Michael Sams (Page 4)

New Kansas Law

New Kansas Law

Thinking that being gay is a choice, or that it's a "life choice" is also incorrect.  

For the sake of this discussion, I will assume you are not gay and I mean no offense by my assumption as to your sexuality, or by what I say next...  

When did you choose to have a hetero lifestyle?  When did you choose to be straight?  It isn't a choice - every person's sexuality is part of their genetic make-up, just as it's part of the genetic make-up for each and every person born with various skin pigments, eye colour, height, etc. To say a person isn't allowed into x,y,z place of business because of their skin colour, is discriminatory - just as it should be for their sexuality.   

I've spent a lot of time reflecting on this very topic because I deal with a lot of men who have various sexual "behavior" issues.  I volunteer as a sexual addiction counselor and most of the men I work with are struggling with compulsion and behavioral issues that happen with gay and straight men so I see it from both sides of the spectrum.  Of course there's the old nature vs. nurture argument that I'm not 100% settled on when it comes to being gay, but I have come to the absolute conclusion that NOBODY chooses their sexual attraction, it's just the way they are.  Yes you can choose to not act on your attractions, but it doesn't change the attraction itself.

I can say there are legitimate arguments for genetics and there are legitimate arguments for environmental exposures.  I tend to think it's more of a complex combination of both personally.

I mostly lean towards the "combination" thing because we are all (straight/gay) influenced by our environment as far as what features characteristics we like in those we're attracted to.  For example, I like blondes with small athletic bewbs.  Big bewbs do nothing for me at all and even kind of turn me off.  I most certainly wasn't born with that and I know where in my past the influence came from for this attraction.  However, me being attracted to women in general was way before that (genetic or environment) and I don't know the answer to where that came from.
I can get a little controversial at times on this topic as a whole, but I always defend people who are gay as not making a choice to be gay.  Even if it is 100% nurture and not nature at all (hypothetically speaking) the influences would happen at such a young age that it still wouldn't be a choice.

The topic of sexual attraction does genuinely interest me in the context of sexual addiction because I try to help men identify where their "bad" sexual attraction behaviors originated from so they can fix them.
btw, don't take this as me saying gay is a "sexual addiction" or needs to be "fixed" because it's not.  I'm just giving context to my interest in this topic.

Tony - Thank you so much for sharing, I love the story about your son!   

I will agree that the attraction to features or characteristics in other can be influenced - and can change over time.  However, I also believe that at it's very base level - an attraction to or a preference for one sex or the other is genetic.  Growing up, I liked boys and I knew I liked boys from an elementary school age.  Just like a friend of mine growing up who came out in high school knew growing up that HE liked boys too.  I guess my problem (and I'm not saying you are wrong, I'm just talking out loud here... or writing out loud, I guess) with the nurture/environmental influence aspect of that argument is how that works with children of those people who are very against anyone who is homosexual (for whatever reason).  That child would certainly not be influenced in a positive way to be anything but heterosexual, and yet without any nurturing in that direction, they are still homosexual.  

Huh, that was a really round-about way of saying that I think we're agreeing in that it's not a choice.    

I wish there were more studies on the topic but I think it's become such a hot button issue that findings either way would be ripped apart by the opposing side and not much progress would be made.  Hypothetically speaking if it were proven somehow to be 100% nurture, what would that change?  OK, your mom/dad "made" you gay, what now.  OK, guess you better go get a girlfriend or go to counseling?  lol

I wish there were more studies on the topic but I think it's become such a hot button issue that findings either way would be ripped apart by the opposing side and not much progress would be made.  Hypothetically speaking if it were proven somehow to be 100% nurture, what would that change?  OK, your mom/dad "made" you gay, what now.  OK, guess you better go get a girlfriend or go to counseling?  lol

What if *gasp* your mom and dad "made" you hetero?  I know you lol'd that last sentence, but that is exactly what some people think, that you can be "cured".  

