Ironman Coeur d'Alene : Official Thread (Page 47)

To sum up what y'all are saying:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jHPOzQzk9Qo

ultrahip_00 - 2011-02-03 11:21 AM One quick question for you vet's

i 'custom made' a plan off of BT (using gold membership) - 3x a week, bike focus (4 times biking).  What startles me the most is the swim volume.  this week has been fine, but in a couple weeks, it has me doing 4000+ yard workouts, and it seems like every week after that has atleast one 4000-5000yd workout.  I always had the idea that doing several (1-4 or so) 4000+ workouts was sufficient.  I am not a fish (i think my best 1/2 iron swim was 33:xx, but that was many beers ago and training consistently , but i don't feel like i need to be spending 4 hrs/week in the pool.

thoughts?

ultrahip_00 - 2011-02-03 11:21 AM One quick question for you vet's

i 'custom made' a plan off of BT (using gold membership) - 3x a week, bike focus (4 times biking).  What startles me the most is the swim volume.  this week has been fine, but in a couple weeks, it has me doing 4000+ yard workouts, and it seems like every week after that has atleast one 4000-5000yd workout.  I always had the idea that doing several (1-4 or so) 4000+ workouts was sufficient.  I am not a fish (i think my best 1/2 iron swim was 33:xx, but that was many beers ago and training consistently , but i don't feel like i need to be spending 4 hrs/week in the pool.

thoughts?

coxma22 - 2011-02-02 6:58 PM January's totals: Bike: 18h 17m 37s - 370.94 Mi Run: 13h 48m 06s - 84.22 Mi Swim: 6h 57m 43s - 17050 M Strength: 1h 45m Another Ironfit follower on week 10 of 30, except substituting Jorge bike workouts for the two shorter bike rides each week, so my FTP has been climbing nicely. The big problem I need to solve is the swim, which somehow is getting a little slower each time I do the 1x2500 workout. Hopefully ramping up to 3x3000m each week will help, but I need to find some better drills.

gojogo - 2011-02-03 10:12 AM

I just spoke with a swim coach this week about being more effiecient.  The first thing she asked was how much strength training are you doing?  My answer was a big fat zero.  She suggested that I get a partner and use a medicine ball to do side to side passes and over under passes to work the core and shoulders.   I did some strength training this morning, I was shocked at how much ability I've lost since this fall.  Some how I'm going to fit it in. 

JoshKaptur - 2011-02-03 9:58 AM

Just my personal opinion, but I am not a huge fan of the BT IM plans.  "Balanced" training should be balanced based on your needs and race specifics.  While the bike focused plan does try to address your need (apparently you feel you need the most help there, or feel the greatest benefit comes from work there since you spend the largest proprotion of your day on the bike), it ignores the fact that you're going to be swimming for less than 80 minutes (I'm basing this on your old PR... just a guestimate) and will be running for 5-7+ hours (I'm basing that on what running 3x a week will get you in an IM marathon).

Our HIM swim times are about the same, and I can tell you that I swam a 1:11 at IMLP last year on FAR less swimming than that.  I swam less than 100,000 yards in the 6 months leading up the race.  I paid for it (finsihed about 900th on the swim), but it was calculated because I gave that extra time to run and bike training (I finished in the top 100 on both of those).

If you are open to amending your plan, I would:
- still try to swim 3x a week, but most of your work should be on form/technique... the volume will come with time but swimming long sets with bad form is not going to fix your form problem.  Take the saved time from reducing this volume and give it to running. 
- If you feel comfortable that you can comfortably complete the swim, consider dropping to 2 swims per week and give the extra workout to an extra run.  You will need to swim a whole lot to save yourself a few minutes in the water on race day.  If you give that time to running, you could take hours off of your time.

IMHO what you should be startled about is the lack of running time, not the abundance of swim time.  I think you can very adequately train for an IM by biking 3-4 times per week (because you can bike HARD without getting injured)... but I am very nervous that approaching IM run volume on 3 runs a week is a recipe for injury... and there's nothing that slows you down more on race day than being injured, or having missed a bunch of training due to injury.

