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2012-10-27 8:05 AM
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Subject: RE: Fred D Mentor Group Part III

One of these things is not like the other......

This is what I discovered when I was taping up the vents on my shoes before a ride this morning.

ETA: No idea when that happened.  I've done two trainer rides in the last week and the missing piece isn't there so that means it happened out on the road somewhere...



Edited by axteraa 2012-10-27 8:11 AM




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2012-10-27 8:10 AM
in reply to: #4471506

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Subject: RE: Fred D Mentor Group Part III
marcag - 2012-10-27 8:41 AM
axteraa - 2012-10-26 7:00 PM

This is where an under water video would really help.  Can you get your hands on a water proof camera and a brick to keep it in place?  

Yes. I am going to get an under water camera and continue my work.

With the endless pool videos I feel like the Mr Swim Not Smooth.

Arend, you have to get to Montreal so we can film the proper way of doing it for the group.

I never have any idea when they will send me anywhere for work.  At least not with much warning.

Maybe I can convince my wife that we need to go for a trip!

2012-10-27 1:30 PM
in reply to: #4471530

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Subject: RE: Fred D Mentor Group Part III
TriAya - 2012-10-27 8:24 AM
TheClaaaw - 2012-10-26 9:35 AM
KansasMom - 2012-10-25 8:47 PM
axteraa - 2012-10-25 4:23 PM
GoFaster - 2012-10-25 5:36 PM 

I know Arend also had a period of lots of running (daily if I recall), btu it was shorter distances, and that didn't translate as well for an HM.  Correct me if I'm wrong on this statment Arend.

That's right.  I ran 117 days straight, never more than 12k.  I dropped significant time off both my 5k and 10k best times.  A few months after that I ran a HM after having dropped my weekly running to ~5 times per week and adding longer runs.  The HM hurt bad!  My big mistake there was I was following the Scout "Run lots, mostly easy, sometimes hard" plan.... except i left out the "sometimes hard" part.  

Thank you for this discussion. It's very helpful. Running "mostly easy" is so comfortable. It's easy for me to just keep everything at that easy, comfortable, just barely pushing it state.

What does running "hard" look like to you all? I don't mean pace, but more RPE and structure -- a tempo run, lactate threshold (I've not been tested anyway), track intervals? I'm assuming it means something more than fartleks thrown in now and then, but could that also be part of it?

I also need to hear a lot more about this. I want to switch my run training. I do nothing but the same effort runs, for mileage. I know that got me from the couch (more like recliner) to a ridiculously slow half-marathon, but I think it's time to run, run. Even pushing for a 5k pr this summer, I barely got under 40 minutes. I'm never wiped out the way other people are after a 5k, in terms of breath, sweat, etc... I have sore legs after many miles, which is to be expected, carrying 250. 

I've asked this in different ways in tritalk before, but mostly my take-away was that for a beginner, just get the miles in and speed will come. OK, sure. But I want to run hard. I have a HRM but never use it. I think it can't always get a reading on me, with my size. But let's say it can. Most people seem to use a HRM to keep it DOWN for a period of time. I am such an odd trainer, I am sure I need to use it to push myself to get it UP. OK that came out wrong.

With my shift this winter, to focus on weight loss and speed, I plan to push it. Hard. But I probably need more direction than I have taken the last two years, just counting miles. 

Andy, coming from someone who's been around a while and has lost an entire human in body weight AND run while considerably heavier and shorter than you (unless you're somewhere between 5'3" and 5'4" ... )

This is just my random experience, but ... first, I agree with Fred. Consistent running and continuing to build up (to a lot of) mileage is the cake. And IMO it's going to get you a lot lighter and faster, injury free, than pushing it. Your logs aren't open so I really can't say one way or the other.

My personal opinion is that at your weight and experience level, you're better off including "sometimes hard" as hills and strides.

My other random experience is that it is VERY hard to accomplish two major goals in one season (or off-season). For example, I can either bump up a distance, OR get faster at a current one. But not both.

I can lose a lot of weight, or train a lot. But not both.

There are exceptions. Most of them have dedicated something like 20-30 hrs a week to their goals, or are folks who are literally brand new so are still on the sharp-slope side of the improvement curve.

 

^^^ Yep. ^^^  Running more really is the main thing.

Really pushing yourself in training (I'm talking only about running, here) should be a rarity.  Exactly how rare depends on a lot of things, but you can get faster by NEVER pushing yourself in training.  If you want to go harder in training (rarely!) then you should, IMHO, try one of two things: (1) hills, or (2) push the last mile or so of one of your normal runs.  I would do just one or both of those two things (plus some strides a few times a week -- but that's not really intensity, at least not in the same way) for an entire season before trying other forms of intensity (mostly I have in mind different types of intervals).  

