login
Bernie Sanders Thread (Page 6)
-
No new posts
|
 2016-02-13 10:40 PM in reply to: ChineseDemocracy |
 Subject: RE: Bernie Sanders ThreadCD, necessity is the mother of invention. The other side of the coin, imo, is when we have the types of government hand out programs we have today it breeds a class of dependency. Since we started the "War on Poverty" please give me your thoughts on if it''s been successful or not?,,,,, and i'm assuming successful would be fewer people not more in poverty. |
| 2016-02-14 7:41 AM in reply to: crusevegas |
Elite  4547   | Subject: RE: Bernie Sanders Thread Originally posted by crusevegas CD, necessity is the mother of invention. The other side of the coin, imo, is when we have the types of government hand out programs we have today it breeds a class of dependency. Since we started the "War on Poverty" please give me your thoughts on if it''s been successful or not?,,,,, and i'm assuming successful would be fewer people not more in poverty. I'll do my best to answer, but here's the problem with the question. It assumes that "a," the war on poverty, is the direct cause of "b," more people in poverty. It's much more complex than that. Is it fair to say that since the 1960s, the amount of taxation on the wealthiest and highest-earning Americans has sharply decreased? The stats I have read show this to be true. Has increased globalization stripped us of a manufacturing base that used to allow relatively uneducated workers the chance to make a decent wage that could support a family? I am pretty sure that's the case. It's no longer true. And, as entertaining as Donald Trump is, how on earth are American companies going to bring manufacturing jobs back to the U.S. when they can pay workers in SE Asia 1/10th of what they'd pay American workers? It isn't going to happen in my opinion. |
| 2016-02-14 3:44 PM in reply to: ChineseDemocracy |
Champion 7821   Brooklyn, NY | Subject: RE: Bernie Sanders Thread Originally posted by ChineseDemocracy Originally posted by crusevegas CD, necessity is the mother of invention. The other side of the coin, imo, is when we have the types of government hand out programs we have today it breeds a class of dependency. Since we started the "War on Poverty" please give me your thoughts on if it''s been successful or not?,,,,, and i'm assuming successful would be fewer people not more in poverty. I'll do my best to answer, but here's the problem with the question. It assumes that "a," the war on poverty, is the direct cause of "b," more people in poverty. It's much more complex than that. Is it fair to say that since the 1960s, the amount of taxation on the wealthiest and highest-earning Americans has sharply decreased? The stats I have read show this to be true. Has increased globalization stripped us of a manufacturing base that used to allow relatively uneducated workers the chance to make a decent wage that could support a family? I am pretty sure that's the case. It's no longer true. And, as entertaining as Donald Trump is, how on earth are American companies going to bring manufacturing jobs back to the U.S. when they can pay workers in SE Asia 1/10th of what they'd pay American workers? It isn't going to happen in my opinion. The interesting thing to me, since I work for a consumer products company, is that it wouldn't take a whole lot to make it possible to do more manufacturing in the US. But it would increase the cost of the goods we buy and the American consumer is so conditioned to buy based on price alone that they wouldn't stand for it. Its like when people complain about the reduction in service and amenities on airlines and then go online and choose their flight based on the one that's $5 cheaper. |
| 2016-02-27 10:16 PM in reply to: jmk-brooklyn |
Pro 9391 Omaha, NE | Subject: RE: Bernie Sanders Thread |
| 2016-02-28 7:02 AM in reply to: tuwood |
Elite 4547 | Subject: RE: Bernie Sanders Thread Reince Priebus might not be sleeping too well lately.  |
| 2016-02-28 1:59 PM in reply to: ChineseDemocracy |
Pro 9391 Omaha, NE | Subject: RE: Bernie Sanders Thread Originally posted by ChineseDemocracy Originally posted by tuwood Reince Priebus might not be sleeping too well lately. Clinton thunders to big win over Sanders in South Carolina Ruh Roh I can't quite figure Priebus out. The "establishment" is doing everything they can to keep Trump out, but he seems to kind of sit in the middle of it all and not take sides. I guess that's probably what he should be doing, but who knows. I'm not too sure anybody is very worried about Hillary. With Bernie there was/is an energized base out there, so no matter what he's hocking it doesn't matter if he gets enough energy behind him. Hillary has the auto votes from the demographics that support her based on her gender, but there's not even much energy from them. |
| 2016-02-28 2:15 PM in reply to: tuwood |
Master 2802 Minnetonka, Minnesota Bronze member | Subject: RE: Bernie Sanders Thread Originally posted by tuwood Originally posted by ChineseDemocracy Originally posted by tuwood Reince Priebus might not be sleeping too well lately. Clinton thunders to big win over Sanders in South Carolina Ruh Roh I can't quite figure Priebus out. The "establishment" is doing everything they can to keep Trump out, but he seems to kind of sit in the middle of it all and not take sides. I guess that's probably what he should be doing, but who knows. I'm not too sure anybody is very worried about Hillary. With Bernie there was/is an energized base out there, so no matter what he's hocking it doesn't matter if he gets enough energy behind him. Hillary has the auto votes from the demographics that support her based on her gender, but there's not even much energy from them. I know you like to think Hillary will be crushed, but would love to see some facts, data or analysis rather than just gut feel or anecdotal evidence to back that up - if you got any.... |
| 2016-02-28 2:18 PM in reply to: tuwood |
Elite 4547 | Subject: RE: Bernie Sanders Thread Originally posted by tuwood Originally posted by ChineseDemocracy Originally posted by tuwood Reince Priebus might not be sleeping too well lately. Clinton thunders to big win over Sanders in South Carolina Ruh Roh I can't quite figure Priebus out. The "establishment" is doing everything they can to keep Trump out, but he seems to kind of sit in the middle of it all and not take sides. I guess that's probably what he should be doing, but who knows. I'm not too sure anybody is very worried about Hillary. With Bernie there was/is an energized base out there, so no matter what he's hocking it doesn't matter if he gets enough energy behind him. Hillary has the auto votes from the demographics that support her based on her gender, but there's not even much energy from them. But Tony, in true opposition fashion, the Rs keep making the same mistake year after year. They go for the jugular too early. Whether it's McCarthy spilling the beans on propping up the Benghazi charade/spectacle to expressly destroy Hillary before she could get the nomination, or Trump pulling a "guilt by association" attack on Hillary with Bill's personal life being re-hashed for the millionth time...the Rs never learn. They did it with Jeremiah Wright back in '08, Bill Ayers, etc. Stuff that has nothing to do with how Obama would have run the country. In hindsight now, did Obama try to establish reparations for slavery? Was a socialist system put in place to replace our republic? Was he finally found out as a Muslim that 70% of Rs thought he was? Give me a break. The fear-mongering is/was so silly. It's become a case of the boy who cried wolf. If they were smart, they'd save the sensational nonsense for the week of the election. The Rs are on the wrong side of many social issues...