference between a "leisurely" swim and a full-out as hard as you can go swim (for distances of 1000 yards or so) should be about 10%.  Meaning, if you did leisurely at a 2:00 min pace per 100 yards, all out would be about 1:48.  I've had two changes in approach in triathlons since I started.  First was not going out like the sprinter I was 35 years ago.  After several heart rate spikes this was clearly a stupid way for me to start the triathlon.  Last year, I purposely tried to find a gear somewhere between the leisurely and all out which was about 5% slower.  What I'm trying (not so well, I might add) to work on this year is improving my leisurely pace and my approach has been to mix in more interval work on less rest than in previous years and also do a few more long distance time trials where I focus on maintaining pushing as hard as I can while maintaining good technique and glide. 

Dumb question - you mention about sinking... can you just float in the pool?  If not, can you float with a little bit of kicking to keep your legs on the surface?  Try doing that before adding in the pull and see if that helps your body position.

All that being said, it is clear that for me, my time is better spent on running and biking (and transitions) to improve my overall time.  The swim just isn't a big enough part of the race (portion of time) to get a good payoff, and on top of that, give me a month of training and I'll be in good enough shape to do the swim portion.  But I readily admit that with a swim background that makes a huge difference... but I can't even imagine ever stopping the run or bike completely and building back up to any level of competence within a month.  Is it because of the background or the length of the segment, I'm not sure, but that's been my experience.

Stu

Blanda - I'm so impressed with your tenacity and grit!  Xterra is tough - after running just the 10K last fall, and a day filled with crashes (pic HERE) I pretty much determined that it wasn't for me.  I'm too old to wreck like that!  Hope you are healing up quickly.

Had my first 3000yd Master's session in the pool today!  It's amazing what you can do when you get in the pool and WORK.  My group tends to chat at the wall quite a bit, but there were a lot of people missing today.  Had a lane by myself and just got to work.  Now I realize that 3500 is completely doable in a session.  I just have to pick up the pace and I'll be there.

One thing I've discovered is that I tend to be a lazy swimmer.  I can work a lot harder (read - swim faster!) than I think I can.  And if I want to come anywhere near the podium in June, I need to focus a lot more on my effort and start pushing.

I'm test driving bikes on Saturday - I think I've pretty much made up my mind on this Specialized Roubaix Elite roadie.  As sexy as the tri bikes are, I need something more versatile right now.  I'm going to right the one with Rival and a Ruby running Apex to see which one I like better.  I'm leaning heavily toward the Elite - better wheels too, so worth the upgrade in my mind.  Plus it's RED and we all know RED is faster.

Hope you all make it through your respective spring breaks relatively unscathed!

Di/Blanda....dueling bruises!  I feel like such a little wuss......can't decide if Xterra would be fun or something I should avoid at all costs.  Have done some mountain biking in the past and never had any bruises comparable to you ladies!

Stu's insight  on swimming is right on point.  During my session with the coach today he said that its easy to teach a child freestyle.  What's hard is "fixing" an adult's freestyle stroke.  Was he talking about me?  But, I think its just like what Stu said about growing up swimming.  Technique, rhythm, body position etc. are ingrained over hours in the pool.  If you learn the right way as a child then that is what returns when you swim as an adult.  Coach likes my stroke, in general, so we are working on some small tweaks.  Of course, it will likely take me months to correctly incorporate those tweaks into my stroke.

There is no magic dust to sprinkle over the pool that makes swimming easy/fast.  I do think that an extra session a week can result in better times but with a limited amount of time to train we all must look at what gets us to the finish line quickest.  An extra swim might gain us a minute or two while an extra run/ride might yield bigger gains.  Soooooo, for me its continued work in the pool to see if I can drop my 100's down a couple of seconds.  Sure alot of work but I'm determined to someday be a "comfortable" swimmer.     

Randy

Stu - thanks for the insight.  To come back to a couple of points.

