Fred D and Jason's (Tri808) Half Ironman Mentor Group CLOSED! (Page 43)

Time for some mentoring from those with lots more experience; is this normal for making the jump to the HIM volume of training or just a case of "Suck it up, buttercup!"?  How do you distinguish between just being tired from training/life and overdoing it to the point you need to take a (hopefully brief) pause to let the body catch up?  What general advice/cautions would you give to we 'Beginner Triathletes' in this area?

I have a hard time figuring out if I'm getting enough rest/recovery as well.  Twice a week, I'm up at 4am to get on the trainer; two other days, I'm up before 5am to get to the pool.  I try to get to bed around 9pm, but when the alarm goes off, the first thought through my head is "screw this!"  But I drag myself out to bed and off to the workout.  As soon as I get going, things are good.

Even though I feel exhausted when I wake up, my workouts haven't suffered.  I'm hitting power targets on the bike and improving swim times.  If my training was getting worse, I'd be more concerned about not recovering properly. 

That said, as soon as Vineman is done, I'm going to take a week or two off from the 4am trainer rides!!

Overtraining, rest, recovery, HTFU, etc...that's an excellent topic for discussion.

The simple concept of training is that you are adding stress to your body to make fitness improvements.  Without the stress, you won't get any fitter/faster.  So there is an element of needing to "push through" even though training gets a bit tough.  If you started every workout feeling fresh, you're probably not creating enough training stress in your workouts to make any significant gains.

That being said, recovery is an important part of training as well.  You may have heard me say this before, but recovery does not only happen during "rest days"...it happens anytime you aren't training.  When you're sleeping, sitting at your desk, watching TV, doing chores, etc.  Every minute or hour you are not training, your recovering.  Granted, certain forms of recovery like sleeping will are more effective than others like say walking your dog...but just don't get trapped into thinking that you are not recovering unless you take a rest day.

Ok...so I just made things a bit complicated now.  Because to evaluate your recovery, you now need to evaluate everything you're doing during the day besides training to properly assess how much recovery you are getting (both in terms of quantity and quality).  If your day to day schedule is pretty stable, then it becomes a bit easier to predict.  But if you're constantly sleeping and waking up at random times, plan random activities (such as shopping, housework, chores, etc) then it can become a lot more challenging to predict when you need to compensate your training with easier or no workouts.

In the end, it's a very individual thing as far as how much training we can push through while feeling fatigued.  You'll have to experiment on your own and not only evaluate your training, but take note of all the other physical activities you are doing throughout the day including sleep.  This is why your training log is extremely valuable, as well as jotting down notes about some of the non training activities that are out of the "usual" for you.  It could be something as simple as going to a birthday party, or taking an unplanned nap.  Do enough of these "little" things during a week and they can add up quickly and explain why you either had a really good training week or a really poor one.

Great point.  I definitely feel I'm recovering for a run when I'm swimming, or recovery riding, etc. (although not so much recovery running - that doesn't shed quite so much fatigue for the next run for me, although it doesn't build much either). 

While total volume that one can handle is a very individual thing, I'm wondering if it's more similar overall for HIM prep than different between people.  What are you all doing?

My plan is more or less as follows.  3 build weeks, one rest week.  Repeat twice.  Build weeks are 10.5 - 13.5 hours, with something like a 3:5:4 or 3:6:5 s/b/r time split (varies some, but that's close).  "Rest and Test" weeks are 6-9 hours, inclusive of a race if possible.

The end of my first half of the season (as I've posted previously) gets wonky, but is basically two HIM build weeks, one taper week leading to an Oly.  Then two more HIM build weeks, a HIM peak week (between build and taper, but more race-like in workout types) and a HIM taper week to Timberman.  The HIM build weeks should be more like 11-14 hours and I might push the bike percentage up a bit.

I find that the lighter week is appreciated after the build weeks, but not so much that I'm shelled.  Some days are better than others, but this load (the most I've ever done, inclusive of previous marathons and such) seems manageable.  I'm wondering if I'm going to fall off a cliff, though!

What do you all do?  Would be great to hear how you think about structure (not so much to compare hours, but overall structure for your stress/recovery and your relative training time percentages).

Matt

Matt,

In general, I try to build in a lower volume week that acts as a "rest and test" (I like that phrase and will steal it ) to my training.  It usually doesn't follow a hard format such as 3 weeks on and 1 off.  Usually it just matches up with when I'm doing smaller races.  This is specifically why I make my own plans instead of using canned internet plans. 