I think we also have to be careful on the opposite side of this spectrum as well to say that there is nothing anyone can do.  Similar to I don't feel anyone chooses to be gay, I feel there are people who are gay who for whatever reason make a conscious choice to not be gay and have successfully changed.  I have two good friends that fall into this camp.  I don't like the word "cured" because that indicates there was something wrong with them in the first place though. 
Gender identity and sexual attraction are very complex issues with a ton of influences.  There are some examples of individuals who are sexually abused by same sex individuals as teens who struggle with sexual identity issues.  It's not that they're gay and need to be "cured" but they have some issues that therapy can genuinely help them with to live a better more fulfilling life (gay or straight).

Here's what the American Psychiatric Association (APA) says about "what causes sexual orientation":
There is no consensus among scientists about the exact reasons that an individual develops a heterosexual, bisexual, gay, or lesbian orientation. Although much research has examined the possible genetic, hormonal, developmental, social, and cultural influences on sexual orientation, no findings have emerged that permit scientists to conclude that sexual orientation is determined by any particular factor or factors. Many think that nature and nurture both play complex roles; most people experience little or no sense of choice about their sexual orientation.

(I agree completely with the bolded section)

The APA has established guidelines for sexual orientation therapy for individuals that are struggling with their identity and some of which chose to try and change for whatever reason.  This isn't whacked out "conversion therapy" stuff, it's legitimate therapy that some people get the results they're looking for.
This is obviously a very controversial area for the APA so we don't hear a lot about it.
http://www.apa.org/pi/lgbt/resources/therapeutic-response.pdf

Now don't read me wrong and thing I'm some "conversion nut" because that couldn't be further from the truth.  It's just that this is a very complex issue where broad brushes don't work very well.

I'm probably out in the weeds far enough, because ultimately the topic of this thread is to not condemn people who are different and I think we're all in agreement there. 

I think we also have to be careful on the opposite side of this spectrum as well to say that there is nothing anyone can do.  Similar to I don't feel anyone chooses to be gay, I feel there are people who are gay who for whatever reason make a conscious choice to not be gay and have successfully changed.  I have two good friends that fall into this camp.  I don't like the word "cured" because that indicates there was something wrong with them in the first place though. 
Gender identity and sexual attraction are very complex issues with a ton of influences.  There are some examples of individuals who are sexually abused by same sex individuals as teens who struggle with sexual identity issues.  It's not that they're gay and need to be "cured" but they have some issues that therapy can genuinely help them with to live a better more fulfilling life (gay or straight).

Here's what the American Psychiatric Association (APA) says about "what causes sexual orientation":
There is no consensus among scientists about the exact reasons that an individual develops a heterosexual, bisexual, gay, or lesbian orientation. Although much research has examined the possible genetic, hormonal, developmental, social, and cultural influences on sexual orientation, no findings have emerged that permit scientists to conclude that sexual orientation is determined by any particular factor or factors. Many think that nature and nurture both play complex roles; most people experience little or no sense of choice about their sexual orientation.

(I agree completely with the bolded section)

The APA has established guidelines for sexual orientation therapy for individuals that are struggling with their identity and some of which chose to try and change for whatever reason.  This isn't whacked out "conversion therapy" stuff, it's legitimate therapy that some people get the results they're looking for.
This is obviously a very controversial area for the APA so we don't hear a lot about it.
http://www.apa.org/pi/lgbt/resources/therapeutic-response.pdf

Now don't read me wrong and thing I'm some "conversion nut" because that couldn't be further from the truth.  It's just that this is a very complex issue where broad brushes don't work very well.

I'm probably out in the weeds far enough, because ultimately the topic of this thread is to not condemn people who are different and I think we're all in agreement there. 

I think we also have to be careful on the opposite side of this spectrum as well to say that there is nothing anyone can do.  Similar to I don't feel anyone chooses to be gay, I feel there are people who are gay who for whatever reason make a conscious choice to not be gay and have successfully changed.  I have two good friends that fall into this camp.  I don't like the word "cured" because that indicates there was something wrong with them in the first place though. 
Gender identity and sexual attraction are very complex issues with a ton of influences.  There are some examples of individuals who are sexually abused by same sex individuals as teens who struggle with sexual identity issues.  It's not that they're gay and need to be "cured" but they have some issues that therapy can genuinely help them with to live a better more fulfilling life (gay or straight).