(and by wrong, I mean politically. >50% of the electorate is on the side of the Ds when it comes to social issues). gay rights, abortion, equal pay for equal work, Throw in growing inequality, and non-upper income voting blocs are very receptive to the message of making upper income folks take on a fairer share of the tax burden. Having Sanders run has been great as it provides a contrast for Hillary to demonstrate her Democratic vision is not a socialist vision. Plus, she brings a message of hope, not anger. Hope and optimism typically sell better than fear and anger. Remember Yoda's words..."Fear leads to anger...anger leads to hate...hate leads to, suffering." |
| 2016-02-28 2:36 PM in reply to: ejshowers |
| Subject: RE: Bernie Sanders Thread Originally posted by ejshowers Originally posted by tuwood I know you like to think Hillary will be crushed, but would love to see some facts, data or analysis rather than just gut feel or anecdotal evidence to back that up - if you got any.... Originally posted by ChineseDemocracy Originally posted by tuwood Reince Priebus might not be sleeping too well lately. Clinton thunders to big win over Sanders in South Carolina Ruh Roh I can't quite figure Priebus out. The "establishment" is doing everything they can to keep Trump out, but he seems to kind of sit in the middle of it all and not take sides. I guess that's probably what he should be doing, but who knows. I'm not too sure anybody is very worried about Hillary. With Bernie there was/is an energized base out there, so no matter what he's hocking it doesn't matter if he gets enough energy behind him. Hillary has the auto votes from the demographics that support her based on her gender, but there's not even much energy from them. you mean like the professionals have had about Trump over the last few months? Lol |
| 2016-02-28 2:54 PM in reply to: crusevegas |
Elite 4547 | Subject: RE: Bernie Sanders Thread Originally posted by crusevegas Originally posted by ejshowers Originally posted by tuwood I know you like to think Hillary will be crushed, but would love to see some facts, data or analysis rather than just gut feel or anecdotal evidence to back that up - if you got any.... Originally posted by ChineseDemocracy Originally posted by tuwood Reince Priebus might not be sleeping too well lately. Clinton thunders to big win over Sanders in South Carolina Ruh Roh I can't quite figure Priebus out. The "establishment" is doing everything they can to keep Trump out, but he seems to kind of sit in the middle of it all and not take sides. I guess that's probably what he should be doing, but who knows. I'm not too sure anybody is very worried about Hillary. With Bernie there was/is an energized base out there, so no matter what he's hocking it doesn't matter if he gets enough energy behind him. Hillary has the auto votes from the demographics that support her based on her gender, but there's not even much energy from them. you mean like the professionals have had about Trump over the last few months? Lol There is no doubt Trump has exceeded expectations. His speeches have been very entertaining, and remarkably powerful. His speech in Fort Worth following Christie's endorsement...I watched it with my family. He was really, really good. He is out-communicating both Rubio and Cruz. It's not even close. And remember, that's what this is all about. Who communicates the message the best. Issues (even though they should be more important) are not the most powerful vote-getter. Communication is. As long as I've been alive it has been this way in the race for POTUS. |
| 2016-02-28 3:33 PM in reply to: ChineseDemocracy |
Champion 7821 Brooklyn, NY | Subject: RE: Bernie Sanders Thread Originally posted by ChineseDemocracy Originally posted by crusevegas Originally posted by ejshowers Originally posted by tuwood I know you like to think Hillary will be crushed, but would love to see some facts, data or analysis rather than just gut feel or anecdotal evidence to back that up - if you got any.... Originally posted by ChineseDemocracy Originally posted by tuwood Reince Priebus might not be sleeping too well lately. Clinton thunders to big win over Sanders in South Carolina Ruh Roh I can't quite figure Priebus out. The "establishment" is doing everything they can to keep Trump out, but he seems to kind of sit in the middle of it all and not take sides. I guess that's probably what he should be doing, but who knows. I'm not too sure anybody is very worried about Hillary. With Bernie there was/is an energized base out there, so no matter what he's hocking it doesn't matter if he gets enough energy behind him. Hillary has the auto votes from the demographics that support her based on her gender, but there's not even much energy from them. you mean like the professionals have had about Trump over the last few months? Lol There is no doubt Trump has exceeded expectations. His speeches have been very entertaining, and remarkably powerful. His speech in Fort Worth following Christie's endorsement...I watched it with my family. He was really, really good. He is out-communicating both Rubio and Cruz. It's not even close. And remember, that's what this is all about. Who communicates the message the best. Issues (even though they should be more important) are not the most powerful vote-getter. Communication is. As long as I've been alive it has been this way in the race for POTUS. I guess so, but I don't see that message winning over much of the moderate base that both Romney and MCain were unable to win. I also see him alienating a lot of traditional republicans who might be inclined to sit out the election or switch parties rather than support him. I've seen a couple of articles recently (granted they were in some "liberal rags" #eyeroll) that talked about some GOP donors and other Republicans saying they'd sooner vote for Hillary than Trump. Trump has chosen a very divisive approach, and its certainly getting a lot of play from people who are sick of politics as usual. It's a big gamble, though. |
| 2016-02-28 3:49 PM in reply to: jmk-brooklyn |