Well my race is Sunday and I have to say the two weeks leading up to this one I was feeling *really* tired.  When I looked back to my logs from 2 years ago I was also commenting on how fatigued I felt so I think it's just part and parcel for the training.  I treat my swim days like recovery days and focus on getting a good sleep every night which usually has me going to bed at the same time as my child.  What I can say is that I'm now in my taper period and feeling good.  Rested and almost bursting with energy so I guess if we follow the plan... it will work!

Turns out the temperature for race day is supposed to feel like 35degrees eek!  I think that's 96 for US folks.  I don't think I've ever run in such heat. Any tips?  I guess drink lots, I'll take salt.  Hopefully the former doesn't mean I'll have to pee lots.  

Good luck to all those racing this weekend!  Have fun in Tremblant Fred!  Lots of my swimming mates are on their way there now.  Fun fun fun!

Hello everyone! Hope your week is going well. Loved the race reports Tom and Mike! Lots to catch up on.

re: overtraining and training schedules -  This is my second go around for the HIM distance, and last year I had a lot of difficultly telling the difference between fatigue and overtraining. One time, I got back from an early morning bike and I sat on the floor and just started to cry! I'm a pretty strict about following my race plan and at that point I realized that I have to allow myself to skip a workout now and then for my own sanity! I think good food choices also help keep the overtraining/rundown symptoms at bay. This is all individual, but I find, for me, that extra protein helps (I'm a vegetarian).

I follow a 3 week build/1 week recovery plan. During the recovery week I do lots of "active" type recovery - like tons of foam rolling, massage, ice baths. The build weeks can often seem so busy bc of work & family in addition to training so I don't do the best with keeping my body in check during those weeks - but the recovery week helps me push the reset button.

re: the heat. Grab ice at the aid stations. Throw some in your sports bra and down your shorts. Even hold the ice in your hands. I use nuun and when it's really hot I don't even bother dissolving it. I just pop a tab in my mouth, let it fizzle and dissolve and grab some water at the next aid station. A hat and visor. Also - does your run course have shade or is it open? For example, if you know you're going to be taking a 30 sec walk break, may as well walk in the shade instead of in the sun.

As for me, I did a sprint on Sunday. The short version is: Took a detour on the swim, didn't push as hard as I could have on the bike, but had a great run. Lots of fun! Finished 15/300ish OA but 7th in my AG. Tough group! Oh and on the bike I got passed by a 13-year-old and couldn't catch up. That girl is a rockstar!

Also - first OWS yesterday! (Well, besides the race). Lots of chop in Lake Michigan but it was so fun! Water was 62F and it was sunny!  Went swimming during my lunch break and knocked out a mile w/ a friend. First time using my new, longsleeve wetsuit. My shoulders were a bit fatigued but I don't know if that's bc I was fighting the water or maybe I had my suit on wrong.Heading back on Friday as long as the rain stays away. So happy to be back swimming outside! The water temps were in the 50s for so long.

Question for the group.  I am doing a sprint in August that has a pretty steady/steep climb of about 5 miles after descending the same hill.  For a steady state effort, do I do back to my roadie days of switching muscle groups (but did not have to run afterwards), quads to hamis (sitting more back in saddle), with some standing if the effort calls for it, or just stay with quads and slide more to front of saddle and push down more (tri bike).  I will be switching my cassette to the 28'er to give me some more wiggle to easy spin as much as possible.  I am going to the site of the race in two weeks to ride up and down a few times as well.

I was experimenting today on trainer with some big gear efforts to simulate slow cadence efforts up the hill.

Thanks.

Fred, glad you back is better and looking forward to see you defend the honor of the the USA!

brian

Don't know the exact grade of hill, but some of the better cyclists on our team said they were relegated to 7-9mph going up the 5 miles. Not sure if that was a 'Battle story" exaggeration. 

Hydrate, ice, and slow down.  When conditions are bruatal, finishing times are slower across the board...even for the pros.  There are things that you can do to help regulate your body temperature, but nothing affects it more than the effort we are putting out.  If there was a way to "push through" the heat and maintain our pace...then we wouldn't be as affraid or worried about it.

Originally posted by Fred D Been working too hard so sorry for not keeping up as I should. I'm racing this weekend. My back is 'good enough' but not perfect. At this stage of my tri career, honestly we don't usually get perfect so I'm just going to accept it all. PS in the SBR thread there is some good smack talk for this race.... Apparently I'm defending the honor of the USA against 2 Canadian guys. Should be fun

Which bike did you decide to use? Good Luck and represent! An entire country is counting on you

Today's training was good in a number of ways, frustrating in others.  Activity was a 72 mile ride followed by a 30 minute transition run.  Drove up (2 hours) to the race course and rode start to finish which, because they have separate T1 and T2 then required an 18 mile ride back to the start.  Started out feeling like I wasn't really there, sluggish and a little disconnected.  First half of the course is non-stop rollers on a rough road with a slight net uphill and a 200ft climb at the end.  Second half starts with the downhill and is mostly smooth and fast, but a challenging hill at mile 45.  By the time I got to the top of the hill halfway around I was wondering what I was doing out there, but 15 minutes into the second half all was forgotten and things were working great.  Go figure.  At the end of the official course time was 3:07, not far from the 3:00 I was planning to target.  The 30 minute run was great from a standpoint of holding back and keeping the pace between 8:30 and 9:00/mile.  The not-so-great aspect was that my HR was in the 160's.

