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Obama considering an executive order on gun control (Page 7)
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 2013-01-11 9:18 PM in reply to: #4574693 |
Sneaky Slow  8694       Herndon, VA, |  Subject: RE: Obama considering an executive order on gun controlpowerman - 2013-01-11 9:41 PM trinnas - 2013-01-11 7:13 PM powerman - 2013-01-11 8:58 PM Big Appa - 2013-01-11 12:13 PM crusevegas - 2013-01-11 10:03 AM BA, you said the right is doing nothing and I disagree with your assessment, crime in the USA has been steadily dropping since 1992 and gun ownership and people carrying firearms is up. Countries where they have confiscated firearms show an increase in violent crime after the citizens are disarmed. Here is some info that I have tried to find and have not been able to come up with and I think it's a big failure on those investigating the "problem" and the media. What medications were they on the years prior to the incident and what was their exposure to firearms in their childhood? In addition I believe those who have taken the life of an animal, skinned it, removed it's intestines and other organs and consumed it as food have a higher respect for life than those that think meat is just something that comes from the grocery store. To throw meat away is to disrespect the life of that animal, be it a wild animal or a domestic one. That does not address my post of what causes the crime in the first place and that does not improve our nation. I am all for the 2A and for open carry but I don't see that as a valid lasting deterrent because there is still crime. We need to address what is causing the crime in the first place and that is what we as a nation are failing at. We are looking at the end result of no guns or more guns but let’s fix the poverty and broken families in a way that makes the left and right happy. I know this is a farfetched thing to hope for but if we are truly an evolved nation I think if we try we can improve. If we do we won't have to worry about the left trying to take away our firearms. So then BA, what is your measure for success? Zero crime? I'm being serious. The stats show that violent crimes have dropped 50% in 20 years. We must be doing something right. I'm not going to say it is because we have more guns... but it is absolutely false that gun control as been a factor because we have more guns and less control than ever. So if we could identifiy what those things are and focus our attention on them maybe we could drop in another 50%. Which is great.... but at the end of the day, there is just going to be those that will not follow the rules. And they will get what they want at the expense of another. By the stats, we are actually doing better than other countries. Our violent crime rates are lower. I'm just not sure if we have got as good as we can, or if there is more room for improvement. One of the huge factors is simply demographics. The cohort of people who generally commit violent crimes, young males, has grown smaller as successive generations after the baby boom have gotten smaller. That's interesting. In a similar vein... http://www.freakonomics.com/books/freakonomics/chapter-excerpts/chapter-4/ |
| 2013-01-11 9:30 PM in reply to: #4574724 |
Elite 6387 | Subject: RE: Obama considering an executive order on gun control tealeaf - 2013-01-11 8:18 PM In a similar vein... http://www.freakonomics.com/books/freakonomics/chapter-excerpts/chapter-4/ That I do not doubt. Obviously, we do not have to believe that "abortions" caused it... but it does not take a rocket scientist to figure out not having a child when you are not able to raise it properly is good thing. Of course, abortion isn't the ONLY way to do that. Curious if you could find the same data prevalent to birth control... or even in years to come the "morning after" pill. |
| 2013-01-11 9:37 PM in reply to: #4574739 |
Elite 4435 | Subject: RE: Obama considering an executive order on gun control powerman - 2013-01-12 2:30 PM education plays a huge part it's not rocket science how not to have kids. Also religion and culture play a part here tootealeaf - 2013-01-11 8:18 PM In a similar vein... http://www.freakonomics.com/books/freakonomics/chapter-excerpts/chapter-4/ That I do not doubt. Obviously, we do not have to believe that "abortions" caused it... but it does not take a rocket scientist to figure out not having a child when you are not able to raise it properly is good thing. Of course, abortion isn't the ONLY way to do that. Curious if you could find the same data prevalent to birth control... or even in years to come the "morning after" pill. |
| 2013-01-12 12:31 AM in reply to: #4574136 |