• I find that for me to push harder (say :05/100 faster than my TT time) seems to take a lot more effort.  So in a race I just sort of settle in to a pace, cause I see no point in gassing myself.  I'm going to try and work a bit more on what you suggested in adding in more intervals with less rest and see if I that helps translate to better overall speed.
• Floating - I'm actually a pretty decent floater.  My issue is that when I swim I really need to focus on getting my hips and legs up - when I swim more leisurely this is the first thing to go for some reason.  I also drop my lead arm when I breathe, and have real trouble starting the catch before that arm drops.

As for the swim not being a big enough part of the race to focus on, I'll disagree with this point.  I've seen a lot of people point to this, but I simply don't agree with it.  For me to drop :10/100M in an Olympic distance swim would take a lot of work - for me to drop :10/km for an Olympic distance run would also take a lot of work.  If I can do it in the swim I'm actually further ahead than if I do it on the run.  Even HIM distance, 1900M swim or 21km run - either way I get almost equal benefit from dropping the time I listed above.

My issue is that I with the swim I haven't seen too many improvements in the past year.  Guess I need to consider working harder on the swim...

Sorry, somehow missed your zones when I looked at your log the other day - our zones are almost identical.  For the intervals I would just add a word of caution to not overdo them.  I fully believe that to run fast, you have to sometimes run fast - no way around that.  However, you also need to keep in mind that running much harder (and you were talking about running in Zone 5), can take a toll on the body a bit, and can open you up to some injuries.

Again, I'm all for intervals, but I think sometimes there is greater benefit in doing them at a  slightly less intense effort level.  Lots of gains to be made by running anywhere between Z2-4, without putting yourself into the red zone so much.

Neil-I think there are benefits of improving your swim regardless of race length. Maintaining a faster pace with a lower heart rate has you coming out of the water fresher.  I do think it matters what length races you do as to how much additional focus should be given to the swim.  The swim is such a small part time wise in a HIM or IM event and probably plays the biggest role in terms of percentage of total race time in an olympic distance event.

Swimming harder..agree that its important.  Just like Di pointed out in her workout yesterday.  Better quality workout when she was not spending as much time at the wall.  I don't swim masters or with anyone so its up to me to push my workouts.  I think Michael had mentioned something earlier in our group about getting in and doing sets without a bunch of warm up or drills.  I think that could be really beneficial...maybe 20x50 on 1:00 or 10x100 on 2:00.  Gives your body that feel of what it feels like to race and overcome that spike in HR without being "too" aggressive.

I'm with you.....the swim is a mystery that I can't seem to crack.

Randy   

Hey everyone.  Lots of crap at work lately, so very little time for anything else!

Brian:  I believe that your pace at HM shows that you should run a mile (if doing mile repeats) at around 8:30, or even a bit quicker.  Your workout results are more evidence for that.

Neil:  I think that you definitely could gain :10s/100 with higher volume.  I think you would likely find your ability to swim easy as well.  My swim coach (back when I had one) used to always get on my case about having 'only one speed'.  She made me swim lots and lots of descending sets and I think that helped.  As Stu suggested, working on body position is also a critical factor.  I'm like you -- I sink.  I can literally sit on the bottom of the pool.  (My kids think it is hilarious.)  Swimming with a band around my ankles (or just crossing my legs to precent kicking) has helped (no pull buoy!), but I have more progress to make.  If you haven't swum like that before, ou will HATE it hen you firs try, and it will be very very frustrating -- at least, it was for me.

Di -- nice swim!  And very exciting about the bike.  The Roubaix is a very pretty bike, IMO. Post pics when you have it!

Good example of why I have trouble going faster - and probably why I need to push myself more.  Tuesday, did 10x100 as main set on 2:00, and was coming into the wall at around 1:38, and managed to speed up the last three and get the final one it at 1:34.  Today, did 10x50 on :55 and came into the wall around :45.