For (1), just find some longish (1/4 - 1/2 mile) hill and run up it several times.  For (2), about 1/2-1 mile from the end, keep pushing the pace gradually until you are beginning to feel like you need to breathe faster than one cycle (in/out) every four footfalls.  (I tend to breathe when my left foot strikes, so it goes like in/left...right...out/left...right and repeat.  If I am wanting to breathe more than that, I'm going pretty hard.)

As for racing, assuming that you have the training to go hard for 5K, then yes, I'd advocate for pretty much slaying yourself in a 5K race.  Assuming that you go in rested and that your training supports it, the recovery penalty is very small.  If you need a motivator, just keep picking people in front of you and trying to pass them.  Don't let yourself give up on trying until you cross the finish line, even if you never actually pass a single person.

2012-10-27 3:01 PM
in reply to: #4433790

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Subject: RE: Fred D Mentor Group Part III
As someone who as of this morning hit a 75 pound weight loss in the last 5-6 years, what they said above. Just run. Lots. Don't do intervals, track work, etc. just run. And lose weight. My regular run times have dropped dramatically especially in the last year when i've lost 30#. And that's solely because I have been able to continue to run. Granted, I run hills and trails often so it's like speed work, but I mix it up. Solely my personal experience based on my n=1 experiment, getting faster as an adult onset runner takes years, and likely several of them. Patience and consistency will win out.
2012-10-27 5:43 PM
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Master
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Subject: RE: Fred D Mentor Group Part III
To add to the running discussion: trust yourself, you will know when it is time to add in intervals and speedwork. Your body will automatically want to run faster, maybe you will hit a plateau when it comes to time and you will feel ready to get out of the comfort zone a bit. The thing to remember is that it takes a long time to get to that point where it is safe to add speedwork. It takes longer than you think. Any down time for injury or illness sets you back. Always err on the side of caution. When you do add some speedwork, it should be to compliment a well rounded running program. "Race pace" running is much more beneficial and appropriate for triathlon training anyways.
2012-10-27 6:31 PM
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Subject: RE: Fred D Mentor Group Part III
I am really appreciating this feedback. I live in central pa, so every run has hills, no matter what direction or dtsance I go.

Some benchmarks:

First half marathon, 3:54. 285 pounds, undertrained, thigh blisters at the end, walking dead.

2nd half mary three months later. 245 pounds, consistent running. Felt good, took 44:44 off the time.

third half marathon, another 5. Months. Bump back up to 260. Smilar course to pr course, still took over 3:30.

completed b2b. Half mary time 3:48. Did 100 miles of running in 30 days consistently in lead up. Blke training was weak.

doing one more half in december. Goal: under 250 pounds, beat pr by any amount. Sub 3 hours is the pipe dream.

When I say "speed" I mean I am shooting for 12 minute miles instead of 14+. I am not sure this will be as hard or injury inducing as an 8:00 mile runner going to 7:00.

The weight is crucial. I spent the first half of this year in a good place with recovery. The wheels fell off in July, and I am just now getting back to the place mentally where weight loss is going to begin again. And I am well aware that my situation has been so bad, that any forward progress is good. I don't want to sound impatient. But I just hope as weight drops, the "free speed" associated comes too.



2012-10-27 6:53 PM
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Subject: RE: Fred D Mentor Group Part III
TheClaaaw - 2012-10-27 7:31 PM I am really appreciating this feedback. I live in central pa, so every run has hills, no matter what direction or dtsance I go.

Some benchmarks:

First half marathon, 3:54. 285 pounds, undertrained, thigh blisters at the end, walking dead.

2nd half mary three months later. 245 pounds, consistent running. Felt good, took 44:44 off the time.

third half marathon, another 5. Months. Bump back up to 260. Smilar course to pr course, still took over 3:30.

completed b2b. Half mary time 3:48. Did 100 miles of running in 30 days consistently in lead up. Blke training was weak.

doing one more half in december. Goal: under 250 pounds, beat pr by any amount. Sub 3 hours is the pipe dream.

When I say "speed" I mean I am shooting for 12 minute miles instead of 14+. I am not sure this will be as hard or injury inducing as an 8:00 mile runner going to 7:00.

The weight is crucial. I spent the first half of this year in a good place with recovery. The wheels fell off in July, and I am just now getting back to the place mentally where weight loss is going to begin again. And I am well aware that my situation has been so bad, that any forward progress is good. I don't want to sound impatient. But I just hope as weight drops, the "free speed" associated comes too.

I love that you are able to share your story and be honest with yourself.  That is a huge part of success.

The weight, as you recognize, is absolutely key.  You will gain far more in speed by running to lose weight than you will by doing any kind of speedwork.  Just run -- and congrats on your progress this far!