Pro 15655 | Subject: RE: Obama considering an executive order on gun control Big Appa - 2013-01-11 1:16 PM Left Brain - 2013-01-11 11:07 AM Big Appa - 2013-01-11 11:28 AM Left Brain - 2013-01-11 8:59 AM Agree.....I was just curious what the numbers were. The thing is, we have REALLY good data on deaths in this country. And the UCR report on crime is done with a great deal of diligence, so the numbers are good there too. As the debate over gun control goes on, it's good to have these numbers......because the gun control crowd will play to emotion constantly.....it's really all they have. There is no data that backs up their call for more gun control.....in fact, all of the hard data, and the trend in armed criminal acts, shows just the opposite of what the gun control crowd wants people to believe. The entire country had pretty strict gun-control laws in the early 90's....and the majority of states did not allow CCW as well. Now almost every state allows CCW, gun-control laws have been loosened everywhere compared to what it was, and we have nearly 50% fewer homicides and violent crimes, with the number of these crimes dropping every year. This is not emotion, this is a fact. We need to help fix the problem that causes violence and so far we (the right) haven’t done much to help it. So far all we do is complain about what the left is trying to do and saying it won't work or will cause higher taxes. If we really want a better country along with our rights like the 2A both sides need to come together to find something that will be a starting point to help the social issues that contribute to violent crime. I'm all in as soon as the other side gives up the irrational idea that more gun control will equal less death.......it's absolutely wrong and I'm not wasting a minute of my time helping anything that has to do with taking guns away. This sounds like my Kids. I tell my girl she needs to be nicer to her brother and she says he's never nice to me. Bro, I deal with people with guns for a living. I'm helping all I can to make it safer for everyone.....you have no idea how complex the problem is when you start throwing in the court system, mental health system, law enforcement, etc. The bottom line is that gun ownership is way up, and violent crime is way down. Go figure. There doesn't need to be another "gun control" law on the books in any manner......it didn't work the last time it was tried, and it won't change anything this time around. The Clinton administration, the last to try it, admitted it didn't make a difference. It's good that you are a law abiding citizen when it comes to gun ownership.....like you're/we're supposed to be. You/we aren't the problem.....the problem is the PEOPLE who don't obey the law......passing more gun laws (which is what we are faced with and what this discussion is about) won't make them more law abiding. That's just dumb. Still, you're right, your kids need to be nicer to each other. Edited by Left Brain 2013-01-12 1:00 AM |
| 2013-01-12 9:31 AM in reply to: #4574661 |
Pro 3906 St Charles, IL | Subject: RE: Obama considering an executive order on gun control powerman - 2013-01-11 7:58 PM Big Appa - 2013-01-11 12:13 PM crusevegas - 2013-01-11 10:03 AM BA, you said the right is doing nothing and I disagree with your assessment, crime in the USA has been steadily dropping since 1992 and gun ownership and people carrying firearms is up. Countries where they have confiscated firearms show an increase in violent crime after the citizens are disarmed. Here is some info that I have tried to find and have not been able to come up with and I think it's a big failure on those investigating the "problem" and the media. What medications were they on the years prior to the incident and what was their exposure to firearms in their childhood? In addition I believe those who have taken the life of an animal, skinned it, removed it's intestines and other organs and consumed it as food have a higher respect for life than those that think meat is just something that comes from the grocery store. To throw meat away is to disrespect the life of that animal, be it a wild animal or a domestic one. That does not address my post of what causes the crime in the first place and that does not improve our nation. I am all for the 2A and for open carry but I don't see that as a valid lasting deterrent because there is still crime. We need to address what is causing the crime in the first place and that is what we as a nation are failing at. We are looking at the end result of no guns or more guns but let’s fix the poverty and broken families in a way that makes the left and right happy. I know this is a farfetched thing to hope for but if we are truly an evolved nation I think if we try we can improve. If we do we won't have to worry about the left trying to take away our firearms. So then BA, what is your measure for