Does your schedule allow you to add a 4th, 5th, or even 6th run a week?  They don't have to be long, but the frequency will help you tremendously without far less chance of injury.  Here's a quick illustration:

3 runs @ 6, 10, and 15 for a total of 31 miles that week.
5 runs at 8, 4, 8, 4, 12 for a total of 36 miles that week.

Option two will have you fitter (~15% more mileage), with far less injury risk, than option 1.  And those extra 4 mile runs will take you almost no time... especially compared to driving to/from the pool and swimming 4000 yards.

Of course you need to build up to any volume gradually... but running more frequently will allow you to do that more easily and with far less risk of injury.

If you kept your plan as is, but reduced the 3 swims to 2000 yards and then ran on the gym treadmill for an easy 30 minutes after each swim (for approximately the same amount of time, but now you are running 6x a week), I will almost guarantee you a finish time that is at least 45 minutes faster than if you did the swimming and running, as prescribed.  Like you said, you'll still need to add in a few longer swims as the race approaches, but my idea would give you a couple hundred extra run miles for the same amount of training time.  BT's swim plan might have saved you 2 minutes on your swim... mine will save you many more than that on you run.

* my advice would be different for someone who was really worried about finishing the swim or who was going to swim 2 hours but be totally wasted when they got out of the water... but you are not that person with a 33 minute HIM best.

Full disclosure... you should know that my views have been heavily criticized by people I really respect on this website.  They feel that "neglecting" the swim as I suggest will make the IM swim take far too much of a toll on race day.

spudone - 2011-02-03 2:15 PM
I definitely disagree with those people.

a) most of that "toll" is on your arms
b) in a wetsuit swim, which CdA is, you're expending almost zero effort to stay afloat.
c) if you're willing to stay within yourself and not chase the leaders to draft, you can really manage your HR and keep it low and steady.

If you accept those things then you can conserve energy on the swim and I don't agree at all with the faster person "burning less matches".

If your swim technique is flawed and you're struggling to finish the distance, then that's a different story.

3Aims - 2011-02-03 3:32 PM After looking at the elevation chart for CdA, do you think a 12-27 or 11-28 cassette would be better?  I train on a 12-25 now and live in a relatively flat area (aka, suck at hills).  I do spin out my 12 now and then so I was wondering if a 11-28 might be the best of both worlds.

3Aims - 2011-02-03 12:32 PM After looking at the elevation chart for CdA, do you think a 12-27 or 11-28 cassette would be better?  I train on a 12-25 now and live in a relatively flat area (aka, suck at hills).  I do spin out my 12 now and then so I was wondering if a 11-28 might be the best of both worlds.

3Aims - 2011-02-03 3:32 PM After looking at the elevation chart for CdA, do you think a 12-27 or 11-28 cassette would be better?  I train on a 12-25 now and live in a relatively flat area (aka, suck at hills).  I do spin out my 12 now and then so I was wondering if a 11-28 might be the best of both worlds.

cam111 - 2011-02-02 10:00 PM

Complete sidebar --  I have a hell of a time counting to 160 in the pool, anyone have good tricks for this?

RunRene - 2011-02-03 3:28 PM

I use a Timex Ironman watch to count laps and time.  Start the timer then at each 50 (or 100) hit the lap button.  When you are done hit the stop button.  You then have # of laps and total time.

TriRSquared - 2011-02-03 4:24 PM Was looking for what liquids they have on the course

They say Gatorade... true?

...and came across this...

http://www.ironmancda.com/coursedetail.html

So what is the Kids Pen Dropoff and Pickup?

PGoldberger - 2011-02-04 9:53 AM

The kids pen dropoff was about three years ago when you could run with a family member across the finish line.  Someone must have forgot to clean up the Internet again.