Elite 4547 | Subject: RE: Bernie Sanders Thread Originally posted by jmk-brooklyn Originally posted by ChineseDemocracy Originally posted by crusevegas Originally posted by ejshowers Originally posted by tuwood I know you like to think Hillary will be crushed, but would love to see some facts, data or analysis rather than just gut feel or anecdotal evidence to back that up - if you got any.... Originally posted by ChineseDemocracy Originally posted by tuwood Reince Priebus might not be sleeping too well lately. Clinton thunders to big win over Sanders in South Carolina Ruh Roh I can't quite figure Priebus out. The "establishment" is doing everything they can to keep Trump out, but he seems to kind of sit in the middle of it all and not take sides. I guess that's probably what he should be doing, but who knows. I'm not too sure anybody is very worried about Hillary. With Bernie there was/is an energized base out there, so no matter what he's hocking it doesn't matter if he gets enough energy behind him. Hillary has the auto votes from the demographics that support her based on her gender, but there's not even much energy from them. you mean like the professionals have had about Trump over the last few months? Lol There is no doubt Trump has exceeded expectations. His speeches have been very entertaining, and remarkably powerful. His speech in Fort Worth following Christie's endorsement...I watched it with my family. He was really, really good. He is out-communicating both Rubio and Cruz. It's not even close. And remember, that's what this is all about. Who communicates the message the best. Issues (even though they should be more important) are not the most powerful vote-getter. Communication is. As long as I've been alive it has been this way in the race for POTUS. I guess so, but I don't see that message winning over much of the moderate base that both Romney and MCain were unable to win. I also see him alienating a lot of traditional republicans who might be inclined to sit out the election or switch parties rather than support him. I've seen a couple of articles recently (granted they were in some "liberal rags" #eyeroll) that talked about some GOP donors and other Republicans saying they'd sooner vote for Hillary than Trump. Trump has chosen a very divisive approach, and its certainly getting a lot of play from people who are sick of politics as usual. It's a big gamble, though. I NEVER buy the "sitting this one out" statements, period. McCain and Romney could not communicate effectively. While I have a ton of respect for John McCain, the man and the war hero...his ability to effectively communicate a message was limited. Romney, while he's probably a nice guy to have as a neighbor, appeared incredibly socially awkward in my opinion. Trump doesn't have that problem. He attracts the limelight and never shies away from it. He hasn't wilted under pressure. Right now is kind of like the run-up to the NFL draft. Teams will be lying their arses off trying to deflect true ambitions. Does the GOP establishment want Rubio in there? Heck yes. Will they say everything they can to try and increase the odds of that happening? Oh yes. Will any of them vote for Hillary over (insert GOP nominee here)? Absolutely not. btw, as for being "divisive," if you listen to Trump's speeches and interviews, he's actually more a populist than a divider in my opinion. He's been extremely clever thus far and I give him props. While I don't agree with his R stances, I respect the way he's gone about this so unconventionally and successfully. |
| 2016-02-28 4:18 PM in reply to: ChineseDemocracy |
Elite 4547 | Subject: RE: Bernie Sanders Thread Originally posted by ChineseDemocracy Originally posted by jmk-brooklyn Originally posted by ChineseDemocracy Originally posted by crusevegas Originally posted by ejshowers Originally posted by tuwood I know you like to think Hillary will be crushed, but would love to see some facts, data or analysis rather than just gut feel or anecdotal evidence to back that up - if you got any.... Originally posted by ChineseDemocracy Originally posted by tuwood Reince Priebus might not be sleeping too well lately. Clinton thunders to big win over Sanders in South Carolina Ruh Roh I can't quite figure Priebus out. The "establishment" is doing everything they can to keep Trump out, but he seems to kind of sit in the middle of it all and not take sides. I guess that's probably what he should be doing, but who knows. I'm not too sure anybody is very worried about Hillary. With Bernie there was/is an energized base out there, so no matter what he's hocking it doesn't matter if he gets enough energy behind him. Hillary has the auto votes from the demographics that support her based on her gender, but there's not even much energy from them. you mean like the professionals have had about Trump over the last few months? Lol There is no doubt Trump has exceeded expectations. His speeches have been very entertaining, and remarkably powerful. His speech in Fort Worth following Christie's endorsement...I watched it with my family. He was really, really good. He is out-communicating both Rubio and Cruz. It's not even close. And remember, that's what this is all about. Who communicates the message the best. Issues (even though they should be more important) are not the most powerful vote-getter. Communication is. As long as I've been alive it has been this way in the race for POTUS. I guess so, but I don't see that message winning over much of the moderate base that both Romney and MCain were unable to win. I also see him alienating a lot of traditional republicans who might be inclined to sit out the election or switch parties rather than support him. I've seen a couple of articles recently (granted they were in some "liberal rags" #eyeroll) that talked about some GOP donors and other Republicans saying they'd sooner vote for Hillary than Trump. Trump has chosen a very divisive approach, and its certainly getting a lot of play from people who are sick of politics as usual. It's a big gamble, though. I NEVER buy the "sitting this one out" statements, period. McCain and Romney could not communicate effectively. While I have a ton of respect for John McCain, the man and the war hero...his ability to effectively communicate a message was limited. Romney, while he's probably a nice guy to have as a neighbor, appeared incredibly socially awkward in my opinion. Trump doesn't have that problem. He attracts the limelight and never shies away from it. He hasn't wilted under pressure. Right now is kind of like the run-up to the NFL draft. Teams will be lying their arses off trying to deflect true ambitions. Does the GOP establishment want Rubio in there? Heck yes. Will they say everything they can to try and increase the odds of that happening? Oh yes. Will any of them vote for Hillary over (insert GOP nominee here)? Absolutely not. btw, as for being "divisive," if you listen to Trump's speeches and interviews, he's actually more a populist than a divider in my opinion. He's been extremely clever thus far and I give him props. While I don't agree with his R stances, I respect the way he's gone about this so unconventionally and successfully. and right on cue, it's been reported that Mitch McConnell has advised Republican Senators to take the position that Trump will lose badly in the general election to Hillary Clinton, and that they can feel free to run ads against Trump in their re-election bids. Yes folks, we have reached the "everything but the kitchen sink" moment in the campaign! Don't worry, come tomorrow and Tuesday, the GOP establishment will be hurling several Kohlers at Trump in a last gasp effort to de-rail his populist run. Hey Tony, remember the good ol' days a couple weeks ago when you thought the Ds would be in disarray with Bernie pushing Hillary early? |
| 2016-02-28 5:53 PM in reply to: ejshowers |