success? Zero crime? I'm being serious. The stats show that violent crimes have dropped 50% in 20 years. We must be doing something right. I'm not going to say it is because we have more guns... but it is absolutely false that gun control as been a factor because we have more guns and less control than ever. So if we could identifiy what those things are and focus our attention on them maybe we could drop in another 50%. Which is great.... but at the end of the day, there is just going to be those that will not follow the rules. And they will get what they want at the expense of another. By the stats, we are actually doing better than other countries. Our violent crime rates are lower. I'm just not sure if we have got as good as we can, or if there is more room for improvement. What did we do? Well, for one, we stopped using leaded gasoline. |
| 2013-01-12 9:51 AM in reply to: #4574724 |
Pro 3906 St Charles, IL | Subject: RE: Obama considering an executive order on gun control tealeaf - 2013-01-11 9:18 PM powerman - 2013-01-11 9:41 PM trinnas - 2013-01-11 7:13 PM powerman - 2013-01-11 8:58 PM Big Appa - 2013-01-11 12:13 PM crusevegas - 2013-01-11 10:03 AM BA, you said the right is doing nothing and I disagree with your assessment, crime in the USA has been steadily dropping since 1992 and gun ownership and people carrying firearms is up. Countries where they have confiscated firearms show an increase in violent crime after the citizens are disarmed. Here is some info that I have tried to find and have not been able to come up with and I think it's a big failure on those investigating the "problem" and the media. What medications were they on the years prior to the incident and what was their exposure to firearms in their childhood? In addition I believe those who have taken the life of an animal, skinned it, removed it's intestines and other organs and consumed it as food have a higher respect for life than those that think meat is just something that comes from the grocery store. To throw meat away is to disrespect the life of that animal, be it a wild animal or a domestic one. That does not address my post of what causes the crime in the first place and that does not improve our nation. I am all for the 2A and for open carry but I don't see that as a valid lasting deterrent because there is still crime. We need to address what is causing the crime in the first place and that is what we as a nation are failing at. We are looking at the end result of no guns or more guns but let’s fix the poverty and broken families in a way that makes the left and right happy. I know this is a farfetched thing to hope for but if we are truly an evolved nation I think if we try we can improve. If we do we won't have to worry about the left trying to take away our firearms. So then BA, what is your measure for success? Zero crime? I'm being serious. The stats show that violent crimes have dropped 50% in 20 years. We must be doing something right. I'm not going to say it is because we have more guns... but it is absolutely false that gun control as been a factor because we have more guns and less control than ever. So if we could identifiy what those things are and focus our attention on them maybe we could drop in another 50%. Which is great.... but at the end of the day, there is just going to be those that will not follow the rules. And they will get what they want at the expense of another. By the stats, we are actually doing better than other countries. Our violent crime rates are lower. I'm just not sure if we have got as good as we can, or if there is more room for improvement. One of the huge factors is simply demographics. The cohort of people who generally commit violent crimes, young males, has grown smaller as successive generations after the baby boom have gotten smaller. That's interesting. In a similar vein... http://www.freakonomics.com/books/freakonomics/chapter-excerpts/chapter-4/ And not the whole story. See studies on lead exposure, and how that matches up to both birth rates *and* violent crime rates. On all levels in the US, on a state by state basis ( as different states phased out leaded gas sooner than others ), and internationally in other countries. See the MJ article, where in the teen pregnancy/birth rate also matches the violent crime curve lag. So Roe v. Wade was actually probably more coincidental with the decline than causal, and the growth and decline is actually another effect of the addition and removal of lead to gasoline. http://www.motherjones.com/environment/2013/01/lead-crime-link-gasoline During the '70s and '80s, the introduction of the catalytic converter, combined with increasingly stringent Environmental Protection Agency rules, steadily reduced the amount of leaded gasoline used in America, but Reyes discovered that this reduction wasn't uniform. In fact, use of leaded gasoline varied widely among states, and this gave Reyes the opening she needed. If childhood lead exposure really did produce criminal behavior in adults, you'd expect that in states where consumption of leaded gasoline declined slowly, crime would decline slowly too. Conversely, in states where it declined quickly, crime would decline quickly. And that's exactly what she found. http://www.plosmedicine.