Mad Manatee Mentors 2013: CLOSED (exc/ Pop Tart bribes) (Page 408)

Oh! I know what this is! 

And thanks for sharing?

I do a longer set every other time or so--usually is in the 600-800 range--and I stop these when I feel things go to chit. >80% of my stuff is short and hard for now.

Ha! Had to share

(IMG9524102700593536.jpg)

Bleeeotch!

"Giddy-up" is what I called it when one of the arms has a longer recovery than the other, generally the side you're breathing on with a breath every two. 

Originally posted by switch

Originally posted by Muskrat37

Originally posted by switch

OK, swimming peeps.  A few of questions:

At what point should you stop your workout because your form/speed is suffering to much?  Is there a definitive way to make this call? 

Similar question, I have been hitting around 3000yds for the last week, but my arms are pretty dead at the end of that.  I could push through and increase my ydg, but I would have to swim really slowly to do it.  How do you increase yardage?  Do you just accept that your workouts/technique is going to suffer a bit to get to 3500 yds or 4000yds?  What is a reasonable step up?

I have been breathing every two, as that's really what I need to do in races to feel like I'm getting enough.  I'm pretty comfortable on both sides, but I've noticed I end up with a bit of a giddy-up in my stroke when I do that instead of it being more balanced on both sides.  Is that OK, or should I be working to fix that?

 

Oh no - I'm feeling myself getting sucked back in to the Pod Life....  I don't have time to keep up with all you chatty Cathy's.

Any who... I will answer some of your questions, but before I attempt to answer the other questions I have a few of my own... how many days a week are you swimming?  What types of workouts are you doing now?  How much of your workout is devoted to drills?  What level of swimmer are you (beginner, intermediate, advanced)? How is your form now (catch and pull, kick etc)?

Don't worry about breathing every 3... (some will disagree with me on this).  I personally only breath on my left.  I breath every 4 (for the most part).  If I need an extra breath, I will add in an extra one on the 2nd stroke.  So my breathing pattern will be something like 4,4,4,2 - 4,4,2 - 4,4,4,2 and so on.  

I would work on building up your lung capacity.  Whether that means you breath every 4 or every 3 - that is up to you.  Do what is comfortable for you.  Breathing slows you down, and for most people, your stroke will break down while taking a breath.  This means that if you breath every 2, you will work harder to travel 25 yards than if you breath every 4.  Does that make sense?  

How to work on your lung capacity?  Again - maybe controversial, but I would do some sprints.  Get the heart rate up.  When you do sprints... try to go the length of the pool taking as few breaths as possible.  Add a set up 6 X 25 with a 10 second rest to the end of your workout, but before your cool down.  Try to get to 1 or zero breaths per 25.  When you can do 6 x 25 with only 1 breath or less - bump it up to 8, then 10 and so on.  This will also help you build endurance for long swims.  Depending on your swimming level - this should also help you drop time on your long swim.  

Hope this helps...

Haha--I don't know if I should answer your questions; I don't want to draw you into the Pod...

I've just restarted a swim focus.  My plan is to swim at least 5 days a week, but I haven't been swimming regularly since last spring.  There were a few weeks this summer I was in twice, but it was more often one or none.

I'm OK.  My oly swims I was 1:38-1:40/100yds and my HIM I was 1:48/100yds.  Shockingly, that's enough to put me MOP or higher in all of my races.  I would say I'm not a beginner, but I'm not an intermediate either.  Somewhere in the middle.

Catch is getting better, body position could use some work, and my kick is pretty non-existent unless I'm doing short stuff in the pool. I do a really light flutter in races until the last 150 yds or so, and then I'll do a decent 6 beat.

I have never done a set to work on lung capacity.  Never ever.  I will work in the 6 x 25 at the end of my sets. I can swim underwater the length of the pool, but I don't ever do repeats of that 

Maybe subconsciously, I want to be sucked.............(long pause for effect)..................................... back in.

5 days is a lot... 4 will do (if you want to use that extra day to run or something)... 

Here's my advice:

Vary up your swimming days, types of workouts, and yardage.  Similar to running - have a "LONG" swim day.  With swimming - it can be every other week.  When I say long swim day - I mean it's the day that you swim your long straight set.  Some people (swim coaches) don't agree with this, but I always like to do it - if anything, just as a way to gauge my progress, and for the mental boost I get when I swim a straight 2,500 - 3,000 yards.  