Pro 9391 Omaha, NE | Subject: RE: Bernie Sanders Thread Originally posted by ejshowers Originally posted by tuwood I know you like to think Hillary will be crushed, but would love to see some facts, data or analysis rather than just gut feel or anecdotal evidence to back that up - if you got any.... Originally posted by ChineseDemocracy Originally posted by tuwood Reince Priebus might not be sleeping too well lately. Clinton thunders to big win over Sanders in South Carolina Ruh Roh I can't quite figure Priebus out. The "establishment" is doing everything they can to keep Trump out, but he seems to kind of sit in the middle of it all and not take sides. I guess that's probably what he should be doing, but who knows. I'm not too sure anybody is very worried about Hillary. With Bernie there was/is an energized base out there, so no matter what he's hocking it doesn't matter if he gets enough energy behind him. Hillary has the auto votes from the demographics that support her based on her gender, but there's not even much energy from them. At this point anecdotes and gut is all any of us have. The data, if you will, that leads me to be more and more confident is how the elections have been going the past 8 years. Without question America as a whole has been rejecting Obamas policies because the Republicans continue to win wave after wave of elections. There is the highest percentage of Republican Governors now than in a long time. The Republicans control the House and the Senate. Yes, these things go in cycles, but I'm certain that it hasn't been cycling towards the Republicans because of the "great job" Obama's been doing. Just remember, Trump has been predicted to get crushed in every stage of the primary. His support has done nothing but grow. I haven't seen anything to suggest it will be any different in the general. On the flip side Hillary is a joke candidate in her own right. She cant even name a single accomplishment in her career. It's really Bill running for a third term, but he's not that into it. Obviously you're confident on the other side of the coin. Out of curiosity, why do you think Hillary will do so well? |
| 2016-02-28 5:55 PM in reply to: ChineseDemocracy |
Champion 7821 Brooklyn, NY | Subject: RE: Bernie Sanders Thread Originally posted by ChineseDemocracy Originally posted by jmk-brooklyn Originally posted by ChineseDemocracy Originally posted by crusevegas Originally posted by ejshowers Originally posted by tuwood I know you like to think Hillary will be crushed, but would love to see some facts, data or analysis rather than just gut feel or anecdotal evidence to back that up - if you got any.... Originally posted by ChineseDemocracy Originally posted by tuwood Reince Priebus might not be sleeping too well lately. Clinton thunders to big win over Sanders in South Carolina Ruh Roh I can't quite figure Priebus out. The "establishment" is doing everything they can to keep Trump out, but he seems to kind of sit in the middle of it all and not take sides. I guess that's probably what he should be doing, but who knows. I'm not too sure anybody is very worried about Hillary. With Bernie there was/is an energized base out there, so no matter what he's hocking it doesn't matter if he gets enough energy behind him. Hillary has the auto votes from the demographics that support her based on her gender, but there's not even much energy from them. you mean like the professionals have had about Trump over the last few months? Lol There is no doubt Trump has exceeded expectations. His speeches have been very entertaining, and remarkably powerful. His speech in Fort Worth following Christie's endorsement...I watched it with my family. He was really, really good. He is out-communicating both Rubio and Cruz. It's not even close. And remember, that's what this is all about. Who communicates the message the best. Issues (even though they should be more important) are not the most powerful vote-getter. Communication is. As long as I've been alive it has been this way in the race for POTUS. I guess so, but I don't see that message winning over much of the moderate base that both Romney and MCain were unable to win. I also see him alienating a lot of traditional republicans who might be inclined to sit out the election or switch parties rather than support him. I've seen a couple of articles recently (granted they were in some "liberal rags" #eyeroll) that talked about some GOP donors and other Republicans saying they'd sooner vote for Hillary than Trump. Trump has chosen a very divisive approach, and its certainly getting a lot of play from people who are sick of politics as usual. It's a big gamble, though. btw, as for being "divisive," if you listen to Trump's speeches and interviews, he's actually more a populist than a divider in my opinion. He's been extremely clever thus far and I give him props. While I don't agree with his R stances, I respect the way he's gone about this so unconventionally and successfully. Trumps got his own thread so I don't want to hijack Bernie's, except to say that I don't think being a populist and being divisive are mutually exclusive. There's no question that Trump has been populist, as opposed to elitist, but a lot of his rhetoric has been "us vs them"--the true Americans vs the outsiders who are ruining the country. |
| 2016-02-28 5:55 PM in reply to: ChineseDemocracy |
Champion 7821 Brooklyn, NY | Subject: RE: Bernie Sanders Thread Originally posted by ChineseDemocracy Originally posted by jmk-brooklyn Originally posted by ChineseDemocracy Originally posted by crusevegas Originally posted by ejshowers Originally posted by tuwood I know you like to think Hillary will be crushed, but would love to see some facts, data or analysis rather than just gut feel or anecdotal evidence to back that up - if you got any.... Originally posted by ChineseDemocracy Originally posted by tuwood Reince Priebus might not be sleeping too well lately. Clinton thunders to big win over Sanders in South Carolina Ruh Roh I can't quite figure Priebus out. The "establishment" is doing everything they can to keep Trump out, but he seems to kind of sit in the middle of it all and not take sides. I guess that's probably what he should be doing, but who knows. I'm not too sure anybody is very worried about Hillary. With Bernie there was/is an energized base out there, so no matter what he's hocking it doesn't matter if he gets enough energy behind him. Hillary has the auto votes from the demographics that support her based on her gender, but there's not even much energy from them. you mean like the professionals have had about Trump over the last few months? Lol There is no doubt Trump has exceeded expectations. His speeches have been very entertaining, and remarkably powerful. His speech in Fort Worth following Christie's endorsement...I watched it with my family. He was really, really good. He is out-communicating both Rubio and Cruz. It's not even close. And remember, that's what this is all about. Who communicates the message the best. Issues (even though they should be more important) are not the most powerful vote-getter. Communication is. As long as I've been alive it has been this way in the race for POTUS. I guess so, but I don't see that message winning over much of the moderate base that both Romney and MCain were unable to win. I also see him alienating a lot of traditional republicans who might be inclined to sit out the election or switch parties rather than support him. I've seen a couple of articles recently (granted they were in some "liberal rags" #eyeroll) that talked about some GOP donors and other Republicans saying they'd sooner vote for Hillary than Trump. Trump has chosen a very divisive approach, and its certainly getting a lot of play from people who are sick of politics as usual. It's a big gamble, though. btw, as for being "divisive," if you listen to Trump's speeches and interviews, he's actually more a populist than a divider in my opinion. He's been extremely clever thus far and I give him props. While I don't agree with his R stances, I respect the way he's gone about this so unconventionally and successfully. Trumps got his own thread so I don't want to hijack Bernie's, except to say that I don't think being a populist and being divisive are mutually exclusive. There's no question that Trump has been populist, as opposed to elitist, but a lot of his rhetoric has been "us vs them"--the true Americans vs the outsiders who are ruining the country. |