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pmed.0050101 ConclusionsPrenatal and postnatal blood lead concentrations are associated with higher rates of total arrests and/or arrests for offenses involving violence. This is the first prospective study to demonstrate an association between developmental exposure to lead and adult criminal behavior. http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0160412012000566 AbstractWe evaluate air Pb emissions and latent aggravated assault behavior at the scale of the city. We accomplish this by regressing annual Federal Bureau of Investigation aggravated assault rate records against the rise and fall of annual vehicle Pb emissions in Chicago (Illinois), Indianapolis (Indiana), Minneapolis (Minnesota), San Diego (California), Atlanta (Georgia), and New Orleans (Louisiana). Other things held equal, a 1% increase in tonnages of air Pb released 22 years prior raises the present period aggravated assault rate by 0.46% (95% CI, 0.28 to 0.64). Overall our model explains 90% of the variation in aggravated assault across the cities examined. In the case of New Orleans, 85% of temporal variation in the aggravated assault rate is explained by the annual rise and fall of air Pb (total = 10,179 metric tons) released on the population of New Orleans 22 years earlier. For every metric ton of Pb released 22 years prior, a latent increase of 1.59 (95% CI, 1.36 to 1.83, p < 0.001) aggravated assaults per 100,000 were reported. Vehicles consuming fuel containing Pb additives contributed much larger quantities of Pb dust than generally recognized. Our findings along with others predict that prevention of children's lead exposure from lead dust now will realize numerous societal benefits two decades into the future, including lower rates of aggravated assault.
So, who knew, but it looks to me like the EPA has been more effective at reducing violent crime rates than another other agency. |
| 2013-01-14 2:25 PM in reply to: #4570405 |
Champion 7347 SRQ, FL | Subject: RE: Obama considering an executive order on gun control Getting this back on track... "My understanding is the vice president's going to provide a range of steps that we can take to reduce gun violence," said Obama. "Some of them will require legislation, some of them I can accomplish through executive action. Sounding less and less like hypotheticals now. |
| 2013-01-14 3:04 PM in reply to: #4577963 |
| Subject: RE: Obama considering an executive order on gun control TriRSquared - 2013-01-14 12:25 PM Getting this back on track... "My understanding is the vice president's going to provide a range of steps that we can take to reduce gun violence," said Obama. "Some of them will require legislation, some of them I can accomplish through executive action. Sounding less and less like hypotheticals now. This is a matter of National Security and we must act and act now! If trampling on the rights of 300,000,000 Law Abiding Citizens saves just one life, it will be worth it. |
| 2013-01-14 3:40 PM in reply to: #4578092 |
Pro 9391 Omaha, NE | Subject: RE: Obama considering an executive order on gun control crusevegas - 2013-01-14 3:04 PM TriRSquared - 2013-01-14 12:25 PM Getting this back on track... "My understanding is the vice president's going to provide a range of steps that we can take to reduce gun violence," said Obama. "Some of them will require legislation, some of them I can accomplish through executive action. Sounding less and less like hypotheticals now. This is a matter of National Security and we must act and act now! If trampling on the rights of 300,000,000 Law Abiding Citizens saves just one life, it will be worth it. No, I believe the angle they're using is that it's a "public health issue". All these crazy guns and high capacity magazines roaming the streets. |
| 2013-01-14 3:47 PM in reply to: #4578137 |
| Subject: RE: Obama considering an executive order on gun control tuwood - 2013-01-14 1:40 PM crusevegas - 2013-01-14 3:04 PM
This is a matter of National Security and we must act and act now! If trampling on the rights of 300,000,000 Law Abiding Citizens saves just one life, it will be worth it. No, I believe the angle they're using is that it's a "public health issue". All these crazy guns and high capacity magazines roaming the streets. Not according to this.