The rest of your days should look like this (in general)

• warm up - 15 - 20% of your TOTAL yardage for the day.
• drills - a couple hundred yards... one week focus on balance - the next week, catch and pull - the next week your kick...then repeat the series
• Main set - intervals, intervals, intervals.  Did I say intervals?  To figure out your interval times, swim 50 yards @ 80%..note your time.  Swim 100 yards @ 80 % note your time...do the same for 200 yards.  Do these on different days, at the beginning of the workout (after the warm up).  Add no more than 15 seconds to that time... THIS IS YOUR INTERVAL.  Now - if your main set is 1,000 yards.. you can break it down however you want.. 5 x 200 on your interval time... 10 x 100 on your interval time etc.  If you want... you can mix that up.  You could do 3 x 200 on your interval..then 8 x 50 on your interval.
• 6 x 25's (maybe 4 to start) - sprint... all out... This includes a very rapid kick.  
• cool down. - can be straight, or break it up.  In general - a good cool down is 300 yards or so... gradually getting slower until you are just cruising along for your last lap... sometimes I even swim this one on my back.. float along.. I literally get nice and relaxed before getting out of the pool.  

Follow this for 3-4 months - and your lung capacity will increase (might be a bad term to describe what I mean), and your times should drop.  You should be able to comfortably breath about every 4th stroke (or at least every 3) at what would be YOUR race pace for Oly and above. 

Good luck, and I hope this makes sense.  

P.S.  If you are feeling really brave - borrow someones Go Pro and video tape your swimming (from above the water, and below)... I'll give you some feedback on your swim stroke.  

Here's an example of a bit of a giddy-up.  I've never seen mine, but I can assure you it's not as pretty or anywhere close to this fast (it ain't even the same faching universe), but since Bo has posted this a couple of times, I don't think he'll mind me sharing it with you:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UREFVv7yHzU&feature=youtube_gdata_player

Is this a new way to gauge whether or not one is working out enough?  Apparently I am not working out hard enough, or often enough... 

So, using your interval set up, if I swam 100yds at 80% effort at 1:40, I would add 15 seconds to that?  That would be my repeat send off time?  I would still do my intervals close to all out though, yes?

My tri team just got a GoPro, so I will be shooting some video in short order.  I have no shame.

Originally posted by switch

Originally posted by Muskrat37

Originally posted by switch

Originally posted by Muskrat37

Originally posted by switch

OK, swimming peeps.  A few of questions:

At what point should you stop your workout because your form/speed is suffering to much?  Is there a definitive way to make this call? 

Similar question, I have been hitting around 3000yds for the last week, but my arms are pretty dead at the end of that.  I could push through and increase my ydg, but I would have to swim really slowly to do it.  How do you increase yardage?  Do you just accept that your workouts/technique is going to suffer a bit to get to 3500 yds or 4000yds?  What is a reasonable step up?

I have been breathing every two, as that's really what I need to do in races to feel like I'm getting enough.  I'm pretty comfortable on both sides, but I've noticed I end up with a bit of a giddy-up in my stroke when I do that instead of it being more balanced on both sides.  Is that OK, or should I be working to fix that?

 

Oh no - I'm feeling myself getting sucked back in to the Pod Life....  I don't have time to keep up with all you chatty Cathy's.

Any who... I will answer some of your questions, but before I attempt to answer the other questions I have a few of my own... how many days a week are you swimming?  What types of workouts are you doing now?  How much of your workout is devoted to drills?  What level of swimmer are you (beginner, intermediate, advanced)? How is your form now (catch and pull, kick etc)?

Don't worry about breathing every 3... (some will disagree with me on this).  I personally only breath on my left.  I breath every 4 (for the most part).  If I need an extra breath, I will add in an extra one on the 2nd stroke.  So my breathing pattern will be something like 4,4,4,2 - 4,4,2 - 4,4,4,2 and so on.  

I would work on building up your lung capacity.  Whether that means you breath every 4 or every 3 - that is up to you.  Do what is comfortable for you.  Breathing slows you down, and for most people, your stroke will break down while taking a breath.  This means that if you breath every 2, you will work harder to travel 25 yards than if you breath every 4.  Does that make sense?  

How to work on your lung capacity?  Again - maybe controversial, but I would do some sprints.  Get the heart rate up.  When you do sprints... try to go the length of the pool taking as few breaths as possible.  Add a set up 6 X 25 with a 10 second rest to the end of your workout, but before your cool down.  Try to get to 1 or zero breaths per 25.  When you can do 6 x 25 with only 1 breath or less - bump it up to 8, then 10 and so on.  This will also help you build endurance for long swims.  Depending on your swimming level - this should also help you drop time on your long swim.  

Hope this helps...

Haha--I don't know if I should answer your questions; I don't want to draw you into the Pod...

I've just restarted a swim focus.  My plan is to swim at least 5 days a week, but I haven't been swimming regularly since last spring.  There were a few weeks this summer I was in twice, but it was more often one or none.