So the good:

1)  I think I understand what I need to do on race day now.  Take it easy on the front as it can  burn up a lot of credits I'll need later.  Make up the difference on the back where there are much more favorable road conditions and likely a prevailing tailwind.  Easy for me to say, but I don't do 'easy' very well.  Will work on that on remaining training rides.  Unfortunately I don't have a lot of rolling hills like the course nearby and am trying to figure out how to slow it down when it is easy/effort/easy/effort/easy/effort for 90 minutes.

2)  Nutrition/hydration worked great today.  I think I mentioned I worked with Ryan at Infinit to create a formula that is really easy on the flavoring but has all the electrolytes/carbs/etc.  So the mix works out to 6 scoops of powder in one bottle, then fill with water.  Every 15 minutes it is one gulp with a water chaser.  It went down easy all day, even after it warmed up, and I had no GI issues.  That lasted me for 3 hours of the 4 hour ride, so the last hour I experimented with the Clif Mojo bar looking to have something less sweet and a bit salty, but it didn't work out so well as the nuts don't swallow so easy.  Will keep looking on that front, but have the Honey Stinger waffles I know will work.

3)  I'm thinking I'm going to relax my goal from a 6 hour race to a 6:30.  Still noodling on this one, but the logic is that I know I can do each of the legs separately in a time to allow me to do the 6:00.  But I've been paying attention to a number of posts that essentially say that as a beginner you can have a GREAT bike but likely will pay for it on the run.  I think I'm seeing that with the elevated HR during the run today.  That being said, during the run I was thinking about walking for a minute or two to get the HR down, but it was just as easy to keep running.  Question is, how long could I maintain that?

Any advice on these items would be welcome as this was my last long ride >2:30 and I've got to start firming up race plans and putting them into the practice sessions.

Tom...Fred actually has an American partner so it's 2 vs 2.  Should be extremely interesting as they are all very good athletes. 

As for your pacing, I think you're taking a very smart approach by biking on the conservative side.  The funny thing for me is that in my first HIM, I biked really easy and probably had one of the best runs of my life as far as running to my potential.  At the time, I set a new half marathon PR by running 1:52:xx when my "hopeful" goal was to run around 2:00.  So just because you may bike 5ish minutes slower than you want to by backing off...don't be surprised if you make up for it with a great run. 

Also, don't underestimate the mental advantage you'll have if you're running with strong legs than if you're already struggling at mile 5.  It's so much easier to push through the hurt when you're still running at your target pace compared to if you're hurting at a pace 30-60 seconds slower per mile.  That's when it becomes so much easier to walk.

Originally posted by TTom

Originally posted by Fred D Been working too hard so sorry for not keeping up as I should. I'm racing this weekend. My back is 'good enough' but not perfect. At this stage of my tri career, honestly we don't usually get perfect so I'm just going to accept it all. PS in the SBR thread there is some good smack talk for this race.... Apparently I'm defending the honor of the USA against 2 Canadian guys. Should be fun

Two Canadians against one American, that's a bit of piling on, now isn't it.  BUT only if they can catch you!  Go get 'em Fred!

Today's training was good in a number of ways, frustrating in others.  Activity was a 72 mile ride followed by a 30 minute transition run.  Drove up (2 hours) to the race course and rode start to finish which, because they have separate T1 and T2 then required an 18 mile ride back to the start.  Started out feeling like I wasn't really there, sluggish and a little disconnected.  First half of the course is non-stop rollers on a rough road with a slight net uphill and a 200ft climb at the end.  Second half starts with the downhill and is mostly smooth and fast, but a challenging hill at mile 45.  By the time I got to the top of the hill halfway around I was wondering what I was doing out there, but 15 minutes into the second half all was forgotten and things were working great.  Go figure.  At the end of the official course time was 3:07, not far from the 3:00 I was planning to target.  The 30 minute run was great from a standpoint of holding back and keeping the pace between 8:30 and 9:00/mile.  The not-so-great aspect was that my HR was in the 160's.