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| 2013-01-14 3:54 PM in reply to: #4571409 |
Veteran 667 asheville, nc | Subject: RE: Obama considering an executive order on gun control tuwood - 2013-01-10 8:28 AM I seem to recall several Obama supporters going on and on last year before the election about how Obama doesn't want to take away our guns. lol I really wanted to avoid entering this "conversation." But I'm tired of this rhetoric and fear mongering about "King Obama" taking away anyone's guns. Removing automatic weapons? Yes. High capacity magazines enabling body counts to be significantly higher? Yes. Enhanced background checks? Yes. Military style assault weapons that even military generals agree should not be in the hands of civilians? Yes. removing all firearms from all citizens? Never once has he said that. If you want to have a real, intelligent, adult level debate use actual facts. Don't make them up. |
| 2013-01-14 3:54 PM in reply to: #4570405 |
| Austin, Texas or Jupiter, Florida | Subject: RE: Obama considering an executive order on gun control Can't find the thread for this so I guess I'll post it here. The White House has rejected the Texas secession bid. Oh well, back to work bored Texans. Haha http://www.foxnews.com/us/2013/01/14/white-house-responds-to-secession-petition-says-texas-doesnt-have-right-to/ |
| 2013-01-14 3:56 PM in reply to: #4571613 |
Veteran 667 asheville, nc | Subject: RE: Obama considering an executive order on gun control Big Appa - 2013-01-10 10:01 AM Akrakowski - 2013-01-10 6:52 AM pga_mike - 2013-01-10 9:22 AM To equate the current gun debate to Nazi Germany is a distraction and a joke. Obama, and most rational Americans, are not calling for a ban on private gun ownership. We as Americans are absolutely allowed to determine limits on individual Constitutional rights (when does free speech become slander? when does freedom of the press become libelous? when does your right to the pursuit of happiness become a threat to the greater good and must be limited?) This is not un-American - it is the beauty of our democracy. I hope we can agree that as Americans, we have a Constitutional and moral right to debate where to draw the line as to which types of arms are appropriate for citizens to own. Even the NRA isn't calling for the 1934 law prohibiting ownership of fully automatic weapons to be overturned, nor are we saying our "right" to own arms like bazookas, tanks, nukes, etc. is being "infringed." As technology advances in the lethality of guns as well as the abiltity to make them safer for owners, we absolutely must be able to debate that. Never forget. "The most foolish mistake we could possibly make would be to permit the conquered Eastern peoples to have arms. History teaches that all conquerors who have allowed their subject races to carry arms have prepared their own downfall by doing so. Indeed I would go so far as to say that the underdog is a sine qua non for the overthrow of any sovereignty. So let's not have any native militia or police. German troops alone will bear the sole responsibility for the maintenance of law and order." Note: I am in no way condemning our POTUS as a Nazi. The perspective and possibility of evil on a much larger scale is dismissed in our country as impossible. But we are young. I agree with you but in no way is a Simi auto rifle near a bazooka or tank and IMO should not be banned. I think they might be able to pass a nationwide law making everyone more like CA with stricter back ground checks, 10 day wait, and 10 round magazine limit. I do not really like the wait or limit but I understand it. Why? When is anyone in a hurry to kill a lot of things as quickly as possibly, legally? |
| 2013-01-14 3:57 PM in reply to: #4571644 |
Veteran 667 asheville, nc | Subject: RE: Obama considering an executive order on gun control Akrakowski - 2013-01-10 10:09 AM Gotta throw up a link to the classic Simpson's scene of Homer going to buy a handgun: http://lybio.net/tag/im-mad-now/Store owner: "The law requires a five day waiting period. We've got to run a background check" Homer: "Five days? But I'm mad now!" This is one of the single greatest TV episodes of all time, of any show. |
| 2013-01-14 4:11 PM in reply to: #4578168 |