But to address your question, any increase in intensity carries additional risk of injury, a risk that is multiplied by the added impact due to weight.  So be careful out there, and just keep running!  (14:00 down to 12:00 is actually a bigger increase in speed -- over 14% -- than 8:00 to 7:00 -- 12.5%)  

2012-10-28 6:29 AM
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Subject: RE: Fred D Mentor Group Part III
axteraa - 2012-10-27 9:05 AM

One of these things is not like the other......

This is what I discovered when I was taping up the vents on my shoes before a ride this morning.

ETA: No idea when that happened.  I've done two trainer rides in the last week and the missing piece isn't there so that means it happened out on the road somewhere...

Whoa! You must literally be crushing the bike!On another note, I can S/B/R for hours, but spend part of a morning with the weed-eater and my back and arms are killing me.
2012-10-28 7:04 AM
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Subject: RE: Fred D Mentor Group Part III

I am torturing myself on the bike this weekend. Yesterday was a tough 80 mile group ride (windy) and I am up bright and early this morning to ride South Mountain with some friends. I plan on taking it easy but there really is no easy up that hill!

2012-10-28 7:49 AM
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Subject: RE: Fred D Mentor Group Part III
Experior - 2012-10-27 7:53 PMI love that you are able to share your story and be honest with yourself.  That is a huge part of success.

The weight, as you recognize, is absolutely key.  You will gain far more in speed by running to lose weight than you will by doing any kind of speedwork.  Just run -- and congrats on your progress this far!

But to address your question, any increase in intensity carries additional risk of injury, a risk that is multiplied by the added impact due to weight.  So be careful out there, and just keep running!  (14:00 down to 12:00 is actually a bigger increase in speed -- over 14% -- than 8:00 to 7:00 -- 12.5%)  

Absolutely key, and absolutely correct. Great advice.Hang in there Andy...you're on the right track. I'll be following your progress as my brother is in a very similar situation now.
2012-10-28 7:54 AM
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Subject: RE: Fred D Mentor Group Part III
Fred and others...any further thoughts in addition to Quassy on 2013 races for a group meet-up??Anyone planning to race in the southeast US??


2012-10-28 8:08 AM
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2012-10-28 8:57 AM
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2012-10-28 9:05 AM
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2012-10-28 9:55 AM
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Subject: RE: Fred D Mentor Group Part III

bdesotell - 2012-10-28 8:54 AM

Anyone planning to race in the southeast US??

I race almost exclusively in the southeast.  Right now I know I'll do Raleigh 70.3.  I normally do most of the Setup Events races that are in SC, and a few in NC.  I'm still on the fence about Eagleman, but it's looking likely as it fits well with current vacation plans, though I'm also pondering doing something else in that area.

2012-10-28 10:59 AM
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Subject: RE: Fred D Mentor Group Part III

Got in my long run before Frankenstorm hits on Tuesday. Ran in about 98% humidity (which is really like running through soup), but it is a coolish day (48 degrees right now), so not too bad. I think I finally figured out long run nutrition for me. I had been waiting until 45-60 minutes in to start taking anything (typically a gel)....this time I brought honey stinger gel blocks with me and had one every mile with a swig of water...felt much more even throughout. Thank goodness! And the foot made it the whole distance, only getting a little grumpy at the end. I just want to get to 40mpw again...that seems to be a really good distance for me.

Andy - I completely agree - focus on the weight loss first as much as you can. There is a website that gives you a (rough) estimate of the amount of time off your pace for your weight loss (here) that may give you an idea of the impact. A friend of mine told me once, "It's all about choices. You can choose to eat the donut and at the same time you can choose to run the 3 miles." Everytime I start to waver (either with a questionable eating decision or the motivation to get the workout down), I tell myself that it's down to a simple choice. And I get to make the choice.



2012-10-28 11:19 AM
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Subject: RE: Fred D Mentor Group Part III

So, it's random Yanti check-in time

What I learned this week is that a couple drops of tea tree oil added to any standard nethers-lube (except the expensive menthol-tingly stuff) transforms plain old Vaseline/shea butter/SportShield/Aquaphor/etc. into a lubing product that's superior to the expensive menthol-tingly stuff. And it doesn't sting at all even on open sores. In fact, I really feel that its astringent and antiseptic properties (yes, also above witch hazel lubes) prevent AND heal ingrowns, bumps, sores, etc.

I'm on the ER to IM in 8 weeks plan (again, it's gotta work this time, right?), at the end of a 17.5 hour training week, mostly T.I.T.S. I feel much better than I thought, definitely tired though. Been needing 10-12 hours' sleep a night. Took yesterday off; taking days off whenever needed. Big bump in volume has affected arthritis; yoga and NSAIDs (as usual) seem to help. (I'm not getting an injury feel from it, just how the creaky major joints always feel with changes in activity. Or weather. Or anything, really). After two big weeks, gonna cut back a bit next week, then it's straight-up build to IMWA on Dec. 9th.

