Ironman Coeur d'Alene : Official Thread (Page 47)
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Member ![]() ![]() ![]() | ![]() To sum up what y'all are saying: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jHPOzQzk9Qo I will be whistling "Always Look on the Bright Side of Life" during the second half of the run at CdA. Thanks for reminding me how entertaining Monty Python was/is. |
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Pro ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() | ![]() ultrahip_00 - 2011-02-03 11:21 AM One quick question for you vet's i 'custom made' a plan off of BT (using gold membership) - 3x a week, bike focus (4 times biking). What startles me the most is the swim volume. this week has been fine, but in a couple weeks, it has me doing 4000+ yard workouts, and it seems like every week after that has atleast one 4000-5000yd workout. I always had the idea that doing several (1-4 or so) 4000+ workouts was sufficient. I am not a fish (i think my best 1/2 iron swim was 33:xx, but that was many beers ago and training consistently ![]() thoughts? The swim is very important in the sense that you can put yourself in a pretty big hole coming out if you aren't properly trained and go out too hard. I am not a fish either but I am currently and will continue to do 3-4x4000 yds a week until race day. You can also look at it as building aerobic fitness without the pounding of running or sitting on a bike saddle. |
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Master ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() | ![]() ultrahip_00 - 2011-02-03 11:21 AM One quick question for you vet's i 'custom made' a plan off of BT (using gold membership) - 3x a week, bike focus (4 times biking). What startles me the most is the swim volume. this week has been fine, but in a couple weeks, it has me doing 4000+ yard workouts, and it seems like every week after that has atleast one 4000-5000yd workout. I always had the idea that doing several (1-4 or so) 4000+ workouts was sufficient. I am not a fish (i think my best 1/2 iron swim was 33:xx, but that was many beers ago and training consistently ![]() thoughts? Just my personal opinion, but I am not a huge fan of the BT IM plans. "Balanced" training should be balanced based on your needs and race specifics. While the bike focused plan does try to address your need (apparently you feel you need the most help there, or feel the greatest benefit comes from work there since you spend the largest proprotion of your day on the bike), it ignores the fact that you're going to be swimming for less than 80 minutes (I'm basing this on your old PR... just a guestimate) and will be running for 5-7+ hours (I'm basing that on what running 3x a week will get you in an IM marathon). Our HIM swim times are about the same, and I can tell you that I swam a 1:11 at IMLP last year on FAR less swimming than that. I swam less than 100,000 yards in the 6 months leading up the race. I paid for it (finsihed about 900th on the swim), but it was calculated because I gave that extra time to run and bike training (I finished in the top 100 on both of those). If you are open to amending your plan, I would: - still try to swim 3x a week, but most of your work should be on form/technique... the volume will come with time but swimming long sets with bad form is not going to fix your form problem. Take the saved time from reducing this volume and give it to running. - If you feel comfortable that you can comfortably complete the swim, consider dropping to 2 swims per week and give the extra workout to an extra run. You will need to swim a whole lot to save yourself a few minutes in the water on race day. If you give that time to running, you could take hours off of your time. IMHO what you should be startled about is the lack of running time, not the abundance of swim time. I think you can very adequately train for an IM by biking 3-4 times per week (because you can bike HARD without getting injured)... but I am very nervous that approaching IM run volume on 3 runs a week is a recipe for injury... and there's nothing that slows you down more on race day than being injured, or having missed a bunch of training due to injury. Does your schedule allow you to add a 4th, 5th, or even 6th run a week? They don't have to be long, but the frequency will help you tremendously without far less chance of injury. Here's a quick illustration: 3 runs @ 6, 10, and 15 for a total of 31 miles that week. 5 runs at 8, 4, 8, 4, 12 for a total of 36 miles that week. Option two will have you fitter (~15% more mileage), with far less injury risk, than option 1. And those extra 4 mile runs will take you almost no time... especially compared to driving to/from the pool and swimming 4000 yards. Of course you need to build up to any volume gradually... but running more frequently will allow you to do that more easily and with far less risk of injury. If you kept your plan as is, but reduced the 3 swims to 2000 yards and then ran on the gym treadmill for an easy 30 minutes after each swim (for approximately the same amount of time, but now you are running 6x a week), I will almost guarantee you a finish time that is at least 45 minutes faster than if you did the swimming and running, as prescribed. Like you said, you'll still need to add in a few longer swims as the race approaches, but my idea would give you a couple hundred extra run miles for the same amount of training time. BT's swim plan might have saved you 2 minutes on your swim... mine will save you many more than that on you run. * my advice would be different for someone who was really worried about finishing the swim or who was going to swim 2 hours but be totally wasted when they got out of the water... but you are not that person with a 33 minute HIM best. |