| 2016-02-28 6:04 PM in reply to: ChineseDemocracy |
Pro 9391 Omaha, NE | Subject: RE: Bernie Sanders Thread Originally posted by ChineseDemocracy Originally posted by jmk-brooklyn I NEVER buy the "sitting this one out" statements, period. McCain and Romney could not communicate effectively. While I have a ton of respect for John McCain, the man and the war hero...his ability to effectively communicate a message was limited. Romney, while he's probably a nice guy to have as a neighbor, appeared incredibly socially awkward in my opinion. Trump doesn't have that problem. He attracts the limelight and never shies away from it. He hasn't wilted under pressure. Right now is kind of like the run-up to the NFL draft. Teams will be lying their arses off trying to deflect true ambitions. Does the GOP establishment want Rubio in there? Heck yes. Will they say everything they can to try and increase the odds of that happening? Oh yes. Will any of them vote for Hillary over (insert GOP nominee here)? Absolutely not. btw, as for being "divisive," if you listen to Trump's speeches and interviews, he's actually more a populist than a divider in my opinion. He's been extremely clever thus far and I give him props. While I don't agree with his R stances, I respect the way he's gone about this so unconventionally and successfully. Originally posted by ChineseDemocracy I guess so, but I don't see that message winning over much of the moderate base that both Romney and MCain were unable to win. I also see him alienating a lot of traditional republicans who might be inclined to sit out the election or switch parties rather than support him. I've seen a couple of articles recently (granted they were in some "liberal rags" #eyeroll) that talked about some GOP donors and other Republicans saying they'd sooner vote for Hillary than Trump. Trump has chosen a very divisive approach, and its certainly getting a lot of play from people who are sick of politics as usual. It's a big gamble, though. Originally posted by crusevegas There is no doubt Trump has exceeded expectations. His speeches have been very entertaining, and remarkably powerful. His speech in Fort Worth following Christie's endorsement...I watched it with my family. He was really, really good. He is out-communicating both Rubio and Cruz. It's not even close. And remember, that's what this is all about. Who communicates the message the best. Issues (even though they should be more important) are not the most powerful vote-getter. Communication is. As long as I've been alive it has been this way in the race for POTUS. Originally posted by ejshowers Originally posted by tuwood I know you like to think Hillary will be crushed, but would love to see some facts, data or analysis rather than just gut feel or anecdotal evidence to back that up - if you got any.... Originally posted by ChineseDemocracy Originally posted by tuwood Reince Priebus might not be sleeping too well lately. Clinton thunders to big win over Sanders in South Carolina Ruh Roh I can't quite figure Priebus out. The "establishment" is doing everything they can to keep Trump out, but he seems to kind of sit in the middle of it all and not take sides. I guess that's probably what he should be doing, but who knows. I'm not too sure anybody is very worried about Hillary. With Bernie there was/is an energized base out there, so no matter what he's hocking it doesn't matter if he gets enough energy behind him. Hillary has the auto votes from the demographics that support her based on her gender, but there's not even much energy from them. you mean like the professionals have had about Trump over the last few months? Lol One of those rare moments where I couldn't agree more with you CD. I follow a few Conservative forums as well and with Romney and McCain there was simply no excitement. Everyone thought they were "OK", but weren't out going nuts to support them. In contrast Obama was a freaking rock star drawing huge crowds and getting massive turn out on election night with a vague and non-specific message. Now this time around we have Hillary who is "OK" with many Democrats (including yourself) but not somebody to be freaking out about. She's most certainly not going to be filling any stadiums. If anything it "seems" as though the roles are completely reversed this time around. The Republicans have their rock star with a non-specific message and the Democrats have their old rich establishment candidate that people are "OK" with. |
| 2016-02-29 8:01 AM in reply to: tuwood |
Pro 9391 Omaha, NE | Subject: RE: Bernie Sanders Thread My Facebook feed is breaking out the oldies. I hadn't seen this one before. https://www.facebook.com/UniversalFreePress/videos/1157246164321621/ The part that's most interesting to me was Friedman's comments about every society running on greed. I hadn't thought of it in that way before.
|
| 2016-02-29 9:37 AM in reply to: crusevegas |
Master 2802 Minnetonka, Minnesota Bronze member | Subject: RE: Bernie Sanders Thread Originally posted by crusevegas Originally posted by ejshowers Originally posted by tuwood I know you like to think Hillary will be crushed, but would love to see some facts, data or analysis rather than just gut feel or anecdotal evidence to back that up - if you got any.... Originally posted by ChineseDemocracy Originally posted by tuwood Reince Priebus might not be sleeping too well lately. Clinton thunders to big win over Sanders in South Carolina Ruh Roh I can't quite figure Priebus out. The "establishment" is doing everything they can to keep Trump out, but he seems to kind of sit in the middle of it all and not take sides. I guess that's probably what he should be doing, but who knows. I'm not too sure anybody is very worried about Hillary. With Bernie there was/is an energized base out there, so no matter what he's hocking it doesn't matter if he gets enough energy behind him. Hillary has the auto votes from the demographics that support her based on her gender, but there's not even much energy from them. you mean like the professionals have had about Trump over the last few months? Lol Quote or links please to these "professionals". |
| 2016-02-29 9:48 AM in reply to: ejshowers |