| New user 900 , | Subject: RE: Obama considering an executive order on gun control RookieIM - 2013-01-14 3:54 PM tuwood - 2013-01-10 8:28 AM I seem to recall several Obama supporters going on and on last year before the election about how Obama doesn't want to take away our guns. lol I really wanted to avoid entering this "conversation." But I'm tired of this rhetoric and fear mongering about "King Obama" taking away anyone's guns. Removing automatic weapons? Yes. High capacity magazines enabling body counts to be significantly higher? Yes. Enhanced background checks? Yes. Military style assault weapons that even military generals agree should not be in the hands of civilians? Yes. removing all firearms from all citizens? Never once has he said that. If you want to have a real, intelligent, adult level debate use actual facts. Don't make them up. Or just ignore them as the left does when it comes to crime and gun stats. |
| 2013-01-14 4:17 PM in reply to: #4578168 |
Expert 3126 Boise, ID | Subject: RE: Obama considering an executive order on gun control RookieIM - 2013-01-14 2:54 PM tuwood - 2013-01-10 8:28 AM I seem to recall several Obama supporters going on and on last year before the election about how Obama doesn't want to take away our guns. lol I really wanted to avoid entering this "conversation." But I'm tired of this rhetoric and fear mongering about "King Obama" taking away anyone's guns. Removing automatic weapons? Yes. High capacity magazines enabling body counts to be significantly higher? Yes. Enhanced background checks? Yes. Military style assault weapons that even military generals agree should not be in the hands of civilians? Yes. removing all firearms from all citizens? Never once has he said that. If you want to have a real, intelligent, adult level debate use actual facts. Don't make them up. So if all I have is black scary looking guns they would all be "removed"? Sounds like removing all firearms to me... |
| 2013-01-14 4:24 PM in reply to: #4578168 |
| Subject: RE: Obama considering an executive order on gun control RookieIM - 2013-01-14 1:54 PM tuwood - 2013-01-10 8:28 AM I seem to recall several Obama supporters going on and on last year before the election about how Obama doesn't want to take away our guns. lol I really wanted to avoid entering this "conversation." But I'm tired of this rhetoric and fear mongering about "King Obama" taking away anyone's guns. Removing automatic weapons? Yes. High capacity magazines enabling body counts to be significantly higher? Yes. Enhanced background checks? Yes. Military style assault weapons that even military generals agree should not be in the hands of civilians? Yes. removing all firearms from all citizens? Never once has he said that. If you want to have a real, intelligent, adult level debate use actual facts. Don't make them up. Did you read Diane Feinstein's Bill? Do you know what an automatic weapon is? How many people are killed in the USA by "assault" weapons/rifles? If 1 general in the armed services says we should do something we should just do it because he said so? Who on here said that King Obama is going to remove all firearms. You know the more I look back at your post, it looks like you are the one making krap up. I'd be more than happy to discuss the merits or lack of, on any proposal that has been floated or what you think is a good idea. |
| 2013-01-14 4:38 PM in reply to: #4578168 |
Champion 7347 SRQ, FL | Subject: RE: Obama considering an executive order on gun control RookieIM - 2013-01-14 4:54 PM tuwood - 2013-01-10 8:28 AM I seem to recall several Obama supporters going on and on last year before the election about how Obama doesn't want to take away our guns. lol I really wanted to avoid entering this "conversation." But I'm tired of this rhetoric and fear mongering about "King Obama" taking away anyone's guns. Removing automatic weapons? Yes. High capacity magazines enabling body counts to be significantly higher? Yes. Enhanced background checks? Yes. Military style assault weapons that even military generals agree should not be in the hands of civilians? Yes. removing all firearms from all citizens? Never once has he said that. If you want to have a real, intelligent, adult level debate use actual facts. Don't make them up. Automatic weapons are a non-issue. Already illegal in 99.99% of cases. High capacity magazines. The SH shooter changes magazines several times, sometimes only firing 15 rounds. It takes less than 2 seconds to change magazines. Would not have changed a thing. Enhanced BG checks? I'm all for it. "Military style assault weapons" Those are full auto. See first point above.