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Extreme Veteran![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() | ![]() coxma22 - 2011-02-02 6:58 PM January's totals: Bike: 18h 17m 37s - 370.94 Mi Run: 13h 48m 06s - 84.22 Mi Swim: 6h 57m 43s - 17050 M Strength: 1h 45m Another Ironfit follower on week 10 of 30, except substituting Jorge bike workouts for the two shorter bike rides each week, so my FTP has been climbing nicely. The big problem I need to solve is the swim, which somehow is getting a little slower each time I do the 1x2500 workout. Hopefully ramping up to 3x3000m each week will help, but I need to find some better drills. I just spoke with a swim coach this week about being more effiecient. The first thing she asked was how much strength training are you doing? My answer was a big fat zero. She suggested that I get a partner and use a medicine ball to do side to side passes and over under passes to work the core and shoulders. I did some strength training this morning, I was shocked at how much ability I've lost since this fall. Some how I'm going to fit it in. |
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Veteran![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() | ![]() gojogo - 2011-02-03 10:12 AM coxma22 - 2011-02-02 6:58 PM January's totals: Bike: 18h 17m 37s - 370.94 Mi Run: 13h 48m 06s - 84.22 Mi Swim: 6h 57m 43s - 17050 M Strength: 1h 45m Another Ironfit follower on week 10 of 30, except substituting Jorge bike workouts for the two shorter bike rides each week, so my FTP has been climbing nicely. The big problem I need to solve is the swim, which somehow is getting a little slower each time I do the 1x2500 workout. Hopefully ramping up to 3x3000m each week will help, but I need to find some better drills. I just spoke with a swim coach this week about being more effiecient. The first thing she asked was how much strength training are you doing? My answer was a big fat zero. She suggested that I get a partner and use a medicine ball to do side to side passes and over under passes to work the core and shoulders. I did some strength training this morning, I was shocked at how much ability I've lost since this fall. Some how I'm going to fit it in. I agree with Josh -- get someone to take a close look at your stroke mechanics. These can change over time even if they were perfect -- what you feel may not be what you're doing. Also, don't let someone give you feedback just from the pool deck. I would have swore I have a good symetrical entry, high elbow and early catch; well, not so much...get a video analysis, I think you'll be amazed at what you find. I did one last week and found a whole bucket of inefficiencies. Good luck! |
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Master ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() | ![]() thanks for the tips Josh. I also did notice the run frequency and mileage in the plan and it had me startled. . 8 miles last sunday, 12 miles this sunday? big jump. I did a november marathon (2nd one), so i was used to running 6x/week, but i was only maxing at about 45 mpw. getting to 40 mpw in 3 runs does scare me. At the same time, running is my strength, and it is the only thing I have been semi consistent (minus injury reducing volume) with the last year or so. I agree, probably the best thing to do is amend some of those long swims to 2500-3000ish yards, work on form, and substitute more running in... |
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Veteran![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() | ![]() JoshKaptur - 2011-02-03 9:58 AM ultrahip_00 - 2011-02-03 11:21 AM One quick question for you vet's i 'custom made' a plan off of BT (using gold membership) - 3x a week, bike focus (4 times biking). What startles me the most is the swim volume. this week has been fine, but in a couple weeks, it has me doing 4000+ yard workouts, and it seems like every week after that has atleast one 4000-5000yd workout. I always had the idea that doing several (1-4 or so) 4000+ workouts was sufficient. I am not a fish (i think my best 1/2 iron swim was 33:xx, but that was many beers ago and training consistently ![]() thoughts? Just my personal opinion, but I am not a huge fan of the BT IM plans. "Balanced" training should be balanced based on your needs and race specifics. While the bike focused plan does try to address your need (apparently you feel you need the most help there, or feel the greatest benefit comes from work there since you spend the largest proprotion of your day on the bike), it ignores the fact that you're going to be swimming for less than 80 minutes (I'm basing this on your old PR... just a guestimate) and will be running for 5-7+ hours (I'm basing that on what running 3x a week will get you in an IM marathon). Our HIM swim times are about the same, and I can tell you that I swam a 1:11 at IMLP last year on FAR less swimming than that. I swam less than 100,000 yards in the 6 months leading up the race. I paid for it (finsihed about 900th on the swim), but it was calculated because I gave that extra time to run and bike training (I