Pro 9391 Omaha, NE | Subject: RE: Bernie Sanders Thread Originally posted by ejshowers Originally posted by crusevegas Quote or links please to these "professionals". Originally posted by ejshowers Originally posted by tuwood I know you like to think Hillary will be crushed, but would love to see some facts, data or analysis rather than just gut feel or anecdotal evidence to back that up - if you got any.... Originally posted by ChineseDemocracy Originally posted by tuwood Reince Priebus might not be sleeping too well lately. Clinton thunders to big win over Sanders in South Carolina Ruh Roh I can't quite figure Priebus out. The "establishment" is doing everything they can to keep Trump out, but he seems to kind of sit in the middle of it all and not take sides. I guess that's probably what he should be doing, but who knows. I'm not too sure anybody is very worried about Hillary. With Bernie there was/is an energized base out there, so no matter what he's hocking it doesn't matter if he gets enough energy behind him. Hillary has the auto votes from the demographics that support her based on her gender, but there's not even much energy from them. you mean like the professionals have had about Trump over the last few months? Lol There's too many to count. Here's an article from December: 13 times Trump looked finished, and wasn't Here's a few quotes from various people. These are just from the first 3 months of his campaign, but I think you get the idea. Professional media and politicians have counted him out since the beginning and they've obviously been completely wrong. So when you hang your hat on "professionals" to convince yourself that Hillary will defeat Trump you're in the same boat as the Jeb supporters. Tim Skubick, MLive Michigan: “Donald Trump’s immigration remarks were beginning of his end.” [7/13/15] Nate Cohn, New York Times: “The beginning of the end of the Donald Trump surge.” [7/18/15] Bill Kristol, Weekly Standard: Advice to Cecilia Vega, ABC News: “Some now predicting, Martha, this could be the beginning of the end for Trump’s candidacy.” [7/19/15, This Week] Ruth Marcus, Washington Post: “And I don’t think this is the end, but I think, and this may be a little bit wishful thinking, it might be the beginning of the end.” [7/19/15, Face The Nation] Julianna Goldman, CBS: “Republican strategists tell us they think this is the beginning of the end for Trump’s candidacy, but they don’t expect him to go quietly. Still, it will take a few days to see how these latest comments are affecting him in the polls.” [7/19/15, CBS Evening News] Kevin Madden, CNN: “Look, I don’t think the apology will matter. I think the original statement that he made is going to — so many people are going to find it offensive that this is probably starting of the beginning of the end for Donald Trump.” [7/20/15] Doug Heye, Republican strategist: “Republican Strategist Doug Heye says the McCain comments could be the beginning of the end of Donald Trump’s campaign.” [7/20/15] Lindsay Graham, U.S. Senator: “He’s becoming a at a time when we need to have a serious debate about the future of the party in the country. And this is the beginning of the end of Donald Trump.” [7/21/15] Jonah Goldberg, Los Angeles Times: “The Trump squall is not over, alas. But it’s nonetheless obvious that we will someday soon look back on this as the beginning of the end of Trumpmania.” [7/22/15] Abby Huntsman, CNN: “I think this could be the beginning of the end for Donald Trump.” [8/7/15] McCay Coppins, Buzzfeed: “[T]he case could be made that last night was the beginning of the end of the Trump bubble, because it was clear on both sides, from FOX News and from Trump, that there’s no love lost anymore between those two entities. And that’s important.” [8/7/15, MSNBC] Erick Erickson, Fox News: “‘I think he has disqualified himself,’ Erickson told reporters, adding that the episode ‘probably is the beginning of the end’ for Trump.” [8/8/15] Mark Halperin, Bloomberg Politics: “So I think going forward, the establishment, the other candidates, the press, it’s kind of an iron triangle saying Trump is dead. This is the beginning of the end.” [8/9/15, Bloomberg News] Eric Zorn, Chicago Tribune: “Nevertheless, I believe we saw the beginning of the end of the Trump campaign on that stage in Cleveland” [8/9/15] Jeff Zeleny, CNN: “I’m beginning to think he may not ever be on a ballot at all because that is something his brand will not be able to tolerate, losing on the ballot. I think we’re seeing the beginning of the end.” [8/9/15] Ben Jacobs, Guardian: “GOP frontrunner’s jab at Megyn Kelly may be beginning of end.” [8/10/15] Cary Gibson, US News: “Could this be the beginning of the end of Donald Trump? Earlier this week, the Republican candidate made some, frankly, awful remarks about fellow candidate Carly Fiorina.” [9/11/15] Rand Paul, Presidential Candidate: “If Trump keeps up his sophomoric insults, particularly of women… and I think if he does that directly to a woman on stage, I think it’ll be the beginning of the end.” [9/16/15] Sara Fagen, CNBC: “[W]e will look back at last night’s debate and see it as the beginning of the end of Donald Trump’s grip atop the GOP field.” [9/17/15] Jamelle Bouie, Slate: “The good news is that this debate might mark the beginning of the end for Trump, who struggled to tackle substantive questions on foreign policy, his advisers, and what he’d actually do as president of the United States.” [9/17/15] Dana Milbank, Washington Post: “Could this be the beginning of the end of Donald Trump?” [9/17/15] Lynn Sweet, Chicago Sun-Times: “Last night was not the end of the road, but it could be the beginning of the end of the road or the beginning of the next chapter where the laws of political gravity impact [Trump].” [9/17/15] Chuck Todd, NBC: “I think this is the week we`re going to look back on and say maybe this was the beginning of the end of Trump ’16.” [9/18/15, NBC Nightly News] David Axelrod, CNN: “Q: s this what the beginning of the end looks like for Donald Trump? AXELROD: I think so…I think Donald Trump failed the test at the end of the week when he was confronted with that questioner about the president’s — who accused the president, again of being a closet Muslim.” [9/19/15] Jonathon Capehart, Washington Post: “The beginning of the end of Trump.” [9/20/15] Jennifer Rubin, Washington Post: “The beginning of the end of Trump.” [9/24/15] Arianna Huffington, Huffington Post: “The Beginning Of The End for Trump: His Sarah Palin Moment.” [9/22/15] Ron Radosh, PJ Media: “The Beginning of the End for Trump’s Presidential Campaign.” [9/27/15] Robert Tracinski, The Federalist: “The Beginning of the End for Donald Trump? Donald Trump goes from winner to whiner.” [9/25/15] Harry Enten, 538: “Was The Second Debate The Beginning Of The End For Donald Trump?…Eight national polls of GOP voters have been conducted related to the Republican race for president since the debate, and they show a couple of clear winners and losers — Fiorina won; Trump lost.” [9/24/15] Matthew Dowd, ABC News: “I know we’re going to talk about the Pope in the next section, but what his contrast is, which is I think the beginning of the end of Donald Trump, in the course of this election. And I think you can put some of it on the Francis’ effect, which is the contrast between the Pope’s modesty, humility, compassion and Donald Trump’s emphasis on his narcissism, meanness, division.” [9/27/15, ABC This Week] Igor Bobic, Huffington Post: “We might be seeing the beginning of the end of Donald Trump. After failing to outshine his more energetic opponents in the second 2016 GOP presidential debate, Trump has begun to slide in national primary polling, according to both the Real Clear Politics polling average and the HuffPost Pollster average.” [9/27/15] |
