Sept 15-Oct 15 "Daniel's Running Formula" Book Club (Page 4)

Alright, back to you for a moment. That is one part that makes you so awesome (you know in addition to the creepiness) I'm reading "How to Win Friends and Influence People" and you represent so many of the fundamentals he talks about. I don't know if you know you are doing it or not, but you are amazing at selflessly engaging people. And finding a way to include everyone. You are freekin' awesome.

It makes me almost  ignore your reckless streaking 

Oh, Salty, that is very, very kind and it comes at a good time.  Very big hugs to you my special friend. 

I love these challenges because they allow us all to get to know each other a little better, and that's the good stuff.  If I become a better runner (have a stronger core, hold longer handstands, can do more push-ups, get PURPOSE to my running) too, well, that's a bonus :)

I've been through the first chapters and am getting into structuring a training block.  24 week training plan and how to structure the weeks within the four phases.  So I am seeing a pretty logical progression of thought.  It might be helpful for someone who has been through the whole thing and has a pretty good working knowledge to summarize the major parts of the book.  Could be like:

1) Physiological adaptions and types of workouts

2) Measuring current fitness (VDOT) and establishing pace/durations of workouts

3) Training plan and developing your phases and the underlying weekly workout schedule

4) Distance specific variations to training plan

I think it would be helpful, especially for us that are kind of new to this, to follow some progression of discussion and learning so there is plenty of  foundational explanation.  Some of the stuff that is written is pretty intuitive but some gets quite technical.  I'm throwing out the above sequence and blocks but am kind of shooting from the hip.

Don't worry, I will always see you as a creeper. 

I still need the book to come in and will probably be behind in actually reading it with stuff coming up the next week. Although it took maybe 2 days for me to read Training and Racing With a Power Meter. I'm mostly curious to see what comes up here. New thoughts and viewpoints to consider. Very interested in a Challenge that does more than help with motivation and/or consistency. Those are great for many, but it's also good to develop a better understanding of how to work to make better use of the time spent.

OK, so a couple of people have mentioned feeling behind, and I know of a couple of others who were waiting on their books.  I know people's schedules are demanding, and, really, there's no reason we can't take as much time as we need with this book.  I only set the month parameter as a guideline, but I'd love it if the group continued to discuss things JD and running related indefinitely.

Like Steve, I have found the first few chapters really resonate, and I will want to come back to them and reread them after trying some things out.  If at any point we are discussing things that are beyond where you are in the book, just bring it back to your point of question. I have found that I often learn the most by walking through the discovery steps with someone else. 

One question or point of discussion I'd like to have with the group is this idea of running economy.

I think one of the things I love about fast running, especially sprinting, is that the motion feels very natural to me.  As I slow down my pace it begins to feel cumbersome, and in zone 2 it can sometimes feel really pretty meh.  JD has said that with some of his slower runners he doesn't have them use their easy pace, but rather their "M" pace because their form suffers too much with "easy" running and can lead to injury (details on pg 102--I skipped ahead to this section).

Can anyone speak to this?  How did you adjust for this?

I don't think my form is so bad that I am going  to injure myself, but I do feel a huge discrepancy between my form at 9:30mpm (LSD or "easy") pace and 8:15(marathon) mpm and again between 8:15 and 7:30s or 6:50s...

I guess one of the things I being to balk at mentally when I think about doing 85% + of my mileage at my easy pace is that I'm not going to be running efficiently and my body will revert to that.  Why doesn't that happen?

Dale!

Welcome to the party--so glad you're in:)  I feel grateful to have your expertise in the discussion.  Sorry to hear about the oh-so-close brick at Savageman.  That's a little heartbreaking.  I feel for ya brotha.

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Ditto Ben.  Didn't know you were going to join us, but saaahweet! BTW, as a podmate, I get special privileges with you;)

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To the others who have posted your roll calls, a big welcome to all of you. If you're lurking--stop that!  Introduce yourself and get involved.  You can learn a lot by lurking, but you will learn more if you put yourself out there.  No question is dumb--or if it is, I've asked a dumber one. I assure you.

I wonder if more passages can be found by typing a part of it into google. Think I found some before that way, like the one I linked earlier.

No touching

I'm the same way.  If I run below a certain pace I feel like the deterioration in my natural stride generates more pounding.  On my last long run I felt worse halfway through than at a minute/mile faster pace.  I experimented a bit with my form but nothing really felt natural or sustainable.  When I did my last IM, it was easier and more comfortable to take walk breaks then it was to slow my run pace down.

I usually do my long runs (up to 18 so far) at M pace or slightly faster.  I think they end up being something more than an easy run though as I would not have relished the prospect of going another 8 miles.  It is a toughy for me because I know I lack a bit of endurance.  I started taking iron as I have been anemic and was hoping that had something to do with things going south late in the long runs.

I know it is possible to train for greater economy on the faster side of the spectrum but learning economy on the other end has eluded me.

Hi everyone, I just wanted to stick my nose in and say I will probably keep an eye on this thread - mostly in lurk mode.    I've read some but not all of Daniel's book, all of the Triathlete's Guide to training with power and I'd like to read the swim speed secrets book.

