n + 1 swim challenge (Page 7)

Swim 2 of 3 done (likely all I will get to this week).  Total 4250 meters, time 1:06.  Purpose was steady pacing and endurance (and counting to 10).

10 x 100 on 1:30
10 x 75 on 1:10
5 x 50 on :45
10 x 25 on :25
5 x 50 on :45
10 x 75 on 1:10
10 x 100 on 1:30

Swim on the way down the pyramid, pull on the way back up.
I used the first 3-4 100s as warmup with times in the 1:23-1:24 range then descended from there to 1:17s.
75s were pretty consistent :58s all the way through with the odd :57
50s were :37/:38
The second time through the 100s I was getting tired and had to focus a lot more. Times were right on 1:18 for all of them.

First Masters session in 10 months:

Masters - this is what I actually finished, not what was on the board :-)
2300 SCM
WU:  
700 choice (250 swim, 250 pull, 200 back)
4 x 50 push pace, :10 recovery
MS:  
4 x 50 back drill
8 x 75 free (1-4 swim, 5-8 pull) on roughly 1:40
8 x 50 back on about 1:45
4 x 50 free on 1:10

100 CD

About 1:15 total in the pool.

The Masters group I swim with is a bunch of really good long distance swimmers...I'm by far the weakest swimmer and thankfully everyone is nice about it.  :-)

My daughter's head coach is swimming the English Channel next summer, and the whole crew is doing the Potomac River swim in May (7.5 miles).

Oh, come on man!!! 

My plan is to finish this swim challenge, while increasing my run frequency in preparation for Shane's running group challenge.  (Are any of you going to do that? It sounds awesome, btw).  I'll then back off my swims to 4x/week and start with 3bikes/week. 

See?! There's a plan in there...somewhere. :)

I would be TOTALLY up for a n + 1 bike challenge, but I'm a total sucker for challenges.

Speaking of which, where in the hell is Dale? 

Really nice, Arend.

What's "back drill"?

Originally posted by switch

Originally posted by popsracer

Originally posted by MikeyP4

Originally posted by switch

Originally posted by MikeyP4

Originally posted by popsracer

Shame on me for just two swims a week. 

My thoughts exactly!!

Aww, thanks guys.  I'm pumped about it.

Did I mention I haven't been on my bike yet this year?

 

Sounds like an n+1 bike challenge might be next...

My thoughts exactly.

Well, that would be an improvement

My plan is to finish this swim challenge, while increasing my run frequency in preparation for Shane's running group challenge.  (Are any of you going to do that? It sounds awesome, btw).  I'll then back off my swims to 4x/week and start with 3bikes/week. 

See?! There's a plan in there...somewhere.

I would be TOTALLY up for a n + 1 bike challenge, but I'm a total sucker for challenges.

Speaking of which, where in the hell is Dale? 

 

I have a ton of good bikes sets I could share.

Our coach calls them wrist flips...it's almost like a catch up drill in backstroke.  During your recovery you bring your arm up until it's 90 degrees, pause, do some funny things with your hands, and then finish.   It looks like some really bad synchronized swimming. 

OK, OK.  When do you guys want to start?  Can we wait until after this swimming challenge?

I am noticing a majority of sessions made up of lots of 50's, 75's, and 100's instead of sets of longer like 200-500's.  I tend to do longer sets.  Should I be doing more shorter stuff and why?  How do you pace these shorter sets when you are doing like 50 of them?

It's the same reason that 1-4minute intervals are good for your bike and run instead of just doing 20 minute intervals all the time.  Building your VO2, which comes from those short, intense efforts helps build your threshold a ton.  

Yup, shorter harder intervals are the way to go.  VO2 (high effort, longer rest) and Threshold (not as high as VO2 but a strong effort with short rest) work.  I do 200s semi regularly but it would be pretty rare to do much more than that.

This is where I start getting confused, as almost all of the fish recommend sprint/hard/faster than LT sets.  But I think it's, at least partly, because that helps you learn better technique.

Here's what Swim Smooth says about swimming at LT/CSS:

For distance swimmers - including open water athletes and triathletes - one physiological factor is all important: your lactate threshold. If you can improve your lactate threshold speed your race speeds will improve. Your ability to sprint or work anaerobically above threshold is largely irrelevant in distance swimming and triathlon. So is your ability to lift heavy weights.

Here's the secret: To improve your lactate threshold you want to do your quality swim sets at your current threshold pace or just below it. Many athletes make the mistake of training above lactate threshold in short sharp swim sets - that isn't nearly as effective. We'll explain more about getting that right below.

For most swimmers, the change to CSS sets will mean more swimming and less recovery.

http://www.swimsmooth.com/training.html

I think that's pretty much right.  Threshold is what is going to get you the most swim speed in a triathlon but I don't think you can completely ignore the sprinting/anaerobic work.  It's the same as on the bike, you want to improve your threshold power but to do so you have to do some Vo2max work as well.  