| 2016-02-29 10:03 AM in reply to: ejshowers |
| Subject: RE: Bernie Sanders Thread Originally posted by ejshowers Originally posted by crusevegas Quote or links please to these "professionals". Originally posted by ejshowers Originally posted by tuwood I know you like to think Hillary will be crushed, but would love to see some facts, data or analysis rather than just gut feel or anecdotal evidence to back that up - if you got any.... Originally posted by ChineseDemocracy Originally posted by tuwood Reince Priebus might not be sleeping too well lately. Clinton thunders to big win over Sanders in South Carolina Ruh Roh I can't quite figure Priebus out. The "establishment" is doing everything they can to keep Trump out, but he seems to kind of sit in the middle of it all and not take sides. I guess that's probably what he should be doing, but who knows. I'm not too sure anybody is very worried about Hillary. With Bernie there was/is an energized base out there, so no matter what he's hocking it doesn't matter if he gets enough energy behind him. Hillary has the auto votes from the demographics that support her based on her gender, but there's not even much energy from them. you mean like the professionals have had about Trump over the last few months? Lol
i could be mistaken, but wasn't it you who informed me about this thing,,,,, I believe you called it Google? |
| 2016-02-29 10:24 AM in reply to: crusevegas |
Master 2802 Minnetonka, Minnesota Bronze member | Subject: RE: Bernie Sanders Thread Originally posted by crusevegas Originally posted by ejshowers Originally posted by crusevegas Quote or links please to these "professionals". Originally posted by ejshowers Originally posted by tuwood I know you like to think Hillary will be crushed, but would love to see some facts, data or analysis rather than just gut feel or anecdotal evidence to back that up - if you got any.... Originally posted by ChineseDemocracy Originally posted by tuwood Reince Priebus might not be sleeping too well lately. Clinton thunders to big win over Sanders in South Carolina Ruh Roh I can't quite figure Priebus out. The "establishment" is doing everything they can to keep Trump out, but he seems to kind of sit in the middle of it all and not take sides. I guess that's probably what he should be doing, but who knows. I'm not too sure anybody is very worried about Hillary. With Bernie there was/is an energized base out there, so no matter what he's hocking it doesn't matter if he gets enough energy behind him. Hillary has the auto votes from the demographics that support her based on her gender, but there's not even much energy from them. you mean like the professionals have had about Trump over the last few months? Lol
i could be mistaken, but wasn't it you who informed me about this thing,,,,, I believe you called it Google? I tried the Google before ever posting and couldn't find much, and what I did find seemed was weak, slanted, or from a not-very-credible source in my opinion. I was hoping that someone who posted that "professionals" had reported showing how Trump will beat Hillary might shed (actual) light. Or maybe I was mistaken on what you really meant when you wrote "you mean like the professionals have had about Trump over the last few months? Lol"? |
| 2016-02-29 10:26 AM in reply to: tuwood |
Master 2802 Minnetonka, Minnesota Bronze member | Subject: RE: Bernie Sanders Thread Originally posted by tuwood Originally posted by ejshowers Originally posted by crusevegas Quote or links please to these "professionals". Originally posted by ejshowers Originally posted by tuwood I know you like to think Hillary will be crushed, but would love to see some facts, data or analysis rather than just gut feel or anecdotal evidence to back that up - if you got any.... Originally posted by ChineseDemocracy Originally posted by tuwood Reince Priebus might not be sleeping too well lately. Clinton thunders to big win over Sanders in South Carolina Ruh Roh I can't quite figure Priebus out. The "establishment" is doing everything they can to keep Trump out, but he seems to kind of sit in the middle of it all and not take sides. I guess that's probably what he should be doing, but who knows. I'm not too sure anybody is very worried about Hillary. With Bernie there was/is an energized base out there, so no matter what he's hocking it doesn't matter if he gets enough energy behind him. Hillary has the auto votes from the demographics that support her based on her gender, but there's not even much energy from them. you mean like the professionals have had about Trump over the last few months? Lol There's too many to count. Here's an article from December: 13 times Trump looked finished, and wasn't Here's a few quotes from various people. These are just from the first 3 months of his campaign, but I think you get the idea. Professional media and politicians have counted him out since the beginning and they've obviously been completely wrong. So when you hang your hat on "professionals" to convince yourself that Hillary will defeat Trump you're in the same boat as the Jeb supporters. Tim Skubick, MLive Michigan: “Donald Trump’s immigration remarks were beginning of his end.” [7/13/15] Nate Cohn, New York Times: “The beginning of the end of the Donald Trump surge.” [7/18/15] Bill Kristol, Weekly Standard: Advice to Cecilia Vega, ABC News: “Some now predicting, Martha, this could be the beginning of the end for Trump’s candidacy.” [7/19/15, This Week] Ruth Marcus, Washington Post: “And I don’t think this is the end, but I think, and this may be a little bit wishful thinking, it might be the beginning of the end.” [7/19/15, Face The Nation] Julianna Goldman, CBS: “Republican strategists tell us they think this is the beginning of the end for Trump’s candidacy, but they don’t expect him to go quietly. Still, it will take a few days to see how these latest comments are affecting him in the polls.” [7/19/15, CBS Evening News] Kevin Madden, CNN: “Look, I don’t think the apology will matter. I think the original statement that he made is going to — so many people are going to find it offensive that this is probably starting of the beginning of the end for Donald Trump.” [7/20/15] Doug Heye, Republican strategist: “Republican Strategist Doug Heye says the McCain comments could be the beginning of the end of Donald Trump’s campaign.” [7/20/15] Lindsay Graham, U.S. Senator: “He’s becoming a at a time when we need to have a serious debate about the future of the party in the country. And this is the beginning of the end of Donald Trump.” [7/21/15] Jonah Goldberg, Los Angeles Times: “The Trump squall is not over, alas. But it’s nonetheless obvious that we will someday soon look back on this as the beginning of the end of Trumpmania.” [7/22/15] Abby Huntsman, CNN: “I think this could be the beginning of the end for Donald Trump.” [8/7/15] McCay Coppins, Buzzfeed: “[T]he case could be made that last night was the beginning of the end of the Trump bubble, because it was clear on both sides, from FOX News and from Trump, that there’s no love lost anymore between those two entities. And that’s important.” [8/7/15, MSNBC] Erick