Swimming: Breath control... I don't get it (Page 4)

Whoa. Wait. Why?

That is categorically wrong.  Watch this weekend's Missouri Grand Prix for proof.

You preach SPL as some magic pill and it simply is not.  To a newer swimmer probably any single improvement is going to drop 10 seconds.  It is that next 10 and the next 10 that is where the sweet spot lies.  I have been to a zillion clinics over the years and never have heard any coach say there is magic in anything, except more pool time.

No, it's not, you are wrong, watch the Grand Prix this weekend as proof.  Not sport can be reduced to math, ask Bill Bellichick.  Did you watch the Cullen Jones versus Josh Schneider 50 race for the National Team?

Whoa. Wait. Why?

I do not hold any one thing as gospel. Everything has context and everything has a balance of give and take....  I know my speed did not come from taking fewer strokes, but I from paying attention to the strokes I took. And a beginner is where I'm at. I have no doubt I have plenty of things I can work on.

And it isn't just her.. I have listened to the SPL debate before... there is value... I just don't take it as the end all be all and I don't think that is what Bear is preaching. If spl can get me to a solid stroke and then I increase rate and keep the same power well obviously it would be faster. And I have listened to the open water guys talk about how important faster turn over is and I can understand that point too.... but I have to start somewhere.

I try to only breathe between the flags.  It's not a big deal coming off the wall but can get tiresome going into the walls.  

I think the bolded part is important.  Keep your form at speed and a lower SPL may result from that.  That's one thing that always irks me when I read about keeping your SPL low - you can't just magically do that, you have to change or maintain something in your stroke to do that.  Now counting strokes may be a bit of the information that tells you what may or may not work but lowering your SPL is a result, not a cause.

OMG, seriously stop!  There is no black and white in any sport, it is all gray.  Go to the finals of any meet, any age group, and pool in the world.  8 lanes will have different stroke rate, different SPL, different styles.  Take a look at the two greatest swimmers there ever were (Phelps and Evans).  One high insane high turnover, one a loper.  There is no algebraic formula, no one single thing.

This is why I am thankful for certified SWIM coaches so that I don't get told that swimming is a mathematical equation that yields instant results.  I've never heard a single swim coach tell a single swimmer it is just a math equation.  

What level of certification and how many pro/elite/OT swimmers do you train and from what organization?  How many kids have you put in Jr. Nationals/Sr. Nationals/National Team/Pan Pacs/OTs?  No one, not a single coach who coaches people at that level, says it is just math, not Bowman, not Marsh, not Reese, none of them. I'd hardly call them unenlightened. 

So, your certification is going to a clinic where Hyman spoke?  She's awesome for sure.  But, that doesn't make you enlightened.

Just a quick response, did not have time to read all, but will thoroughly tonight and give a lengthy thought.

BHC above, page 3 or 4, hits it spot on air exchange in swimming, that is the foundation of it. I will rewrite the breathing sequence for the turns. Had it in another thread, but will clean it up and make it here.

This is still on topic and I want to know!

Thanks.

Not a swimmer and obviously have no swimming knowledge not obtained either here or on youtube but I get the equation thing.

A length is 25 yards correct?  Irrefutable if your in a 25 yard pool and we will assume we are.

If you have a stroke count of 15 than each stroke must cover exactly 5 feet.  Also irrefutable correct?

If you maintain 15 SPL and your tempo is say 2 seconds per stroke your speed will be 2.5FPS or 30 seconds/50yds.  Again irrefutable correct?

So if the above is true than I believe AdventureBears point is that if you hold your stroke rate constant at 15 SPL and increase your tempo to say 1.8 seconds per stroke you will be faster.  Also if you hold your tempo constant at 2 seconds per stroke and decrease your SPL you will also be faster.

Its simple math and true.  Where it gets more complicated is how does one train to achieve the best combination of SPL and tempo to get the maximum speed for their current fitness level.

Obviously if you go crazy with one factor and not the other you could get slower.  Decreasing your SPL to 12 from 15 by slowing your tempo from 2 seconds per stroke to 4 will make you much slower.  Also increasing your tempo to 1.5 seconds per stroke while doubling your SPL will also make you slower.

Does all that make sense or am I too big a fan of numbers?

H2O Killer and others,

Please remember this is BT and not ST.  If you want to get into a "pi$$ing"  match, go over there.  Can we keep the discussion about improvement and away from personal attacks?

Thanks.