So the good:

1)  I think I understand what I need to do on race day now.  Take it easy on the front as it can  burn up a lot of credits I'll need later.  Make up the difference on the back where there are much more favorable road conditions and likely a prevailing tailwind.  Easy for me to say, but I don't do 'easy' very well.  Will work on that on remaining training rides.  Unfortunately I don't have a lot of rolling hills like the course nearby and am trying to figure out how to slow it down when it is easy/effort/easy/effort/easy/effort for 90 minutes.

2)  Nutrition/hydration worked great today.  I think I mentioned I worked with Ryan at Infinit to create a formula that is really easy on the flavoring but has all the electrolytes/carbs/etc.  So the mix works out to 6 scoops of powder in one bottle, then fill with water.  Every 15 minutes it is one gulp with a water chaser.  It went down easy all day, even after it warmed up, and I had no GI issues.  That lasted me for 3 hours of the 4 hour ride, so the last hour I experimented with the Clif Mojo bar looking to have something less sweet and a bit salty, but it didn't work out so well as the nuts don't swallow so easy.  Will keep looking on that front, but have the Honey Stinger waffles I know will work.

3)  I'm thinking I'm going to relax my goal from a 6 hour race to a 6:30.  Still noodling on this one, but the logic is that I know I can do each of the legs separately in a time to allow me to do the 6:00.  But I've been paying attention to a number of posts that essentially say that as a beginner you can have a GREAT bike but likely will pay for it on the run.  I think I'm seeing that with the elevated HR during the run today.  That being said, during the run I was thinking about walking for a minute or two to get the HR down, but it was just as easy to keep running.  Question is, how long could I maintain that?

Any advice on these items would be welcome as this was my last long ride >2:30 and I've got to start firming up race plans and putting them into the practice sessions.

Every time you post about riding the Vineman course, I feel extremely jealous!  And then I read through everything you post and really appreciate the fact that you're getting to ride the course and are willing to give little nuggets of "advice" (advice to yourself....and thus information I can use!). 

Not a whole lot to add, but I think if you take everything you've learned in the past couple months, you will be knocking on the sub-6 door.  What's the plan for these last three weeks?  Another build and then a couple taper weeks?  That's my "plan", but I have a hard time following it since I'm not currently running and always seem to want to push the bike and swim!

oooooh, I love this. Good advice.

It felt so good you thought, "Hey, why not ride 112 miles and then run a marathon."  

You've said you won't be doing much interval work.  Are you totally ditching intervals (even bumping up from, say, Z2 to Z3 for a few longer reps on the bike or such)?  Just wondering how that will work in swimming, too, where it seems all the fish say that one is better off doing a bajilliionX100m than just going long.  

Personally, I find that going long at least once a week has actually helped quite a bit with the muscular endurance aspect of training, but I also still mix in the intensity - both because I like it and, more, because I have a LOT of speed to be gained (and I don't want to be out there all day).

How has the mental shift from hammering to long and steady been?

Matt

I'm not ditching intervals at all.  I just meant that I was not going to focus 100% on hitting specific power goals.  So the power intervals and swim intervals are still in there...just that I not going to lose any sleep if I come up 5-10 watts short or 1-2 seconds slower in the pool if I'm having a semi sluggish day.  All my running is generally easy, but at the same time, I'm not worrying if any given run is 10-20 seconds slower than usual.

This approach is working really well for me now as I'm enjoying training thus far.  I put in about 15 hours last week, and will do so again this week and don't feel nearly as beat up as I would for HIM training at that volume.

Thanks for all the feedback everyone, keep it coming.  Yesterday's run following Thursday's (for me) big effort was really quite surprising.  I told my wife I had a 2 hour run and expected I'd just put my head down and get through it, not worrying about how fast or how far.  I'd just keep it comfortable which, to me, means keeping a pace that allows me to breathe out on 4 steps and in on the following 4.  If that number drops to 3, I move to a moderate/challenging pace, and to 2 and it is a focused effort.  Course was 4 laps of rolling hills.  Ended up running 13.8 miles in 2:03 with the 13.1 occurring at 1:57.  Kept it comfortable and it was only mile 13 where the HR edged up to 151.  This was FAR better than what I had expected and makes me scratch my head a bit.  To me it indicates a faster recovery than I've seen before, and a run fitness level that surprised me.  As such, the jury is still out on my HIM plan and likely will be until the day before as I get through taper and see how a rested body feels.  Don't know that I'll shoot for the 6:00, but may not go as conservative as 6:30. 

Nicole, glad to have given you a couple of good nuggets of info on the course.  If you have any specific questions, let me know and I'll be happy to share whatever I can!

Stupid double post.