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| 2013-01-14 4:44 PM in reply to: #4578177 |
Champion 7821 Brooklyn, NY | Subject: RE: Obama considering an executive order on gun control RookieIM - 2013-01-14 3:57 PM Akrakowski - 2013-01-10 10:09 AM Gotta throw up a link to the classic Simpson's scene of Homer going to buy a handgun: http://lybio.net/tag/im-mad-now/Store owner: "The law requires a five day waiting period. We've got to run a background check" Homer: "Five days? But I'm mad now!" This is one of the single greatest TV episodes of all time, of any show. LENNY: "Assault weapons have gotten a lot of bad press lately, but they're manufactured for a reason: to take out today's modern super animals, such as the flying squirrel, and the electric eel." |
| 2013-01-14 4:46 PM in reply to: #4578268 |
Sensei Sin City | Subject: RE: Obama considering an executive order on gun control TriRSquared - 2013-01-14 2:38 PM RookieIM - 2013-01-14 4:54 PM tuwood - 2013-01-10 8:28 AM I seem to recall several Obama supporters going on and on last year before the election about how Obama doesn't want to take away our guns. lol I really wanted to avoid entering this "conversation." But I'm tired of this rhetoric and fear mongering about "King Obama" taking away anyone's guns. Removing automatic weapons? Yes. High capacity magazines enabling body counts to be significantly higher? Yes. Enhanced background checks? Yes. Military style assault weapons that even military generals agree should not be in the hands of civilians? Yes. removing all firearms from all citizens? Never once has he said that. If you want to have a real, intelligent, adult level debate use actual facts. Don't make them up. Automatic weapons are a non-issue. Already illegal in 99.99% of cases. High capacity magazines. The SH shooter changes magazines several times, sometimes only firing 15 rounds. It takes less than 2 seconds to change magazines. Would not have changed a thing. Enhanced BG checks? I'm all for it. "Military style assault weapons" Those are full auto. See first point above.
I'm wondering when the last time an automatic weapon was actually used in a publicized crime? I think it was the LA shootout. |
| 2013-01-14 5:02 PM in reply to: #4578289 |
Sneaky Slow 8694 Herndon, VA, | Subject: RE: Obama considering an executive order on gun control Kido - 2013-01-14 5:46 PM TriRSquared - 2013-01-14 2:38 PM Automatic weapons are a non-issue. Already illegal in 99.99% of cases. I'm wondering when the last time an automatic weapon was actually used in a publicized crime? I think it was the LA shootout. Clearly, making certain types guns of illegal has no impact on their likelihood to be used by criminals. |
| 2013-01-14 5:31 PM in reply to: #4578322 |
| Subject: RE: Obama considering an executive order on gun control tealeaf - 2013-01-14 3:02 PM Kido - 2013-01-14 5:46 PM TriRSquared - 2013-01-14 2:38 PM Automatic weapons are a non-issue. Already illegal in 99.99% of cases. I'm wondering when the last time an automatic weapon was actually used in a publicized crime? I think it was the LA shootout. Clearly, making certain types guns of illegal has no impact on their likelihood to be used by criminals. That is a good point tealeaf. Looking at the numbers though it's a little misleading I think. I can't prove these numbers but from what I've been able to gather there are between 250,000 and 300,000 fully automatic weapons owned by law abiding citizens. There are around I think 40,000,000 AR15's and that is only a percentage of rifles in the USA I have no idea how many rifles there are in the USA, a hundred million, two hundred million, I don't know. I do know that the total people killed with a rifle was under 400 in 2011. That is a pretty small percentage of people who are killed by firearms overall, the AR15 is a subset of of the rifle category. The only info I could find on automatic weapons being used was gang related and two incidents involving police officers who used their department issued automatic weapons in anger/criminally. One of the reasons machine guns/automatic weapons are not used often is cost, not only of the weapon itself which may or may not be cost prohibitive but the cost of use,,,,, at 30 cents a round or more that adds up pretty quick. |
| 2013-01-14 5:42 PM in reply to: #4578322 |