Erickson, Fox News: “‘I think he has disqualified himself,’ Erickson told reporters, adding that the episode ‘probably is the beginning of the end’ for Trump.” [8/8/15] Mark Halperin, Bloomberg Politics: “So I think going forward, the establishment, the other candidates, the press, it’s kind of an iron triangle saying Trump is dead. This is the beginning of the end.” [8/9/15, Bloomberg News] Eric Zorn, Chicago Tribune: “Nevertheless, I believe we saw the beginning of the end of the Trump campaign on that stage in Cleveland” [8/9/15] Jeff Zeleny, CNN: “I’m beginning to think he may not ever be on a ballot at all because that is something his brand will not be able to tolerate, losing on the ballot. I think we’re seeing the beginning of the end.” [8/9/15] Ben Jacobs, Guardian: “GOP frontrunner’s jab at Megyn Kelly may be beginning of end.” [8/10/15] Cary Gibson, US News: “Could this be the beginning of the end of Donald Trump? Earlier this week, the Republican candidate made some, frankly, awful remarks about fellow candidate Carly Fiorina.” [9/11/15] Rand Paul, Presidential Candidate: “If Trump keeps up his sophomoric insults, particularly of women… and I think if he does that directly to a woman on stage, I think it’ll be the beginning of the end.” [9/16/15] Sara Fagen, CNBC: “[W]e will look back at last night’s debate and see it as the beginning of the end of Donald Trump’s grip atop the GOP field.” [9/17/15] Jamelle Bouie, Slate: “The good news is that this debate might mark the beginning of the end for Trump, who struggled to tackle substantive questions on foreign policy, his advisers, and what he’d actually do as president of the United States.” [9/17/15] Dana Milbank, Washington Post: “Could this be the beginning of the end of Donald Trump?” [9/17/15] Lynn Sweet, Chicago Sun-Times: “Last night was not the end of the road, but it could be the beginning of the end of the road or the beginning of the next chapter where the laws of political gravity impact [Trump].” [9/17/15] Chuck Todd, NBC: “I think this is the week we`re going to look back on and say maybe this was the beginning of the end of Trump ’16.” [9/18/15, NBC Nightly News] David Axelrod, CNN: “Q: s this what the beginning of the end looks like for Donald Trump? AXELROD: I think so…I think Donald Trump failed the test at the end of the week when he was confronted with that questioner about the president’s — who accused the president, again of being a closet Muslim.” [9/19/15] Jonathon Capehart, Washington Post: “The beginning of the end of Trump.” [9/20/15] Jennifer Rubin, Washington Post: “The beginning of the end of Trump.” [9/24/15] Arianna Huffington, Huffington Post: “The Beginning Of The End for Trump: His Sarah Palin Moment.” [9/22/15] Ron Radosh, PJ Media: “The Beginning of the End for Trump’s Presidential Campaign.” [9/27/15] Robert Tracinski, The Federalist: “The Beginning of the End for Donald Trump? Donald Trump goes from winner to whiner.” [9/25/15] Harry Enten, 538: “Was The Second Debate The Beginning Of The End For Donald Trump?…Eight national polls of GOP voters have been conducted related to the Republican race for president since the debate, and they show a couple of clear winners and losers — Fiorina won; Trump lost.” [9/24/15] Matthew Dowd, ABC News: “I know we’re going to talk about the Pope in the next section, but what his contrast is, which is I think the beginning of the end of Donald Trump, in the course of this election. And I think you can put some of it on the Francis’ effect, which is the contrast between the Pope’s modesty, humility, compassion and Donald Trump’s emphasis on his narcissism, meanness, division.” [9/27/15, ABC This Week] Igor Bobic, Huffington Post: “We might be seeing the beginning of the end of Donald Trump. After failing to outshine his more energetic opponents in the second 2016 GOP presidential debate, Trump has begun to slide in national primary polling, according to both the Real Clear Politics polling average and the HuffPost Pollster average.” [9/27/15] Nice list, but I was talking about Hillary v Trump, not anything to do with the R primaries. Sorry for hijacking the Bernie thread. Should move this to the Trump thread. |
| 2016-02-29 10:29 AM in reply to: ejshowers |
Pro 9391 Omaha, NE | Subject: RE: Bernie Sanders Thread Originally posted by ejshowers Originally posted by crusevegas I tried the Google before ever posting and couldn't find much, and what I did find seemed was weak, slanted, or from a not-very-credible source in my opinion. I was hoping that someone who posted that "professionals" had reported showing how Trump will beat Hillary might shed (actual) light. Or maybe I was mistaken on what you really meant when you wrote "you mean like the professionals have had about Trump over the last few months? Lol"? Originally posted by ejshowers Originally posted by crusevegas Quote or links please to these "professionals". Originally posted by ejshowers Originally posted by tuwood I know you like to think Hillary will be crushed, but would love to see some facts, data or analysis rather than just gut feel or anecdotal evidence to back that up - if you got any.... Originally posted by ChineseDemocracy Originally posted by tuwood Reince Priebus might not be sleeping too well lately. Clinton thunders to big win over Sanders in South Carolina Ruh Roh I can't quite figure Priebus out. The "establishment" is doing everything they can to keep Trump out, but he seems to kind of sit in the middle of it all and not take sides. I guess that's probably what he should be doing, but who knows. I'm not too sure anybody is very worried about Hillary. With Bernie there was/is an energized base out there, so no matter what he's hocking it doesn't matter if he gets enough energy behind him. Hillary has the auto votes from the demographics that support her based on her gender, but there's not even much energy from them. you mean like the professionals have had about Trump over the last few months? Lol
i could be mistaken, but wasn't it you who informed me about this thing,,,,, I believe you called it Google? I think it's a safe bet that the "professional politicians" and "professional media" do not want Trump in office so it will be very hard to find anyone to tout as such. Common sense and history tells us that whoever has the populist support (from either party) will be the ultimate victor. Hillary does not have a populist message and she does not have energetic support. (still not even sure what her message is, other than "I'm a woman")
|
| 2016-02-29 10:31 AM in reply to: ejshowers |
Pro 9391 Omaha, NE | Subject: RE: Bernie Sanders Thread Originally posted by ejshowers Originally posted by tuwood Nice list, but I was talking about Hillary v Trump, not anything to do with the R primaries. Sorry for hijacking the Bernie thread. Should move this to the Trump thread. I knew you were, but the point I was trying to make is that you can't put much weight into the stuff that's out there now touting that Trump can't beat Hillary. You are correct, that the "professionals" currently predict Hillary would beat him, so my counter was. "how'd that work out for the Republicans". |
|
|
|
|
| |||
| |||
| Yay, a gun thread Pages: 1 2 | ||
| |||
|
View profile
Add to friends
Go to training log
Go to race log
Send a message
View album
CONNECT WITH FACEBOOK