Running a bit to medium-bit most days. Cycling a couple to a lot of hours most days; I'd call the effort at slightly uncomfortable, with a few comfortable minutes here and there and a few distinctly uncomfortable minutes here and there. Swimming whenever I can. That's pretty much the entire plan; no real taper except longest ride about 10-11 days out from race, and race week itself quite light.

 

2012-10-28 11:31 AM
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Payson, AZ
Subject: RE: Fred D Mentor Group Part III
if anyone can pull it off Yanti it is you. 
2012-10-28 11:57 AM
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Melon Presser
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Subject: RE: Fred D Mentor Group Part III

bzgl40 - 2012-10-29 12:31 AM if anyone can pull it off Yanti it is you. 

Many thanks, K.

And if I don't pull it off, I do intend to enjoy every bit of the journey. Which, as I've pointed out, is paid for so I might as well go along for the crazy ride!

2012-10-28 12:26 PM
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Subject: RE: Fred D Mentor Group Part III

Hawaii went through a tsunami warning overnight due to the earthquake off of BC.  I'm not in a tsunami zone, so it was no big deal for me, but it was pretty crazy trying to evacuate people from the coastal areas when the announcement was made at 7:30 pm. 

Thankfully, no major waves came and the warning was cancelled at about 2am local time.  I'm wondering though if the Xterra World Championships will cancel their swim.  Supposed to start in about 90 minutes off of Maui, but I think many of our Oahu beaches are still closed due to possible current and tidal shifts that happen 2-3 days after a tsunami.

2012-10-28 1:26 PM
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Elite
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Subject: RE: Fred D Mentor Group Part III

Yanti, you can do it!  I've heard good things about the ER to IM plan.  

I had a good training day today, did a 1500 TT in the pool this morning and then a 14.2 km run this afternoon.  Feeling good about everything!  A couple of power tests on the bike coming up this week - those are always fun!



2012-10-28 1:52 PM
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Subject: RE: Fred D Mentor Group Part III
tri808 - 2012-10-28 10:26 AM

Hawaii went through a tsunami warning overnight due to the earthquake off of BC.  I'm not in a tsunami zone, so it was no big deal for me, but it was pretty crazy trying to evacuate people from the coastal areas when the announcement was made at 7:30 pm. 

Thankfully, no major waves came and the warning was cancelled at about 2am local time.  I'm wondering though if the Xterra World Championships will cancel their swim.  Supposed to start in about 90 minutes off of Maui, but I think many of our Oahu beaches are still closed due to possible current and tidal shifts that happen 2-3 days after a tsunami.

 

My BFF is racing Xterra worlds today in Maui so I have been trying to get updates on whether or not they will swim. She said there were swells yesterday but I haven't had any more updates. 

 

ETA: I just saw the live feed from the swim start, looks like it's a go on the swim. My friend is hoping to podium in her AG! Go Amy!



Edited by riorio 2012-10-28 2:01 PM
2012-10-28 2:07 PM
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Subject: RE: Fred D Mentor Group Part III

tri808 - 2012-10-28 12:26 PM

I'm wondering though if the Xterra World Championships will cancel their swim.  Supposed to start in about 90 minutes off of Maui, but I think many of our Oahu beaches are still closed due to possible current and tidal shifts that happen 2-3 days after a tsunami.

 

A friend is racing Xterra and it looks like the swim is happening.

It will be cool to see Gomez and Kienle race this.

2012-10-28 2:09 PM
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Subject: RE: Fred D Mentor Group Part III
riorio - 2012-10-28 1:52 PM

My BFF is racing Xterra worlds today in Maui so I have been trying to get updates on whether or not they will swim. She said there were swells yesterday but I haven't had any more updates. 

ETA: I just saw the live feed from the swim start, looks like it's a go on the swim. My friend is hoping to podium in her AG! Go Amy!

 

What AG ?

A friend of mine is 30-34F.



Edited by marcag 2012-10-28 2:11 PM
2012-10-28 2:13 PM
in reply to: #4472481

Master
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Subject: RE: Fred D Mentor Group Part III
marcag - 2012-10-28 12:09 PM
riorio - 2012-10-28 1:52 PM

My BFF is racing Xterra worlds today in Maui so I have been trying to get updates on whether or not they will swim. She said there were swells yesterday but I haven't had any more updates. 

ETA: I just saw the live feed from the swim start, looks like it's a go on the swim. My friend is hoping to podium in her AG! Go Amy!

 

What AG ?

A friend of mine is 30-34F.

 

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