Pro 15655 | Subject: RE: Obama considering an executive order on gun control tealeaf - 2013-01-14 5:02 PM Kido - 2013-01-14 5:46 PM TriRSquared - 2013-01-14 2:38 PM Automatic weapons are a non-issue. Already illegal in 99.99% of cases. I'm wondering when the last time an automatic weapon was actually used in a publicized crime? I think it was the LA shootout. Clearly, making certain types guns of illegal has no impact on their likelihood to be used by criminals. Actually, it pretty much guarantees they will ONLY be used by criminals....see how that works? |
| 2013-01-14 6:15 PM in reply to: #4578168 |
| Regular 147 | Subject: RE: Obama considering an executive order on gun control RookieIM - 2013-01-14 3:54 PM tuwood - 2013-01-10 8:28 AM I seem to recall several Obama supporters going on and on last year before the election about how Obama doesn't want to take away our guns. lol I really wanted to avoid entering this "conversation." But I'm tired of this rhetoric and fear mongering about "King Obama" taking away anyone's guns. Removing automatic weapons? Yes. High capacity magazines enabling body counts to be significantly higher? Yes. Enhanced background checks? Yes. Military style assault weapons that even military generals agree should not be in the hands of civilians? Yes. removing all firearms from all citizens? Never once has he said that. If you want to have a real, intelligent, adult level debate use actual facts. Don't make them up. Isn't that why our founding fathers specified that citizens have a natural/legal right to bear arms. I understand that there currently is little/no need for citizens to protect themselves from the government. Unfortunately, I have absolutely no idea if that will be the case in 50 years. Do you? ETA: Why isn't the POTUS take on drunk driving with the same vigor as he does gun control? In 2009, there were 10,839 fatalities in crashes involving a driver with a BAC of .08 or higher – 32 percent of total traffic fatalities for the year. Edited by riltri 2013-01-14 6:21 PM |
| 2013-01-14 6:40 PM in reply to: #4578419 |
Elite 4547 | Subject: RE: Obama considering an executive order on gun control riltri - 2013-01-14 7:15 PM RookieIM - 2013-01-14 3:54 PM tuwood - 2013-01-10 8:28 AM I seem to recall several Obama supporters going on and on last year before the election about how Obama doesn't want to take away our guns. lol I really wanted to avoid entering this "conversation." But I'm tired of this rhetoric and fear mongering about "King Obama" taking away anyone's guns. Removing automatic weapons? Yes. High capacity magazines enabling body counts to be significantly higher? Yes. Enhanced background checks? Yes. Military style assault weapons that even military generals agree should not be in the hands of civilians? Yes. removing all firearms from all citizens? Never once has he said that. If you want to have a real, intelligent, adult level debate use actual facts. Don't make them up. Isn't that why our founding fathers specified that citizens have a natural/legal right to bear arms. I understand that there currently is little/no need for citizens to protect themselves from the government. Unfortunately, I have absolutely no idea if that will be the case in 50 years. Do you?
Our founding fathers had no clue how powerful firearms would be in the 21st century. To think otherwise is quite a stretch. In the 18th century, in an agrarian society, in sparsely populated lands, the right to bear arms by well-regulated militias was very important...in the 21st century, a good argument could be made that the need isn't quite there. That said, unfortunately it will take a lot more than the Newtown massacre to allow real gun control to come to the United States. btw, riltri, do you really think AR-15's are going to protect you from an oppressive government? I know Red Dawn was a fun movie, but short of being allowed to stock an arsenal of RPG's, surface to air missiles, and your own air fleet...all the assault rifles in the world won't save you, us, etc. That said, the pro-gun folks here in BT make some good arguments against over-reaching gun control laws. Personally, I'd be tickled pink to see the first move "post-Newtown" to be mandatory, extremely long prison sentences for those who violate gun laws. With each massacre though, the outcry against guns will grow. It will be interesting to see how it plays out. p.s. thanks for the Homer Simpson clip! Ha! classic Simpsons...gotta love 'em!
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