finished in the top 100 on both of those). If you are open to amending your plan, I would: - still try to swim 3x a week, but most of your work should be on form/technique... the volume will come with time but swimming long sets with bad form is not going to fix your form problem. Take the saved time from reducing this volume and give it to running. - If you feel comfortable that you can comfortably complete the swim, consider dropping to 2 swims per week and give the extra workout to an extra run. You will need to swim a whole lot to save yourself a few minutes in the water on race day. If you give that time to running, you could take hours off of your time. IMHO what you should be startled about is the lack of running time, not the abundance of swim time. I think you can very adequately train for an IM by biking 3-4 times per week (because you can bike HARD without getting injured)... but I am very nervous that approaching IM run volume on 3 runs a week is a recipe for injury... and there's nothing that slows you down more on race day than being injured, or having missed a bunch of training due to injury. Does your schedule allow you to add a 4th, 5th, or even 6th run a week? They don't have to be long, but the frequency will help you tremendously without far less chance of injury. Here's a quick illustration: 3 runs @ 6, 10, and 15 for a total of 31 miles that week. 5 runs at 8, 4, 8, 4, 12 for a total of 36 miles that week. Option two will have you fitter (~15% more mileage), with far less injury risk, than option 1. And those extra 4 mile runs will take you almost no time... especially compared to driving to/from the pool and swimming 4000 yards. Of course you need to build up to any volume gradually... but running more frequently will allow you to do that more easily and with far less risk of injury. If you kept your plan as is, but reduced the 3 swims to 2000 yards and then ran on the gym treadmill for an easy 30 minutes after each swim (for approximately the same amount of time, but now you are running 6x a week), I will almost guarantee you a finish time that is at least 45 minutes faster than if you did the swimming and running, as prescribed. Like you said, you'll still need to add in a few longer swims as the race approaches, but my idea would give you a couple hundred extra run miles for the same amount of training time. BT's swim plan might have saved you 2 minutes on your swim... mine will save you many more than that on you run. * my advice would be different for someone who was really worried about finishing the swim or who was going to swim 2 hours but be totally wasted when they got out of the water... but you are not that person with a 33 minute HIM best. I'm in the exact same place, and have the exact concern from the BT Intermediate IM plan-- huge swim and low run volumes on the plan. I was initially thinking that the swim volumes early would help kick up the fitness level which would translate to the other disciplines. I may incorporate more running also. I'm a little anxious that I'll get half way through any plan and then figure out what I "should have been doing"... Complete sidebar -- I have a hell of a time counting to 160 in the pool, anyone have good tricks for this? Josh -- I/we really appreciate your perspective. |
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Master![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() | ![]() I agree with some of what Josh said, but... BUT if you really want to improve, a lot of his comments on running apply the same way to swimming. In other words, more days per week in the pool. They don't need to be more hours. When I train swimming I rarely do more than an hour in a given session. You might do 1 or 2 days where you swim the full 2.4 miles just to build confidence. That's a good time for an open water swim if you have a place to do it. Now with that out of the way, Josh is right about the IM swim being a very small slice of the pie. Olympic distance, swim matters a lot. IM -- not so much. If you are finding it hard to hit all your planned workouts and you need to miss something, you're probably better off skipping a swim session than a run day. |
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Master ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() | ![]() Yes - I hope I was clear. If you were asking me how to become a much better swimmer, I'd have you swimming 6+ days a week. But I think everyone's goal is to finish the ironman faster. In terms of return on investment (with respect to your training), swimming is low and biking/running is high. Of course there must be some balance. If you neglect the swimming so much that the swim puts you in a huge hole, then you've missed the mark. But if you put in the work to transform yourself from an already average swimmer into a fish, at the expense of run or bike time, you've really done yourself a disservice IMHO. There will come a point where, for me or anyone, improving on the swim is the most efficient way to get faster. But I am not to that point yet. And I think VERY few people are. Full disclosure... you should know that my views have been heavily criticized by people I really respect on this website. They feel that "neglecting" the swim as I suggest will make the IM swim take far too much of a toll on race day. In other words, they think the effort I expend to go 71 minutes vs. the effort they expend to go 62 minutes has a larger impact on my day than 10 