Here's what the American Psychiatric Association (APA) says about "what causes sexual orientation":
There is no consensus among scientists about the exact reasons that an individual develops a heterosexual, bisexual, gay, or lesbian orientation. Although much research has examined the possible genetic, hormonal, developmental, social, and cultural influences on sexual orientation, no findings have emerged that permit scientists to conclude that sexual orientation is determined by any particular factor or factors. Many think that nature and nurture both play complex roles; most people experience little or no sense of choice about their sexual orientation.

(I agree completely with the bolded section)

The APA has established guidelines for sexual orientation therapy for individuals that are struggling with their identity and some of which chose to try and change for whatever reason.  This isn't whacked out "conversion therapy" stuff, it's legitimate therapy that some people get the results they're looking for.
This is obviously a very controversial area for the APA so we don't hear a lot about it.
http://www.apa.org/pi/lgbt/resources/therapeutic-response.pdf

Now don't read me wrong and thing I'm some "conversion nut" because that couldn't be further from the truth.  It's just that this is a very complex issue where broad brushes don't work very well.

I'm probably out in the weeds far enough, because ultimately the topic of this thread is to not condemn people who are different and I think we're all in agreement there. 

I have a somewhat unique perspective on this in that I get to know a lot of people who struggle with sexual issues of all sorts and journey with them throughout their history to see how they got where they are.  I can tell you that being sexually abused from anyone has a life long impact on the victim (same sex or otherwise).  I was simply mentioning that you can't lump everyone together on such a complex issue because every single one of us is different.  Our genes and our life experiences are all different and collectively make us who we are.  It's not as simple as all gay people are "born that way" or "everyone had bad parents" because neither have been proven by anybody and I believe both are untrue.

As you highlighted, most (but not all) people experience little or no sense of choice.  So, I was merely suggesting to not lump everyone together. 

I don't think you're trying to start a fight, and I appreciate the dialog.  Most people tend to shy away from these topics because there's no easy answer and I try to simply give another perspective that doesn't get brought up much.

I hope I don't come across as too much a whack job.  :-D

Nope, not a whack job.    But I have a somewhat unique perspective on this as well in that I am gay and a sexual abuse survivor.  I am very well aware of the impact it has.  However, I don't feel as though it is a lifelong issue.  I dealt with it and moved on.  Now, did the abuse help shape who I am?  Absolutely.  Did it affect my sexuality?  Possibly.  You are right, we will never know.  I 'went the other way' in that I tried 'being' straight for many years--boyfriends, even a husband (just for the record, HE ended the relationship, before I ever came out).  It wasn't until I came out that I truly felt like I was me.  

I agree, that we should not lump everyone together.  But to say that someone who identified as gay can get therapy and change is untrue, IMO.  Confused about their sexuality, get therapy and get it figured out, absolutely.  But do you think that I was heterosexual and then my therapy changed me to gay?

You need a new counselor if they turned you gay.  just kidding and no I don't think your therapy changed you to gay.  That would be a whole new can of worms right there.  ;-)

I think you described in your last paragraph how difficult it is because there are people who are the way they are and nobody is going to change them and nor should they try.  Then there are people who are confused about their sexuality that can benefit from counseling.  On the confusion front there could be people who identify as straight and are confused because they're really gay and people could identify or think they're gay, but really be straight.

I don't think I buy that.

maybe "identify" isn't the right word, but lets take an example.  Somebody who has lived their whole life as a straight person, dating girls, even marrying a woman, but things were just never right.  If they "identify" with that lifestyle of being straight but the truth is they're actually gay and living a lie wouldn't it be appropriate for them to have a venue they could go to in order to explore their true sexual identity?

I think the area where this is more applicable is with people who identify as bisexual but I'm not an expert by any means.

Admittedly, we have reached a part of this discussion that I couldn't even begin to comment on because I don't have a clue.  I'm good with whatever ya'll decide.