I'm OK.  My oly swims I was 1:38-1:40/100yds and my HIM I was 1:48/100yds.  Shockingly, that's enough to put me MOP or higher in all of my races.  I would say I'm not a beginner, but I'm not an intermediate either.  Somewhere in the middle.

Catch is getting better, body position could use some work, and my kick is pretty non-existent unless I'm doing short stuff in the pool. I do a really light flutter in races until the last 150 yds or so, and then I'll do a decent 6 beat.

I have never done a set to work on lung capacity.  Never ever.  I will work in the 6 x 25 at the end of my sets. I can swim underwater the length of the pool, but I don't ever do repeats of that 

Maybe subconsciously, I want to be sucked.............(long pause for effect)..................................... back in.

5 days is a lot... 4 will do (if you want to use that extra day to run or something)... 

Here's my advice:

Vary up your swimming days, types of workouts, and yardage.  Similar to running - have a "LONG" swim day.  With swimming - it can be every other week.  When I say long swim day - I mean it's the day that you swim your long straight set.  Some people (swim coaches) don't agree with this, but I always like to do it - if anything, just as a way to gauge my progress, and for the mental boost I get when I swim a straight 2,500 - 3,000 yards.  

The rest of your days should look like this (in general)

• warm up - 15 - 20% of your TOTAL yardage for the day.
• drills - a couple hundred yards... one week focus on balance - the next week, catch and pull - the next week your kick...then repeat the series
• Main set - intervals, intervals, intervals.  Did I say intervals?  To figure out your interval times, swim 50 yards @ 80%..note your time.  Swim 100 yards @ 80 % note your time...do the same for 200 yards.  Do these on different days, at the beginning of the workout (after the warm up).  Add no more than 15 seconds to that time... THIS IS YOUR INTERVAL.  Now - if your main set is 1,000 yards.. you can break it down however you want.. 5 x 200 on your interval time... 10 x 100 on your interval time etc.  If you want... you can mix that up.  You could do 3 x 200 on your interval..then 8 x 50 on your interval.
• 6 x 25's (maybe 4 to start) - sprint... all out... This includes a very rapid kick.  
• cool down. - can be straight, or break it up.  In general - a good cool down is 300 yards or so... gradually getting slower until you are just cruising along for your last lap... sometimes I even swim this one on my back.. float along.. I literally get nice and relaxed before getting out of the pool.  

Follow this for 3-4 months - and your lung capacity will increase (might be a bad term to describe what I mean), and your times should drop.  You should be able to comfortably breath about every 4th stroke (or at least every 3) at what would be YOUR race pace for Oly and above. 

Good luck, and I hope this makes sense.  

P.S.  If you are feeling really brave - borrow someones Go Pro and video tape your swimming (from above the water, and below)... I'll give you some feedback on your swim stroke.  

 

Thanks for the input Chad.  I'm swimming this much because I have a running injury I'm trying to baby

So, using your interval set up, if I swam 100yds at 80% effort at 1:40, I would add 15 seconds to that?  That would be my repeat send off time?  I would still do my intervals close to all out though, yes?

My tri team just got a GoPro, so I will be shooting some video in short order.  I have no shame.

Yes - that would be your send off time.  If you find that is easy to do... then only add 10 seconds.  The measurement should be the 50's.  Start with 5 x 50 - add the 10 seconds, use that as your send off time... You need to build up to 10 x 50 on that interval.  The idea here is that you are pushing yourself.  Most likely... you will miss your interval after by about the 3rd one.  Keep working on it until you can do 10 x 50 on that interval... Then drop your interval time and start over at 5.  Does that make sense?  

No - you don't do them all out.... that's for the sprints at the end, which should hurt a bit.

(bwahhh ahahha ahahhaha).. <--- evil laugh...   

That's great, I assume you'll be picking stuff out for the pod  

Originally posted by Muskrat37

Originally posted by switch  Thanks for the input Chad.  I'm swimming this much because I have a running injury I'm trying to baby

So, using your interval set up, if I swam 100yds at 80% effort at 1:40, I would add 15 seconds to that?  That would be my repeat send off time?  I would still do my intervals close to all out though, yes?

My tri team just got a GoPro, so I will be shooting some video in short order.  I have no shame.

Yes - that would be your send off time.  If you find that is easy to do... then only add 10 seconds.  The measurement should be the 50's.  Start with 5 x 50 - add the 10 seconds, use that as your send off time... You need to build up to 10 x 50 on that interval.  The idea here is that you are pushing yourself.  Most likely... you will miss your interval after by about the 3rd one.  Keep working on it until you can do 10 x 50 on that interval... Then drop your interval time and start over at 5.  Does that make sense?  

No - you don't do them all out.... that's for the sprints at the end, which should hurt a bit.

(bwahhh ahahha ahahhaha)..