minutes. They believe, to use an endurance nation metaphor, that if we both have 100 matches to burn on race day, I'm burning 15 in my swim and they are only burning 5. So they are now 10 minutes ahead of me with 10 matches in the bank I don't have. However, the same logic can be used on the bike/run portions of the race. What if I bike/run faster and use less matches while doing it because I focused my training there when you were swimming? My answer to that question is that I win... because I'll have put more minutes on you in the bike/run (and used less energy than you doing it) than you put on me in the swim. In the end, we each need to figure out, based on course profile, relative existing ability in each event, distance for each event, etc, where to focus our training. In my n=1 experience... and I'm sorry if this make me sound like a DB... I've yet to finish behind anyone who told me I needed to swim more. No doubt I do need to swim more, because I do not swim very quickly and have quite a bit of room for improvement... but at least for me and my available training time, swimming more was not an option since it would have come at the expense of run/bike time. Edited by JoshKaptur 2011-02-03 1:17 PM |
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Master![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() | ![]() Full disclosure... you should know that my views have been heavily criticized by people I really respect on this website. They feel that "neglecting" the swim as I suggest will make the IM swim take far too much of a toll on race day. I definitely disagree with those people. a) most of that "toll" is on your arms b) in a wetsuit swim, which CdA is, you're expending almost zero effort to stay afloat. c) if you're willing to stay within yourself and not chase the leaders to draft, you can really manage your HR and keep it low and steady. If you accept those things then you can conserve energy on the swim and I don't agree at all with the faster person "burning less matches". If your swim technique is flawed and you're struggling to finish the distance, then that's a different story. |
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Master ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() | ![]() spudone - 2011-02-03 2:15 PM Full disclosure... you should know that my views have been heavily criticized by people I really respect on this website. They feel that "neglecting" the swim as I suggest will make the IM swim take far too much of a toll on race day. I definitely disagree with those people. a) most of that "toll" is on your arms b) in a wetsuit swim, which CdA is, you're expending almost zero effort to stay afloat. c) if you're willing to stay within yourself and not chase the leaders to draft, you can really manage your HR and keep it low and steady. If you accept those things then you can conserve energy on the swim and I don't agree at all with the faster person "burning less matches". If your swim technique is flawed and you're struggling to finish the distance, then that's a different story. Absolutely agreed... I will come out of the water smiling. IM execution is all about pacing until mile 130 or so. Until my IM race begins to look like 1:10 swim, 5:00 bike, and 3:10 run, I won't be focused on my swim training. Because 2-3 extra swim sessions a week might get me 3-5 or maybe even 8 minutes on race day... whereas it would take a lot of work (since presumably I'm already doing a ton of work) to get those extra minutes on the run and the bike. Heck, my numbers might be more like 4:45 and 3:00 before I really switched. But I've got plenty of work to do before that happens. Edited by JoshKaptur 2011-02-03 1:35 PM |
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Veteran ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() | ![]() After looking at the elevation chart for CdA, do you think a 12-27 or 11-28 cassette would be better? I train on a 12-25 now and live in a relatively flat area (aka, suck at hills). I do spin out my 12 now and then so I was wondering if a 11-28 might be the best of both worlds. |
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Champion ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() | ![]() 3Aims - 2011-02-03 3:32 PM After looking at the elevation chart for CdA, do you think a 12-27 or 11-28 cassette would be better? I train on a 12-25 now and live in a relatively flat area (aka, suck at hills). I do spin out my 12 now and then so I was wondering if a 11-28 might be the best of both worlds. If you go back about 10 pages or so there was a lot of talk on this. The general consensus was it's better to have a low gear for the hills and spin out on the downhills unless you are trying for a PR or are a really strong climber. |
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Champion ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() | ![]() Was looking for what liquids they have on the course They say Gatorade... true? ...and came across this... http://www.ironmancda.com/coursedetail.html So what is the Kids Pen Dropoff and Pickup? Edited by TriRSquared 2011-02-03 3:25 PM |
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Master![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() | ![]() 3Aims - 2011-02-03 12:32 PM After looking at the elevation chart for CdA, do you think a 12-27 or 11-28 cassette would be better? I train on a 12-25 now and live in a relatively flat area (aka, suck at hills). I do spin out my 12 now and then so I was wondering if a 11-28 might be the best of both worlds. The problem with the Shimano 11-28 is that you lose your 16 cog. Do some flat (yes flat!) practice rides with your 12-25 and see which gears you spend the most time in. If the 16 is one of them, then you should get the 12-27 for CdA. |