I don't do a lot of all out sprinting, maybe a set of 10-16 x 25 once in a while.  If you look at the set I did this morning, that was pretty much entirely right around my threshold pace or just a touch faster.

I guess I've always approached my workouts with form development as primary focus and did not think about the engine much.  Figured I get most of that with my run/bike sessions.  I still work pretty hard in the water but in my mind it's all about improving my form and efficiency.  In my mind, if I'm doing a little longer sets I have more continuous time to hone things in.  Sounds like this isn't the best way. 

How do you establish threshold pace?

Just read the link.  I hate tt's

People don't care if you throw up after a 5k but hate it when you do it in the pool.

The CSS TT is just a 400 and a 200.  You can get close enough without summoning the pukage :)

If you swim the 400  10 sec slower than absolute all-out max, and the 200 5 sec slower than absolute all-out max, I think it would compute your TSS ~ 2 sec/100 slower (based on the speeds you have posted--I think you and I are pretty similar swimmers, and I've played with the CSS numbers quite a bit. Yes, I'm a dork).  So you could adjust like that if you wanted to.  Kinda like not wanting to really do a 1RM at the gym; back it down to 95% and then calculate CSS based on that.

So how do I construct a workout based on my threshold pace?  Let's assume a 1:35/100 score.  Am I doing like 10 x 100 at that pace or something below?  And how much rest? 

It's important to look at the construction of the set, not just the length or presence of intervals. 2 x 20' on the bike is a pair of 20 minute intervals, but it most certainly a threshold set. 5 x 5' could be done in a few ways. With 1' recovery it's a threshold effort, just above actually. With 3-5 minutes recovery it'll be a VO2 focused workout. Take mile repeats in running, and say 1' recovery. Threshold work using cruise intervals. Use ~4:1 ratio to convert to swimming and get 400 repeats with swimming, 1' recovery. Kinda big interval, so cut it down to 200's with 30", or 100's with 15". And now we're looking at work to recovery ratios that should be very familiar. VO2 focused work is going to have rest something like 50-100% of the work interval. Anaerobic will have more still, like 2:1. These are more rough guidelines as it's quite possible to at least briefly be more one than another. There are certainly differences between the sports, but we don't have to relearn everything entirely.

ETA: The faster swimming is necessary to develop those systems as well, but also to just learn how to go faster and more effectively. Or maintain being able to go that fast for some. I've learned quite a bit about improving technique by doing so.

There are other ways to get an idea of it as well.  You probably already have a half decent idea of what pace you could hold for something like a 1000 TT.  Based on that rough idea, try a set of 10 x 100 where you are finishing each 100 at a slightly faster pace than what you would do for the 1000 and take 5-10s rest.  For example if you think you can do a 1:45/100 pace for a 1000 (so 17:30) then do:

10 x 100 on 1:50 and try to finish each 100 around 1:42-1:43 (giving you 7-8s rest).  The first few should feel fairly easy, the middle ones a bit tougher and then by the last couple you have to work it pretty hard, you can hold things together but wouldn't want to have to do very many more.  If that's how it feels then your 1:45/100 guess is probably pretty good.  If you can get through the whole thing without too much trouble then next time try to hit 1:40-1:41 for the 100s.  By experimenting a bit like that, you'll find a point where going faster than a certain pace means you start to tire very quickly whereas if you keep it just slower then you can maintain it for quite a while.

Once you find that pace, spend a lot of time swimming at or around it with short rest.

Originally posted by switch

Originally posted by msteiner

Originally posted by switch

Originally posted by popsracer

Originally posted by MikeyP4

Originally posted by switch

Originally posted by MikeyP4

Originally posted by popsracer

Shame on me for just two swims a week. 

My thoughts exactly!!

Aww, thanks guys.  I'm pumped about it.

Did I mention I haven't been on my bike yet this year?

 

Sounds like an n+1 bike challenge might be next...

My thoughts exactly.

Well, that would be an improvement

My plan is to finish this swim challenge, while increasing my run frequency in preparation for Shane's running group challenge.  (Are any of you going to do that? It sounds awesome, btw).  I'll then back off my swims to 4x/week and start with 3bikes/week. 

See?! There's a plan in there...somewhere.

I would be TOTALLY up for a n + 1 bike challenge, but I'm a total sucker for challenges.

Speaking of which, where in the hell is Dale? 

 

I have a ton of good bikes sets I could share.

OH boy.  This is really gathering some momentum. 

OK, OK.  When do you guys want to start?  Can we wait until after this swimming challenge?

I've been at n+1 for a few months on that one?

I don't know how much of a difference a 10 sec RI v a 15 sec RI makes, but it certainly feels different to me at this stage.  I can do a 30 x 100 w/ 15 sec RI 4-5 sec/100 below my CSS, but if I shorten that RI up, I can't hold that for all 30. 

I think one of the challenges of the CSS, is keeping it that slow when you feel good, butI  think it helps you get familiar with that pace, which is probably pretty close to where we'll be racing for olys and HIMs.