My short story: I was a swimmer as a kid, decided to tri around age 33 (now 38), fought with my knees for well over a year before I could run without pain.  Running was always my weakness in races.  Last year after doing IMMT I hired a coach and it has totally changed my training.  He uses Daniels VDOT tables for training paces and "I-pace" is now a curse word for me.    The run leg of races has improved significantly for me now including setting a 10K run PR (open or tri) at the end of an Olympic tri in August!

PR times:  (a bit old - I'm pretty sure I could beat all of these if I went out and raced)
5K - 20:51 
10K - 45:10 
HM - 1:38:10 
Marathon - never done one other than the run of IMMT, no desire to ever do one! 

Read some interesting stuff tonight that got me thinking about my next insertion of quality work. Repeats.  Contrary to what I would have thought, JD seems to recommend this type of quality work in earlier phases of training.  As I understand it, learning good form by running shorter faster repeats should be done before more taxing Interval and Threshold work, assuming one has adequate base built to progress there.  So what would a typical R workout look like in terms of warmup, main set, and cool down?

"R Pace. Repetition (R) velocity is faster than I pace, at the very least, but, unlike I and T, is not based on V02max. Rather, R pace is to a great extent, based the race for which you are training; it is more designed for good mechanics at a pretty firm pace."

While my short term goals are for a marathon I am tailoring my quality work at faster paces, more on the lines of 5k.  I do race quite a few 5k's through the year but since I never have trained at this pace, my form does feel a little wobbly at those paces.  I can see where getting more comfortable mechanically at these paces would be of benefit. 

My coach had me doing R Pace workouts before ever touching I pace and before getting heavily into T pace.

A typical R pace workout for me was something like

WU: 2 miles easy
6-8x200 at R pace with 45 seconds recovery between
Cooldown for 1-2 miles easy

WU: 2 miles easy
3x200 at R pace with 45 seconds recovery
1x400 at R pace with 60 seconds recovery
3x200 at R pace with 45 seconds recovery
Cooldown for 1-2 miles easy

I quickly went through my logs for the last year and every R pace workout was pretty much one of those or a close variation.  The first one was the most common and all I did for the first while and once I had done it a bunch then the second one was used here and there.

Mary, you've just made my day. Thank you.

Could I make a request that when we refer to the book we use page numbers when at all possible? 

As someone who was a runner before a cyclist or a swimmer, I am always amazed at people who first cover 26.2 miles AFTER 2.4 miles of swimming and 112 of biking for the first time.  It's hard for me to wrap my brain around that :)

I decided at the end of my tri season that I was going to train for a marathon again to get my running fitness back to where it was prekids, but I've since read a number of things to suggest that might not be the best route.  I still am going to do the marathon, because I want to do that for different reasons, but it never would have occurred to me that to have a better run at the end of my HIM, I should really focus on my 5K http://forum.slowtwitch.com/forum/Slowtwitch_Forums_C1/Triathlon_Forum_F1/Moving_up_in_AG..._need_more_speed!_P4759004/

I don't post on ST, but I do read threads over there and thought that one might be relevant to our discussion.

For a background,

I grew up more in fast acting team sports. Soccer and basketball mostly, but could play anything. Did ride the bike around a bit, but it was more ride hard a few minutes, wait for everyone to catch up, do it again (I'm the oldest). In Jr High School ran a little track and cross country. Mostly to help with conditioning for the other sports. Relatively terrible on the track, couldn't find the motivation for that extra gear like out on the fields. Cross country was either the 5th runner or an extra to push other teams back a little more when we had enough people (small school). Endurance was kind of meh, not overly interesting as I wanted to go as fast as possible.

Picked up more weight lifting in college and finally added some size, getting all the way up to about 225. A little bit after graduating, continually lifting a pile of iron became less interesting. I could pick up and move anything around the house I could get a grip on, so what else was I going to do with it? Remembered wanting to get a new mountain bike after college, so did that and began a shift back over towards these activities. I still had the explosive speed from the team sports, so it was more a change in shape as opposed to getting in shape. Did some running here and there, nothing serious. Really needed a break from the win or go home attitude of the team sports, so just went out to enjoy it. Not really much of an idea of what I was doing, so definitely was going much too hard.

Got into triathlon after a friend of remarkably similar size & ability did and liked it. Swimming actually wasn't so bad. Finally started organizing things some and it all took off. I've never really focused on a running race. Nothing more than going easy a few days before. Generally push well in them, but not quite all in. Mainly out there because it's fun. I don't want to get caught up in racing too much and lose that feeling. Down to around 180 now (for a little while, really) and it feels more natural, don't think I'm supposed to be a big guy. At least outside of the endurance world. Have been lighter at times, but it takes a lot of effort to do so.

Interested in reading this section now. I've certainly felt a difference in my running in the 7:30-8:00 range. For some reason, my form does seem to change in this pace range. Once I was strong enough to regularly put in some mileage in the mid to low 7's things seemed to take a good jump forward. When doing easier running at 8 or above I try, but still feel my form slipping back a bit later in the run. Estimated marathon pace would be a bit much all the time, but wonder if more often would be ok. Although I could take the obvious answer to this and do lots of running until even the easiest ones are done at ~7:30.

I pulled the quote from a JD article that I found online but the book refers to it on page 36.