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Master ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() | ![]() 3Aims - 2011-02-03 3:32 PM After looking at the elevation chart for CdA, do you think a 12-27 or 11-28 cassette would be better? I train on a 12-25 now and live in a relatively flat area (aka, suck at hills). I do spin out my 12 now and then so I was wondering if a 11-28 might be the best of both worlds. Do you have a compact or standard crankset? |
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Expert ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() | ![]() cam111 - 2011-02-02 10:00 PM Complete sidebar -- I have a hell of a time counting to 160 in the pool, anyone have good tricks for this? I use a Timex Ironman watch to count laps and time. Start the timer then at each 50 (or 100) hit the lap button. When you are done hit the stop button. You then have # of laps and total time. Edited by RunRene 2011-02-03 5:29 PM |
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Master ![]() ![]() ![]() | ![]() Have been very absent from this thread... Was in a running bubble for months but am now in full-on IMCDA mode. Here are my January totals (with swim/bike used only as very slight cross-training). February will look very different and I'm already enjoying seeing much more green and purple in my graphs!!
Training-wise, I jumped into week 3 of the 24-week plan that I used last year (from a local coach) and am busy ramping up the bike volume, swimming regularly, and trying to keep up with the run. I love Josh's theory of getting in more runs each week. One thing I remember last year was being nervous about the longer runs if I didn't have the shorter runs during the week to support them. I did every "optional" run workout and would throw in another 3-5 miler whenever I could. I plan to do the same this year. Hard to work that around family and schedules, but like everyone, I just do the best I can with all I have. I'm one of those who thrives on the journey and the lifestyle... great posts about race-day execution, too. I have some things I want to do differently this go-around, and no, one of them is not to ease off on the bike!! Ha! Anyway, I plan to be here more often and am already feeling like race day is just around the corner!! |
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Extreme Veteran ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() | ![]() RunRene - 2011-02-03 3:28 PM cam111 - 2011-02-02 10:00 PM Complete sidebar -- I have a hell of a time counting to 160 in the pool, anyone have good tricks for this? I use a Timex Ironman watch to count laps and time. Start the timer then at each 50 (or 100) hit the lap button. When you are done hit the stop button. You then have # of laps and total time. I use a SportCount Lap counter gadget that fits on a finger like a ring. It's super easy and will time laps and count laps. Highly recommend. Here are my January totals:
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Champion ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() | ![]() My simple training is: |
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Master ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() | ![]() I also have a sportcount and love it. It's not the best for in-pool analysis, but definitely gives me the info I want when I recall the data after the workout. But if you just want something to help you keep track of laps, it will be fine. I have trained myself to always hit lap on the same end of the pool... if I am not wearing it I still find myself thumbing my index finger trying to hit the lap button. I would rather have one of those Finis watches that automatically detects when you change directions, as well as keeps track of your stroke count... but they are pricey. If I was more committed to improving my swim (not to open that can of worms again) I would get one. |
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Master ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() | ![]() TriRSquared - 2011-02-03 4:24 PM Was looking for what liquids they have on the course They say Gatorade... true? ...and came across this... http://www.ironmancda.com/coursedetail.html So what is the Kids Pen Dropoff and Pickup? I would be shocked if the on-course drink is not power-bar perform + water on the bike, and power-bar perform + water + coke on the run. |
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Master ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() | ![]() The kids pen dropoff was about three years ago when you could run with a family member across the finish line. Someone must have forgot to clean up the Internet again. |
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Champion ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() | ![]() PGoldberger - 2011-02-04 9:53 AM The kids pen dropoff was about three years ago when you could run with a family member across the finish line. Someone must have forgot to clean up the Internet again. That's what I was thinking it was for. But I also heard they outlawed that. Too bad... |
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