Felt much more out of breathe and that my stroke was sloppy today, and I just wanted the 50's to end.  The pace is really not that different, but that extra push just takes so much more out of me, and it feels like such a struggle.  I guess this means I need to keep pushing these harder sets...which I love.

Niel...we're very similar in speed, but when I do 10x100, I do them @ 1:50.  If I'm doing 5x100, I do them @ 1:45.  22 seconds is way too much rest, and probably why you were able to go hard the last 2.  As for your 10x50's, @55 seconds is about right for me too (I would prefer to go on 52 seconds because I normally come in around 42, but it's just too hard to keep track of)...and yes, you do feel sloppy at the end, but that's okay IMO.  You're working on building your fitness with these intervals.  Drills are for working on form...then there are other sets where you combine both.  But at the end of a 10x set...you should feel like your arms are going to fall off.

Weighed in at 157.8 after my run this morning, which is what I raced at most of 2011. At my heaviest, after the holidays, I was about 172…so I got a backpack, and filled it up with stuff until it weighed about 14 pounds. I put it on my back at it was pretty amazing that I was running and biking with that much additional weight on me. 

Just did 45 min with my new aero clip-ons.  Was nice and comfy.  I stayed in low gear so I could get a good feel for them without worrying about effort.  I don't know if this is normal or my fitness level is back but I ended up having a high cadence (~100rpm) throught the workout without extra effort.  Is it normal to maintain higher cadence in aero positon without extra effort, or maybe I should say less effort (probably reason why I had higher cadence).  Next workout I'll try higher gear to see how that feels.

I'll catch up on rest of posts later.

Jason -- congrats on the weight loss!   That's very nice.

Neil -- I agree with Jason; start shortening your rest interval.  Another great thing to do that can really force one to work is to do descending sets.  One really nice set is to do 16x50 moderate with every 4th very hard; 12x50 every 3rd very hard; 8x40 every other very hard; 4x50 all HARD.  The early sprint 50s fix your 'hard pace' -- try to match that pace on all of the subsequent hard 50s.  Do these on an interval that will give you 5-10s of rest on the moderate 50s and a bit more on the hard 50s.  On the last 4x50 try to go just a touch faster.  This workout lulls you into  a sense of security then kicks you in the rear!

There's an interesting discussion on the main forum about crank length right now.  I've been toying with the idea of shorter cranks because I think I can and should be slightly more aggressively positioned on my bike, but there's no way I can raise my seat or lower my bars.  I've also been curious for a while about other possible benefits, especially for someone (like me) who isn't tall (5'7").

Unlike the OP of that thread, though, I can't do it cheaply on my bike, so I'm left pondering...

Michael...what size crank arms do you have now?  I'm also considering this down the road.  I have 172.5 mm arms which are likely to long for me (at 5'6"). 

Awesome, Jason, and thank you for sharing this. It gives me hope about how much better it will feel and how my pace will improve with 15 lbs less to haul around. I'm getting there! Dropped 6ish pounds so far and it's showing in my recent run times.

Took a break yesterday to hang out with the kids getting belated birthday presents and enjoying a relaxed dinner. Today going to go for 5 miles on the treadmill at lunch unless it's overcast. I'll take it outside if there's some cloud coverage.

Here's a short video of the Xterra race last weekend. Not completed yet, but great aerial shots from one of those little remote control camera choppers!

Have a great evening guys!

170mm.  I would have ordered 165mm but couldn't get them when I got the bike.  If I take the plunge, I'll probably go for something like 160 or 155.  Before I decide, I'll take some more careful measurements.  But as I say, it will run into some money, and I don't have that right now...

Had a good hard bike workout this evening...4 min intervals at 95/100/105%FTP.  Amazing how long 4 minutes is when you are really pushing it.

I like descending sets in the swim.  12x100 descending 1-4.  Gives you a good feel for pace/effort and keeps things interesting.  What's tough is coming into the 3rd set on the first interval going faster than planned and then having to suck it up for the next 3 intervals.

Have not given much thought to crank length.  Will have to check out the discussion.

Randy