For a lot of swimming, think like variations of cruise intervals for running, only broken up into smaller bits. You're going quite strong for awhile with quick rest bits in there. And as Chad said, it's not really all out effort, but a strong effort consistent effort throughout that should leave you quite tired at the end. There will be some variation, but a good deal of the sets will be something like that. It's ok to be a little more aggressive towards pushing yourself in swimming than in running because of the lesser injury risk, but if you plan say 10 x whatever you do want to get about that many it. Only like 4-6 would be rather poor execution.

Although I would not be surprised if you tried the former in the pool. 

Kitchen appliance question for the Pod...

Anyone have a not too $$$ bread machine they really like?  Tired of spending "extra" money for simple, healthy bread. I realize there's the cost of machine and ingredients, but would like to think it's worth it for the smell of fresh bread and making it with the kids.

(sorry to veer from training talk. not much training happening around here, so I might as well investigate food.)

SUPER STINKY LAUNDRY

Everything here grows mold. Doesn't matter if you keep/dry/hang it inside in AC; it will grow mold. Every so often the Hobbit Maid washes all my stuff with powdered detergent and yes, vinegar. Pre-soak overnight for really awful stuff or shoes.

In the U.S., the Penguin brand sports-specific detergent was cheap (especially at Target) and I could use half the recommended amount. Also, no Hobbit Maid so my stuff would sit around for a while. I'm not gonna discuss the socks, but let's just say some rats used some of them as toilet paper for a long time ... Penguin rescued them.

Also, my stuff from CA 70.3 stayed in the transition bag for MONTHS. Both bag and items were rescued courtesy of Penguin wash, only two cycles needed.

SWIM TRAINING AND WORKOUT STRUCTURES

Some stuff is randomly quoted below.

1) Linked article is super clearly written, simple to follow, and shows what Chad and B-whatshisname were talking about: http://www.swimsmooth.com/training.html Further links to more technical information for the wet gearheads as well.

2) If you really want to improve your swimming, get Sheila's Swim Speed Workouts and do them. They are extremely detailed with supplementary material and you can look up videos online. And cheap. Can order in a pack with her Swim Speed Secrets book. Salty felt she got more out of the book by reading it and the "why" made more sense after she'd been doing my adjusted SSW for her; just a thought. AND/OR get the Swim Smooth book and/or videos.

This is only true for true sprints, at the very max 100yd/m, and only useful if you're training to race those distances.

Yes. And the reasons for how you do them, and how many, and how, are in the link previous.

NO.

There are good reasons and ways to train breath control. Hypoxic training, which is what the above is, is an extremely bad idea. It's like run or cycle sprinting while holding your breath--NO demonstrated benefit, and if you pass out while swimming, you could die. There's just no evidence that training of this kind is of any use to distance swimmers and VERY little that it will help sprinters. On the other hand, there's very solid evidence of people who have lost limbs (one on BT!) and life doing hypoxic training.

I've written/contributed to several threads on this on BT if you want to read more--search/Google TriAya-beginnertriathlete-hypoxic.

3) Definitely post video. It's about time for me to do that again too. Chad's observations are always spot on and many of the Manatees are very helpful with this as well.

HOT WET QUESTIONS

Anything swimming, tri swimming, swim coaching related ...

Who knows who he blew to get it, but Kingsley arranged for me to meet with Paul Newsome (Swim Smooth founder and head honcho--former pro triathlete, now a record-setting OWSer and trains elite/pro OWSers as well). This usually involves hundreds of dollars and a 12-month waiting period, so you know Kingsley's got skills. In water and out

There's plenty I've got to chew his ear over, but for sure if there's anything you're curious about, post it and I'll ask. I also now have the resources of a number of top coaches through the SS Coaches Network, so that goes for the future as well.

KINGSLEY

deeply appreciates the welcome and inspires and will get back to everybody.

He's blind so it does indeed take him a lot longer to get through stuff. He's also slowly learning how inspires and everything else works around here. (What, too soon for me to play the blind card for him? C'mon!)

Also, I may have killed him. He had to cut his training short this morning (this is a guy who NEVER does such things) and has spent the rest of the day in bed.

I'm so proud

I will add any hypoxic training i've ever done at squad has been with a pull buoy so no increased heart rate per se.  The trick of breathing less is to go really slowly to ensure your hr stays controlled.  I have only ever done hypoxic training under supervision of John Van Wisse - who is an endurance swimmer, channel crosser etc - in a rough sea no doubt being able to do this would have got him further than some.  He does not force the squad to do it, just try - and more often than not i just do half a lap of the breathing every 7 or whatever and then breathe every 2 to get comfortable.

I would never condone trying this unsupervised under a coach who knows what they are doing